Some faults in SPWAW and some anecdotes about american heroism!

SPWaW is a tactical squad-level World War II game on single platoon or up to an entire battalion through Europe and the Pacific (1939 to 1945).

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Tombstone
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Post by Tombstone »

I hope this thread gets closed soon. From it we should start one about night fighting, one for people who want to participate in the snowball fight, and one to discuss the use of historical data.

Something to note: Late in the war Russia wasn't just about more men and material. Russia was able to accomplish operational goals that are respectable from any standpoint. At the end of 1943 the Russians knew better than any country on the planet how war on that scale should be waged. Although they appeared to be a steamroller that was unstoppable (and for the most part they were) they were also a very well organized machine capable of planning multiple consecutive operations. The Russians front was the real show of WW2, and the transformation the Soviet army had to undergo was very impressive.

Hmm, that's another thread worth spawning off this not-so-worthy thread.

Tomo
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Post by Wild Bill »

"About the later units of the "Volksturm" which consisted mainly of 14 to 18 year old youth, there isnt much to say, if people like AmmoSgt and Sven think, these untrained kids were the average german soldiers and then blame their ability to stand up and die heroically in a lost war, i can only wonder about a certain mental disfuncionality." (Quote from Jaques)

Did you ever wonder why Germany was forced to use soldiers of 14-18 year of age. What happened to the other more well trained veterans? They must have gotten killed somewhere.

As to the phrase "mental disfunctionality," I consider that out of place on this forum.

Address the issues, Jaques, don't insult the contributors. Attack the issues, not people.

The same can be said for all of us. Let's keep this civil, even if we disagree, or we'll just shut it down.

Wild Bill

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]
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Post by Nikademus »

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
IF you turn movement radius to "B" you get a 'darkened' backround with the moves lit up in lighter color - I think it switches in "night" games. That is teh best we can do in SP:WAW...

yeah, have been doing that. So thats as good as we can do eh? ah well, it was a thought. But given what you guys have done for the infantry combat system i'd gladly play a night battle in movement radius "A"


:D
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Post by Wild Bill »

Thank you for answering my post, Jaques.

I really don't know what else to say or if it is worth saying. But I'll add a few thoughts and then try to be quiet.

A lot of time and words have been expended on this topic, much like the ammo you mention being used in reference to Desert Storm. ;) (lotta "duds")

You have certainly livened things up around here. :eek:

When, however, the guns are silent, and the smoke clears from this battlefield, I feel fairly certain that your point of view (to which you are fully entitled) will remain unchanged.

Mine (which is not that of an army of Supermen, but armies with ordinary men of extraordinary courage - on all sides) will also remain unchanged.

Whatever conclusion you choose, the fact is clear that the Axis powers lost the war. For whatever reason you attribute to that fact, it remains that it was a good thing.

It was also terrible for the innocents of ALL, I repeat, ALL countries with more than 50 million in Europe, Asia, the Pacific and Russia who were caught up in the firestorm known as WW2.

No country has supermen. They are in cartoons and comic books.

All countries have heroes, men of courage, men ready to sacrifice, men willing to die for their fellow soldiers and their beliefs.

I don't see how anyone could deny that fact. History confirms it through all the centuries of man's existence.

A lively posting here, to say the least.

Wild Bill
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Post by General Mayhem »

Originally posted by Jaques Rico:
@ Belisarius



First at all, my point was not, which soldiers were the best, I merely stated that Americans often overrate their own troops.

It is nice to see that some of them are able to look objective at this matter.

But if you truely compare the aces on both sides there are some discrepancies. For example the best american fighter pilot has 48 kills, the best german 352. The 10 best german fighter pilots shot down 2588 allied machines. What do you think is the number for the 10 best american pilots?
The best german tank commander Wittman destroyed 141 tanks and 132 antitank guns. I dont know offhand who was the best allied tank commander and if he was even american, but I doubt that he could match those numbers.

Sorry for any misunderstandings
JR
Well, I think comparison is not fair.
Germans were lot longer fighting in air than any other nation and they were also shooting down many years allied bombers. Germans also shot down lot of obsolete airplanes for example in Russian.
I think best ratio what comes to downed planes per used plane propably has Finland.
Or so I've understood. Which would make Finnish Air force most effective in Second World War, not Germany if we use numbers alone.

What comes to tank, similar things apply there too. Germans also destroyed lot of obsolete tanks, like Russian B7's in great numbers. On the other hand, everybody who fought against Germans fough against atleast equal opponent what came to tanks and airplanes for a very long time.

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: General Mayhem ]
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Post by RolandRahn_MatrixForum »

Originally posted by Jaques Rico:
@ Belisarius


But if you truely compare the aces on both sides there are some discrepancies. For example the best american fighter pilot has 48 kills, the best german 352. The 10 best german fighter pilots shot down 2588 allied machines. What do you think is the number for the 10 best american pilots?

JR
Ahem.

1st:
Both Japan and Germany used their aces on the front until they were killed or so exhausted that they had to take a rest (and be send back into action as soon as possible).
The western allies used their aces more effectively by using them as instructors for new pilots. As a result, an allied ace flew fewer missons than an axis ace.

2nd:
Hartman achieved his victories on the eastern front. Do you think that Stalins purges did not affect the performance of the soviet air force?
Of the 352 victories credited to him, how many were superior planes like the P51?
(According to my source 4 over Polesti and 2 over Bucharest)

I do not deny that Hartmann was an excellent pilot.
And *maybe* the top german aces were better pilots than the top allied aces - due to the fact that the few germans who survived had the opportunity to get more experience than the top allied aces.
If you look at the average pilot, you will discover that the avrerage allied pilot received more training than the average axis pilot (except for a short period at the start of WWII).

Kind regards,
Roland
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m10bob
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Post by m10bob »

so i'm just sittin' there in the basement of the Hofbrauhaus having a damn good time since mr nixon said i'd "learned my lesson",and said i could go to germany dye-reckt from bien hoa,(where i felt like the only rabbit in a rabbit hunt)...so now,here i was with this honey on my big American arm,all suntanned and all,just sippin' my brau,when over comes this big(heavy)pink cheeked slathering,drooling drunken fool who sez "you-American?"..suspecting it was my larger than european muscular build,my height(noticeable even when sitting),or maybe my American haircut(sidewall Ranger cut),i went ahead and answered "ja,Americanishe"......my new friend sits across from me and breathing heavily and happily sez "yes'i know Americans well!!!in 1945,here in munich,i hatt PANZERFAUST,and i kill American TANKS!!!!YES!!!......the cretin was proud of his accomplishment and the thing is,past the desire to return to recently set aside "abilities"?,i felt sorry that this fool,in his 50's(on that day),was probably telling me about the ONLY thing he ever did for ANYBODY....just a waste of flesh.......he was so proud of what he had done all those years ago.....j.r....i'm not mad at ya....hell,you might be my brother!!!!see,my dad was there,and he got to meet a lot of fellas from the 3rd fallshirmerjager,2nd and 17th SS,352nd,ad infinitum,and he survived that war and as a single men,well,he had to date SOMEONE after the war..RIGHT?????so like i said,you might be my brother.....now,i can't call yuh anything "affectionate" like REMF,or anything,cuz even that would indicate you had been SOMEWHERE near a real battlefield,and i suspect you were a company clerk,or maybe supply,somewhere...i imagine yuh even soiled yer brithes at "the Graf" .....now this nice "FORUM is put together for a bunch of good people who share common interests in wargaming,or just like history..but it has no place for prejuidice..you can take it down the road.we don't need it....a lot of America IS GERMAN..in fact,it's the ONLY country in the world with people from EVERY country in the world.....(rent the movie "Stripes"..watch it..rewind...watch it again.....look for the hidden message)....now,"aus den weg,ashloch".
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Post by jappe »

Roland you wrote:
Hartman achieved his victories on the eastern front. Do you think that Stalins purges did not affect the performance of the soviet air force?
Of the 352 victories credited to him, how many were superior planes like the P51?
(According to my source 4 over Polesti and 2 over Bucharest)

I do not deny that Hartmann was an excellent pilot.
And *maybe* the top german aces were better pilots than the top allied aces - due to the fact that the few germans who survived had the opportunity to get more experience than the top allied aces.
If you look at the average pilot, you will discover that the avrerage allied pilot received more training than the average axis pilot (except for a short period at the start of WWII).

Actually Soviet pilots were not that bad, at least after 1942. They had learned air war hard way.

About planes. P51 was not superior plane compared to Soviet ones. The Migs, Yaks and Laggs (later models) were actually very good planes, this is a fact that usually gets ignored because there isn't much good info about Soviet planes in the west. Those few P51s that Hartmann shot down were actually "accidents" because Hartmann mainly fought at eastern front, but as the fighting moved more and more over Germany the Soviet and US planes got into same area. Actually there have been few incidents were Soviet planes attacked P51 because of misidentification and if I remember correctly also US planes have opened fire against Soviets.

There have been many discussions about the best German pilot and mostly about Hartmann. What makes Hartmann so good then? Hartmann knew what fights to fight. He picked up planes from dives and never left to dogfight. So Hartmann probably was not the best pilot but he surely was a great tactician.

German pilots fought whole war from start to end. That makes lot of missions, probability to get shot down also increases and of course probability to get killed. Hartmann was shot down several times, also Rudel (stuka pilot) was shot down several times, he has the most combat missions flown (over 2500). So those who could survive the hell of war were skilled pilots or just very lucky ones. This same by the way applies also to Finnish and Soviet pilots, they fought the whole war, no pretermined number of missions and then home, which allies had (actually I'm not sure was this true for British pilots). We have no way of knowing how many victories allied (western) pilots could have had if they had fought whole war and by comparing how skilled pilots were only looking at how many kills they achieved is not the truth.

-Jappe
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Post by darroch »

I think Wild Bill's last post captured this pretty well.

To Whom It May Concern:

JR hit an emotional topic for me when he made the insulting reference to the WW2 tankers who ran from their first Tiger encounter - and by inference, insulted pretty much every soldier whoever served in the US Army.

When I think of all the brave men he so casually smeared, it really got to me...

I'm ashamed to realize that I fired back at JR with the same sort of "German stereotypes" approach he used to insult US soldiers.

I'm sorry if I offended SPWAWers from Germany/Austria. I behaved as rudely as JR.

JR, I sure hope you take your "anecdotes" elsewhere...they are very negative.

I would much rather wade through the arcane details of how to model infantry use of lousy weather to cover attacks than read any more of your "anecdotes"...

If you take the time to read the dedication in the front of the SPWAW manual, to people of all countries who fought and died in WW2, (By Wild Bill) maybe you'll realize that most of us here honor ALL of the soldiers who answered the call of duty and paid the ultimate price - no matter what country they fought for.

Landser/GI/Tommy/Ivan/etc...

weren't they all pretty much victims of the likes of Stalin and Hitler and Mussolini?

What's the point in jeering at them now?
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Post by Easy8 »

Thank you for answering my post, Jaques.
I really don't know what else to say or if it is worth saying. But I'll add a few thoughts and then try to be quiet.

A lot of time and words have been expended on this topic, much like the ammo you mention being used in reference to Desert Storm. (lotta "duds")

You have certainly livened things up around here.

When, however, the guns are silent, and the smoke clears from this battlefield, I feel fairly certain that your point of view (to which you are fully entitled) will remain unchanged.

Mine (which is not that of an army of Supermen, but armies with ordinary men of extraordinary courage - on all sides) will also remain unchanged.

Whatever conclusion you choose, the fact is clear that the Axis powers lost the war. For whatever reason you attribute to that fact, it remains that it was a good thing.

It was also terrible for the innocents of ALL, I repeat, ALL countries with more than 50 million in Europe, Asia, the Pacific and Russia who were caught up in the firestorm known as WW2.

No country has supermen. They are in cartoons and comic books.

All countries have heroes, men of courage, men ready to sacrifice, men willing to die for their fellow soldiers and their beliefs.

I don't see how anyone could deny that fact. History confirms it through all the centuries of man's existence.

A lively posting here, to say the least.

Wild Bill

WB, thanks for adding some well needed brevity to this thread. I could not have stated it better.
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Post by Charles2222 »

sven: Just now is the first time I've read this thread. I think in the other thread you must've mistaken me for this character as I never talked mano Sherman/Tiger battles or indeed about your wanting to dumb down 39-42 German forces.
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Post by Tombstone »

Hilarious.

Tomo
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Post by Charles2222 »

What's hilarious about it Tomo? I assume my post brings this hilarity?
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Post by sven »

Originally posted by Charles_22:
What's hilarious about it Tomo? I assume my post brings this hilarity?

Charles I believe Tomo was saying that the 'gentleman' who started the thread is hilarious, and that you actually finding him a bit overboard is ironic.

I mean no offense.

regards,
sven
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Post by pbhawkin1 »

Hi all,

Well from an 'allied' point of view, the Americans in WW2 who came to Australia were disparagingly referred to as:

"over paid, over sexed and over here!" :D

BUT without them being here Australia (And the Pacific) was almost certainly a lost cause. So much so in fact that due to their efforts Australia had a major political and socio/economic shift away from being 'just a colony' of 'mother England to aligning itself at many levels with the US.

However, it still doesn't stop the Australian character (especially the diggers) from having a jibe at them (or others).

regards

Peter (Capt)
RAAMC ;) ;)
Regards
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Post by Rhodan »

I think anyone that is dumb enough to put an X on the spot because old men feel threatened and go to war...

I feel that anyone that is willing to risk death or life long physical handicaps for such phrases as 'honor' and 'duty...

I feel that anyone that is mutilated for the rest of his life and finds out that the same country that put him in harms way , suddenly has forgotten about honor and rather not be remembered what atrocities it put it's young men in , in the name of 'honor' and 'duty'..

I feel that anyone that picked up a weapon and blew the light out of the eyes of the other guy, not because he had a quarrel with that person, but because he was told to...

I feel that anyone that still wakes up in the middle of the night at the age of 80-90+ because he had nightmares over a man he shot 60 years ago...

I feel that anyone like that is a hero.

I think that any dead son is a hero in his mother's eyes.

I also think that until the time comes we pay our soldiers, regardless of nation, the highest possible wages for seriously risking their life and health, that those of us that never did pick up a weapon and had to kill someone else in the name of 'duty', ought to keep that hole in their skull shut tight.

After all it's their sacrifice, regardless of nation, that enabled all these 'experts' to comment on their actions.

So, may I suggest that unless you have been there and fought there, unless YOU shot down a tank or plane or blew a man's gut's out...you remain very very quiet about someone's honor and courage?


Thanks,

Rho
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Post by AJH »

Just a few quick thoughts on comparing armies...
Large American armies, like most democracies, have traditionally been citizen armies with a small cadre of experienced professionals. Junior officers in conflicts such as WWII got 'on the job training', and many learned the hard way. While this somewhat lessened in the Cold War, it will happen again if another large conflict erupts. The military in Germnay and other European nations has a bit more tradition, and has generally been a more acceptable career choice (although this has varied by era-good gentlemen in 18th century Britain generally frowned on az military career-a fact that helped the birth of our nation to some extent). When our soldiers are through fighting, they go home, not back to the barracks. Germany by 1939 had a reasonably seasoned force, with reserves who had served in either the Hitler Youth (a quasi-military social org) or had served and been sent into reserve status. The officer corps had many seasoned vets from WWI, when they served as junior officers either in the field or the fine General Staff. The Amwerican officer corps was far smaller and far less experienced. It is not our tradition (again, unitl the Cold War) to have a large professional standing army.

In some ways these two armies are apples and oranges...it has been acknowledged by the American military (I am thinking of Trevor Dupuy's excellent study) that the German soldier outperformed his allied counterpart, in almost every situation. If Germany had possibly had a chance to frequently get 10-1 odds in combat situations, are you saying they would have declined? Why did German soldiers consistently envy Allied artillery and air support(great accounts in 'Frontsoldaten' among other books)? Surely Germany had more concern for the life of her soldiers, unlike than the accusations German generals cosistently made about Russian tactics after the war. No veteran who it has been my honor to meet would ever bypass the chance to eliminate enemy resistance and not have sacrifice their own men, if at all possible. What you call mock heroism is common sense to many. This is true even in ancient times. Thucydides shows us that stealth and intelligence are often weapons that are just as capable as others. So is economic power, and thus were we able to gain our '10-1 odds'. When combined with advances in technology that had an industrial infrastructure to apply it, Germany realistically faced long odds, however heroic and professionally competent her armies were.
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Post by Greenlake »

Yep, Americans suck at warfare, you're right.

But is that a bad thing?

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Green ]
Greg McCarty
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Post by Greg McCarty »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaques Rico:
[QB]@ Belisarius



First at all, my point was not, which soldiers were the best, I merely stated that Americans often overrate their own troops.

It is nice to see that some of them are able to look objective at this matter.

--------------------------------------------

Honestly, I don't know why so many continue to patronize this line of reasoning. The guy
waltzes in here portraying himself as being
concerned about some game details, and then
proceeds to use the forum to drag out a bunch
of annoying personal head-baggage about how
we (Americans) feel about ourselves --as though he feels a pressing need to show us
that self-esteem, however misguided or poorly
deserved is something we cant indulge in.

And the thing that really ticks me off is the
the arrogant assumption on his part that people in this forum (of all places) are ignorant of a truthfull perspective on the
American role in WWII.

I strongly suspect there are more than a few
people present here who could teach a credible course on Military history at the college level. I personally have been studying it since 1956, and there is damned
little anyone can tell me and many of us about the realities of what took place on
the European continent between 1900 and the present. And in particular, about what
Americans may or may not have brought to that
table.

This notion that those of us that have taken the time to learn this game and the complex history that surrounds it would still believe
in some stereotypical crap about American
performance; well, its simply repugnant.

Now I don't know what gum-snapping products of the failed American public school system helped JR formulate his opinion of us or
how we think of ourselves, but surely it wasn't anyone from this group.

JR: Go take a pill.

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Greg McCarty ]
Greg.

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than to live on your knees.

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NateD
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Post by NateD »

Poor taste in words and poor timing. Sorry for leaving that post up as long as it was.


:(

[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: NateD ]
Nate,

"Sometimes descretion is the better part of valor."
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