Some faults in SPWAW and some anecdotes about american heroism!

SPWaW is a tactical squad-level World War II game on single platoon or up to an entire battalion through Europe and the Pacific (1939 to 1945).

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Hortlund
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Post by Hortlund »

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
I would like to take this opportunity to point out some simple statistics ...[SNIP]


While I do not dispute your facts and statistics, I would like to make a couple of observations:

1) The allies on the western front had total air supremacy, not merely air superiority. The effects of this on German ability to maneuver, attack or defend has been well documented by many. Simple fact of the matter is that any German division trying to move during daylight would take approx 20% losses from allied air attacks.

2) Allied artillery were in a whole different class than the German artillery. More guns, better guns and more ammunition.

3) The Allies outnumbered the Germans. More men, more tanks, more planes, more guns.

4) 1-3 above is in my opinion the main reason why the allied were able to drive from Normandy almost all the way to Berlin with 80.000 killed or captured vs 1.000.000 Germans killed or captured. This became increasingly apparent the longer the war dragged on. In 45, when any US unit came upon a defensive German position they stayed put and called in arty or air to turn the defensive positions to dust before moving in to capture the few survivors.

5) I do not think that it is fair to use these statistics to claim that US soldiers were better disciplined or had higher morale. To me, it is a simple fact that the war in the west was fought and won with arty and airpower.

6) The Bulge, one look at a map shows that it is a defenders dream and an attackers nightmare. Sure it was 27 German divisions, but most of these divisions were third rate at best, and the remainders had practically no fuel. Sure it was a short distance to the German supply depots, but a) these depots were practically empty, and b) the supplies had to be transported through roads that can only be described as a logistical nightmare. The supplies might as well have been located on the far side of the moon.

Steve

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Panzerjaeger Hortlund ]
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sven
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Post by sven »

Originally posted by Marder:
I´m from austria (which was a part of the third reich) and my grandfathers served in the german army. Both don´t talk a lot about that.

They don´t talk about heros in their platoons or their killing rate, the only thing my grand father said, that three man of 150 in his company survived the last 3 month of the war (the most were between 14 and 18). He was one of the lucky. No heros, no glory, he has seen many colleges which were transformed into mood after hitten by artillery-shells. And they don´t tell stories about american tanks which they destroyed herorically with their panzerfausts, one after the other. ("in the end we were afraid to shoot with them, because some were damaged/sabotaged and some died because of exploded panzerfaust´s when you fired it")

And what is fact, the allies won the war(thank god, i´m glad about that). And the guy who give up this post is in my opinion someone who has never studied war and read his articels in right corner magazines. Sorry about writing in this way, but i wanna show you out there, that there are people in germany or austria who are not thinking in his way!

I´m happy that i can play such a game at the computer and not in reality in the steppes of russia or somewhere else!

Marder

Marder I would like to thank you for your post. Your English was fine, and is far better than my German. You hit a very important point.

regards,
sven
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Post by Supervisor »

To George PJ Hortlund & Marder thanks for you well-informed & reasoned posts.

For those who like to disparage or downplay the US Army's effectiveness in WW2 I suggest reading "The GI Offensive in Europe" by Peter Mansoor. This book puts to rest the myth that the US Army won only through the force of superior numbers & firepower. It also compares the relative strengths & weakness of the US Army against those of the German Army. Worthwhile reading!
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Post by AmmoSgt »

Hortland OK .. I am just saying that the US Army has a claim to be the Best in WW2 at least after mid 43.. and certainly by June 44. By Mid 43 we were beating the opponents and causing many more casualties than we were taking. And the Germans were surrendering in droves in both the east and the west fronts..
Yes the US defended the Contenintal US much more effectively than the Germans Defend Fortress Europa .. thats what Good Armies do, they defend the homeland, then they remove the threat .. The Germans declared war on US we were neutral .. we were inching towards war because the Germans were sinking neutral unarmed US vessels ... But even with that we held back ...
First you defend the Homeland, the US Army and the Navy did that well .. why didn't the German Army do that the German Navy? ... same Ocean same size east to west as west to east .. Don't complain about the Americans responding to the German declaring war by defending their own country better than the Germans defended theirs ..
I know this may sound a little silly to talk about defending the home land .. it seems funny some how to Actually think that the German Army could actually even Attack America well ..what did declaring war mean when Germany Declared .. that they were just going to be mad at us ? No it meant they wished to conquer the US, just like they had Conqured other nations they had declared war on .. and if the American Army was so bad why did it only take us about 11 months to have effective ground forces engaged in both across the Atlantic/ Mediterainian and across the Pacfic at Gudacanal .. That what real Armies do, they hunt down and destroy any threat to the Homeland ... if it does sound so funny to think Germany could do the same then quit thinking that they were a serious Professional Army .. they were political hacks and Officers by right of birth, with no Global reach to back the propaganda, and they were bullies ...Not Profesional West Point and Annapols Trained Professional Officers in command Of an Army not demoralized with a high suicide rate from shooting civilians and other "mud people" Wasting resources exterminating folks for racial reasons..
Yeah we had a Navy and an Airforce both of which did real good after that little sneak attack, and on very short notice ... just months after Pearl Harbor the Japanese Carriers were at the Bottom of the Pacific and the Happy time in the Atlantic was all but over .. the Point is it takes more than just sneak attack and a couple of decent combat systems to win a war..
You need troops that will fight not surrender, you need a nation that will back the Troops, You need professional Officer that put their troops welfare above political advancement and political expedency, and you need to be able to defend your own Borders, the US had all that.
The Germany Army was sold out from day one by it's own Officer Corp that was more concerned with Personal position and looting and raping the locals .. small wonder the troops followed suite ..
The Officers that new Better died trying to overthrow their own Goverment or switched sides Like Paullus..Yeah Ok the germans made a couple thousand decent tanks .. that does not make an Army Great .
Succesfully defending the Homeland does ..Successfully removing any Threat to the Homeland Does ... and doing it with a certain regard for human diginity and Military Honor does..The US Army did all that .. the German Army did not
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
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Post by Christopher »

Originally posted by Marder:
I´m from austria (which was a part of the third reich) and my grandfathers served in the german army. Both don´t talk a lot about that.

They don´t talk about heros in their platoons or their killing rate, the only thing my grand father said, that three man of 150 in his company survived the last 3 month of the war (the most were between 14 and 18). He was one of the lucky. No heros, no glory, he has seen many colleges which were transformed into mood after hitten by artillery-shells. And they don´t tell stories about american tanks which they destroyed herorically with their panzerfausts, one after the other. ("in the end we were afraid to shoot with them, because some were damaged/sabotaged and some died because of exploded panzerfaust´s when you fired it")

And what is fact, the allies won the war(thank god, i´m glad about that). And the guy who give up this post is in my opinion someone who has never studied war and read his articels in right corner magazines. Sorry about writing in this way, but i wanna show you out there, that there are people in germany or austria who are not thinking in his way!

I´m happy that i can play such a game at the computer and not in reality in the steppes of russia or somewhere else!

Marder
Couldn't agree more...
...sadly not enough people share this attitude towards war and ridiculous discussions such as this one.
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Belisarius
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Post by Belisarius »

Originally posted by Warrior:
Unless you'd prefer it that way, I suggest you remember that without the Americans there wouldn't be a Europe. Just a 1000-year Reich. But then, Europeans voted in the European Union, so it seems dictatorship is something desired.

Ouch, Warrior. That was uncalled for.
And I suppose you don't vote for Congress or Senate? ;)

Otherwise, I completely agree with you.
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Post by Jaques Rico »

Terror, :) there are a bit to much posts to answer, so I need to be selective. Sorry about that, but onlike Sven, I cant affort the time to live on the board.

@ Darroch

You want to know my point? Well then, I am just saying that despite american beliefs their soldiers werent the best and they werent definitly no heroes. I didnt say, that there were heroes on the german side, but the american opinion they won the wars alone and because of the superiority of their GI´s and marines is just plain crazy.

And if you look at the competence of the elite units the germans stood almost ever better than their adversaries. About the later units of the "Volksturm" which consisted mainly of 14 to 18 year old youth, there isnt much to say, if people like AmmoSgt and Sven think, these untrained kids were the average german soldiers and then blame their ability to stand up and die heroically in a lost war, i can only wonder about a certain mental disfuncionality.

And about the american belief of winning the war singlehandedly, WW2 wasnt lost in the west, it was lost in the east. Practically it was lost in the moment the attack on Russia began, because Germany would never had enough soldiers to occupy such a big country. It was simply a logistical impossibility.

And the american contribution to the result of WW1 is even less.

But I have to congratulate you on your knowledge about history. That is, as Ive often encountered it, not a common US trait. Just maybe a little correction, the treaty of Versailles is much more responsible for WW2 than the mentioned "Dolchstoßlegende". If Wilson would have been able to persuade the French and British to a more fair and tolerant treaty, we might never have seen a Third Reich. I personally doubt that Hitler would have been able to rise to power if that act had not created, or at least empowered, the revisionist tendencies in Germany.

@ Wild Bill

At least you said "the Allies" and not "the Americans". And to answer your question, the simplest answer would be: "Because they had the bigger economy." But you may of course say, that they had american wonder soldiers on their side, the best on the planet and in all the neightbouring galaxies.

Well, Iam a bit unfair now, Sven would speak so, but you would certainly put it in a bit more eloquent words.

@ El Vito

Thank you, you are a very good example to prove my point!

@ Warhorse and Paul Vebber

First something for Warhorse, I didnt say that the IIIj was the only tank with armored skirts, in fact I mentioned some others, I only said, that the IIIh didnt have any. And that is a fact. In the encyclopedia of Spwaw he is displayed with them, but he never had them. And I said that for that reason it is not possible to see if a system has armored skirts and if the game calculates them in. In my opinion there are to much first kills by side hits on such systems.

Ok, on to Penetration tables for Paul. I looked into the Tiger book for the correct penetration values of the Tiger tanks.

Tiger I 0m/500m/1000m/1500m/2000m/2500m
Book na/140/122/108/ 92/ 82
Spwaw 162/151/138/126/113/100
Tiger II
Book na/205/186/170/154/140
Spwaw 232/221/207/194/181/168

So you see, there are some discrepancies. My data is from "Wa Prüf 6, 1944, technische Daten von Panzerkampfwagen". So that are the orginial values determined by the german developers. Maybe you could look up how your source has determined the penetration values, perhaps they used a different steel...

@5th Recon

Ok, great hero, just a little question. In all the Vietnam movies the american platoons move in a very tight line, one soldier after the other, even when they went into battle. (The movie platoon springs to mind, and some others.) My question now, is that just fiction or were they truely stupid enough to act in such a way? :) Given from what Ive seen the amis do here in NATO-exercises it is possible.

@ AmmoSgt

Answer your email, or I have to assume your challenge was a fake.

@ Del

No, iam not confused. YOu can find the datas about the battle of Tebourba 01.-03.12.1942 in the Tiger book. It was the first battle for Tiger tanks in North Afrika.

@ George aka 2 f

Sagen wir doch einfach, daß mir diese amerikanische: "We are the best"-Altitude ein wenig auf die Nerven ging. Ein bißchen Zündeln muß erlaubt sein, zumindest solange man über Svens Niveau bleibt.

(Sorry about the 2 short german sentences.)

And George, if you dont know about german army activities outside our borders, that isnt so amazingly. There were some occasions, but since you nearly never hear about them in the media they are easy to miss. I will perhaps later this evening post a little list, to correct that assumption.

@ Panzerjäger Horlund

Just to your first anecdote, were the infantry units in it perhaps "Volksturm"-units? I think its unfair to expect great military miracles from 14 to 18 year old youth who hadnt barely a basic training and no experienced officers to lead them on.

And about the second episode, well the man was clearly a competent soldier.

@ Last but not least Jeff Norton

And thanks for your opinions.

Ok, on to it. I think that Germany would have lost the war even without the american intervention. It would have taken a bit longer for the russian war machine to overwhelm Germanys by sheer number but sooner or later they would have succeded. Since that would have meant, that Germany would have been ruled by Stalin (Even that would have been better than Hitlers victory, I believe.) I cant be to sorry that that was not the case.

However Germany didnt lose because of some american super heroes who rose to the occasion. You might remember Korea or Vietnam, some occasions where that american trait wasnt victorious.

You went over the combat course with rucksack and gun? Respect. We did of course the same, but the americans who were there at the same time went over the course barehanded and without their rucksacks. After that they gloated about being 10 to 15 seconds faster than us. I hope you can understand why we were a bit miffed at them.
And if I then have to read from people live Sven who sounds like he won WW1/2 and 3 alone, I hope you can understand that my sarcasm then shows.

Some facts about Desert Storm. Did you know that more than half of the american rockets malfunctioned before they reached their goals? And that another 20% of the remaining rocket clearly missed? Of course the outcome was secure, because the Americans simply shot enough rockets to make up for the losses. I just think it was not very efficient. :)
Or did you know that they needed to call in german mine clearers to remove the last mines, which their own people coudnt find? You never hear about such facts in the media. In america maybe because they dont want to diminish their own success and in Germany because they dont want that the population knows that we have army units outside the borders.

Each army has it faults, Jeff. I can easily name some of the german. I only hated it when some Americans carried on, like theirs would be spotless. I hope you understand.

Best wishes
JR
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sven
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Post by sven »

Sagen wir doch einfach, daß mir diese amerikanische: "We are the best"-Altitude ein wenig auf die Nerven ging. Ein bißchen Zündeln muß erlaubt sein, zumindest solange man über Svens Niveau bleibt.
---------------------------------------------

I sure do hate that you felt the need to hide behind a language barrier to take a swipe at me. Saying that the Germans(never the 'N' word)were not super men is not the same as saying that the Americans were. You sir are constructing a straw man.(and not even doing it very well)

I challenge you to find a post where I say that the Allies(including America) were Uber Soldiers. failing that I think that you are reading far too much into my satire on Power Gamer. Have it your way.

I refuse to say that the US was inferior to the germans because we refused to fight in the way they would have liked. We(the Allies including and indeed mostly on land Ivan) beat you, and it does not matter how we did it. I would rather we destroy every enemy village by artillery and air power rather than wipe out a generation of our men by being 'macho' and standing toe to toe with you guys.

If you really wanted to be a world power you would have looked at the writing on the wall when you elected Darth Shicklegruber to office in the first place. Memo to Germans: picking on either the US or USSR alone was not very smart, but picking on both of us was well.... STUPID! Your position is so vapid as to be laughable.

regards,(and best wishes)
sven
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Post by gdpsnake »

For every 'negative' American comment, I can think of an Audie Murphy. For every 'positive' German comment, I can think of a concentration camp.
War brings out the best and worst in people yet none of the best can erase a single worst. Pray God we never see another war no matter where or how fought.
I did my 20+ and thank others who served in any capacity but the military is no different than any other profession because they're all run by people and people are both good and brave, bad and cowardly.
But enough of the 'hook' JR, it's just a game and a great one! Everything can't be perfect. Fight the good fight with what you get!
Now where's that Pacific War game? 2002? So long a wait.............
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Post by Nemesis »

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
The simple fact is that from Normandy to Berlin the US took 80,000 Dead or Captured while inflicting over 1,000,000 Killed or Captured on the
When looking at those number you have to remember few things:

After the breakout from Normandy, ALOT of german troops got surrounded in wester France (Hitler wanted them to "Stand and Die"). I don't remember the actual figures, but it was alot. I don't remember that did those troops saw real action (some did). They could have just waited for the war to end (Like the germans in the Channel Islands did). Some of the german bases in western France were captured, but they were 100% surrounded & cut-off.

And German troops surrendered en masse during the last weeks of the war. I remember reading 100.000+ prisoners taken at some of the last battles.

No, I have no intention to diminish the american accomplishment. But one does have to remember the situation back then.

As to the "drive to Berlin"... Allies never reached Berlin. They had agreed that it was for the Soviets.
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Paul Vebber
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Post by Paul Vebber »

Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingston have spent literally decades researching material for their work on WW2 ballistics. They have taken various prinary sources such as you quote and compared armor quality and testing techniques to get a "apples to apples" comparison of armor and projectiles.

Period tests were done on different armor types by different countries to diferent penetration stadards. How does your source define penetration? As a 'full through crack' or deformation of a backing plate, or passage of the projectile in whole?

What percentage of the time did such penetration occur? 20, 50, 80?

Simply stating a gun "penetrates XXX mm of armor" is meaniingless unless you define the quality of armor and the percentage of the time the pentration occurs.

SP:WaW values are based on US 240 BHN rolled test plate penetration based on US Navy Ballistic Limit velocity (50% probabilitythat a good portion of the projectile passes completely through the plate).

I have no doubt your values are authentic, but they have little to do with how the rounds would actually perform in combat against other country's vehicles that are are not armored with German test plate. To determine that you have to use a common standard, not simply what each country publishes based on their own widely varying test proceedures.

Lorrin and Roberts Figures for 88L56 and 88L71 APCBC:

.....100...500...1000...1500...2000...2500
L56..162...151....138....126....116...106
L71..232...219....204....190....176...164

All penetration in SPWaW has a +/- 10% random factor on it so the differences between the SP:WaW values and the "standard" values derived over many years are typically within this error range.

Samller caliber shells diverge more becasue of the single range degradation equation the game uses.

As to effect of "skirts" how effective should they be? Based on what criteria? How you determine if they are undamaged? Or only partially present? You say you don't like a reduction from 31 of 35 to 16 of 37 in teh test I did, wht would make you happy? 0 of 37, 8 of 37? And based on what.

AS shaped charges got more powerful (like the one the M9 uses) the little skirts offered less and less protection. And once combat was joned, were rarely totally intact, allowing close range shots at vulnerable areas. If skirts did so much to defeat shaped charges, why where they not used extensively by other countries?

Because they just were't that effective...

[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]
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Nikademus
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Post by Nikademus »

Originally posted by A_B:
Silly me. As a relative newcomer, i put up a post about spotting in bad weather and at night, and how the game preferences could be tweaked to make it more realistic, especially since infantry use bad weather to their advantage, and 6.0 offers better inf. simulation. If this has been discussed before, i missed it. As a former 11B in the 82nd Abn., I know that weather and darkness will vastly affect inf. combat. Only problem is, almost no one wants to discuss the topic or enlighten me. A few did, including some of the Matrix folks (but hey, they're great guys, even though Mike W. response was a little snooty).

Instead, some bozo starts a thread like this one, and people respond in droves. Human nature i guess. From now on, I'll start any new thread, in which i have a serious question or discussion topic with the following;

The US Army sucks, always has, always will. Germans walked all over them any time they wanted to. Tigers are way better than Sherman’s, mano-y-mano. The loss at Stalingrad and Kursk was a fluke. I trained with US soldiers in Germany once, and they were all transvestites. The U.S. was once mean to Indians, and even now doesn't let them to open up Casino’s on their reservations. The only reason I'd ever consider sleepy with an American woman is because I'm too lazy to masturbate. The only life form that could possibly be considered lower than an American is a Californian. Oh, and by the way, what do you think of the way SPWAW handles spotting in poor weather and darkness?

To quote the kid From Indiana Jones and the temple of Doom

"Ha ha.....u funny!"

:p


I've been asking and clamoring for a more graphical based change for WAW to help simulate night combat but have gotten little response so i know how you feel.

It would be nice for "night battles" to look that way on the screen (instead of looking like its daylight) I hear Talonsoft did something like that with "Rising Sun" and was pretty neat to look at

I've played a few low visibility scenerios and as far as LOS goes, it seems fairly realistic.....in some places you might be able to see a couple hundred yards, others, nothing beyond the nose of your face (well, 50 yards at least)

what tweaks were you suggesting?
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Post by Paul Vebber »

IF you turn movement radius to "B" you get a 'darkened' backround with the moves lit up in lighter color - I think it switches in "night" games. That is teh best we can do in SP:WAW...
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Post by Nikademus »

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
Hey Jaques!

Nice to have you here. Your views are interesting.

All I can say is that the Allies won World War II. Can you believe that? I wonder how they did it. Any thoughts on that subject?

Wild Bill

My old high school buddy sure did.

He attributed the Allied victories in WWI and II too two simple reasons

Men and Material

the allies, (and the Russians in particular) simply had more men and materials.

Germany did nothing wrong. If only they'd made a few different choices. Things would be different.

Its nice to have a simple view on a complex subject
:p

In Jacques defence though, i will admit, that these days the flapjack of history has most definately "flipped" over and these days its the Germans (and the Japanese) that tend to get degraded. On other boards there have been similar type threads which have stated that the USA was awesome and Russians or no Russians, once the US was established on the continent it would have been "lights out" for the Wehrmacht.

The Japanese Army was if anything, held in contempt.

A 1945 "what if" war between the victorious USA and Soviet Union held similar views. The US and US airforce was totally superior, we'd have kicked their asses easily etc etc.

Needless to say i found myself in the awkward position of being devil's advocate against such unbridled patrioism and underestimation of the problem. After years of defending the US and Allies against the "men and materials" put down, it felt "wierd" to say the least

History really is like a flapjack, is'nt it?

(and personally i think this whole USA vs, Germany vs, thang is silly but some of the discussion allows good thoughtful dialogue so sometimes i play along)
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Post by Belisarius »

Originally posted by sven:
If you really wanted to be a world power you would have looked at the writing on the wall when you elected Darth Shicklegruber to office in the first place. Memo to Germans: picking on either the US or USSR alone was not very smart, but picking on both of us was well.... STUPID! Your position is so vapid as to be laughable.

regards,(and best wishes)
sven

My second replay that will stray off the target...apologies everyone, in advance.

First, I want to make it clear as crystal pepsi (heh, is it still available, btw?) that I agree with Sven and his replies here. I wish I had that ability to get my thoughts down. ;)

So it's time to veer off: Did the OKH really think that the US would enter the war in Europe? Megalomania and all, but could they really have been that dumb? Especially at a time where the eastern offensive had ground to a halt... (eh..it was the Germans that declared war on the US and not the other way around, right? :confused: )
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Post by TheZel66 »

more what ifs....

imagine if the French had actually taken a chance and played the 1940 invasion a little less cautious. They could have stomped the over matched Germans as quickly as the German did them in reality..

Or had the German forces committed Armor earlier in Normandy....

or....

That's the great thing about SPWAW, you can test the what if's until your power supply burns out...
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Post by Belisarius »

Oooh, so I'm not quite done yet... apparently.

I feel not a little contempt for Jacques' opinions about who's got the best soldiers. All fought and died for the same things, and I respect them for it. It won't do them justice to sit here today and argue which was the best.

Germans did have an advantage right after the invasion of being battle-hardened on the east front. But that was soon gained by the Allies as well...etc.

Now I stray away again: Many of you have served, or are in service, in the US Army. If I'm not completely wrong, the Allies used a rotational system for soldiers during WWII, right? NN months, 50 sorties etc, and you're going home. The Germans did not, which allowed them to gain comparatively a lot of battlefield experience (and fatigue). From what I've understood, this was somewhat of a drawback in Vietnam - experienced troops were constantly rotated back home and replaced with greens. Especially tough in SE Asia with a different nature and where knowledge of the surroundings are even more essential. Sooo... what do you service people prefer: Rotation or staying at the theatre of operations until it's over? Wasn't the latter emplied in the Gulf War?

'scuse my wandering mind.. but it'd be kinda nice to get your two cents on the subject.
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Post by A_B »

IF you turn movement radius to "B" you get a 'darkened' backround with the moves lit up in lighter color - I think it switches in "night" games. That is teh best we can do in SP:WAW...
Paul, i'll do that, that'll help with graphics. I'm not bitching about SP. I think the preferences will handle night fighting ok. I would like to see a consensous on settings. For example, a clear night spotting is 50%, a rainy night spotting is 30%, hitting in the rain is 90%, hitting at night is 60%. I've been doing some testing, and have these types of rules in the campaign i'm working on (first four battles are done, if anyone wants to have a go - McArthurs Battles; US Army vs. Japs)
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Post by Greenlake »

Rotation is mute for the US now. Unless we get into a major, global war and have to start conscripting men. And if that were the case, sure it's a heck of alot better to not have a bunch of green soldiers, but then again if you were on the battlefield for a year you would want to come home, wouldn't ya? :rolleyes:
Jaques Rico
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Dresden/Germany
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Post by Jaques Rico »

@ Belisarius
Belisarius wrote:
I feel not a little contempt for Jacques' opinions about who's got the best soldiers. All fought and died for the same things, and I respect them for it. It won't do them justice to sit here today and argue which was the best.
First at all, my point was not, which soldiers were the best, I merely stated that Americans often overrate their own troops.

It is nice to see that some of them are able to look objective at this matter.

But if you truely compare the aces on both sides there are some discrepancies. For example the best american fighter pilot has 48 kills, the best german 352. The 10 best german fighter pilots shot down 2588 allied machines. What do you think is the number for the 10 best american pilots?
The best german tank commander Wittman destroyed 141 tanks and 132 antitank guns. I dont know offhand who was the best allied tank commander and if he was even american, but I doubt that he could match those numbers.

Sorry for any misunderstandings
JR
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