Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy?

[kerog]

If you conquer France, the whole fleet goes over to the Allies right? That seems like a big con. What are the pros?

[Centuur]

The most important one: no cooperation between the CW and France for a long, long time (until Paris gets liberated).

[ssiviour]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The most important one: no cooperation between the CW and France for a long, long time (until Paris gets liberated).

But they can participate in the same Naval Combat and use the same Convoys. Since often Free France is reduced to nothing but naval units I don't really see this as a big issue, from the Allied perspective that is ....

[kerog]

Can French ships rebase to British ports?

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: kerog

If you conquer France, the whole fleet goes over to the Allies right? That seems like a big con. What are the pros?

NO

They are overrun instead

Besides, before this occurs the French player uses to surrender, and there are some subtleties that I cant remember right now but are important.

[ssiviour]

ORIGINAL: kerog

Can French ships rebase to British ports?

As I understand it, they can not stack with CW units, but if it's empty they can use Ports in CW Home Countries i.e UK, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, but not the Minors or Territories without a HQ for Foreign Troop Commitment.

[Joseignacio]

, but if it's empty they can use Ports in CW Home Countries i.e UK, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, but not the Minors or Territories without a HQ for Foreign Troop Commitment.

I understand this just the opposite.


Unless they are already considered Free France, in which case they could cooperate with CW and USA and go any port.

[ssiviour]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

, but if it's empty they can use Ports in CW Home Countries i.e UK, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, but not the Minors or Territories without a HQ for Foreign Troop Commitment.

I understand this just the opposite.


Unless they are already considered Free France, in which case they could cooperate with CW and USA and go any port.

You may be right, I might be confusing with FF

[Joseignacio]

Well, if France is Incompletely Conquered I guess they would be FF, so you are right that they could go anywhere but IMO they would not be restricted entry in CW minors. Units would be destroyed if they are French minor's units entering CW minor countries, or any French (no FF)units entering CW Majors home countries as well. Because they don't cooperate. But not French (FF or not) home units getting to CW minors.

With FF the Major Power units (FF) couuld go to CW MPs because they cooperate, so ships could. I still think the minors of FF cannot stand in CW MP or Minors land even if they cooperate, attending to the text.

From RAC:

FOREIGN TROOP COMMITMENTS
A major power or minor country unit that ends
any step in the home country of a friendly major
power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed
unless:

Ç It started the step there; or
Ç It started the step elsewhere and the unit
satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

A minor country unit that ends any step in the
home country of an aligned minor country on the
same side is destroyed unless:

Ç It started the step there; or
Ç It started the step elsewhere and the unit
satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

Clarification: Axis units are also destroyed if
they cannot satisfy Foreign Troop Commitment
requirements in Vichy Administration groups.

Clarification: Home countries here may be
new home countries. It does not refer to territory
controlled by a conquering major power.

[Centuur]

José is right:

From the FAQ:

Does Foreign Troop Commitments apply
after the country has been conquered?
FTC still applies to the new home country
of an incompletely conquered country.

And from RAW:

17.1 Creation
(...)
If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is
divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including
Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. (...)
Free France is an alternative government also established at this time.

This means that if the Axis installs Vichy, Free France is created.
If however, France gets incompletely conquered, France stays in the game (there is no creation of Free France in this case). Therefore the French cannot cooperate with the CW. So French ships cannot rebase in CW home countries (unless if they satisfy the FTC rules).

[Courtenay]

Another huge drawback to incomplete conquest is all the French minors stay aligned to France.
And a third is that getting an incomplete conquest takes longer, and the Axis's most precious resource is time.

The one big advantage of incomplete conquest is that there is no Vichy France, so the whole Spanish border is open to invasion without having to take a US entry hit for first creating and then collapsing Vichy France. If one is intending to invade Spain, great! If one is not, then this is not worth anything, and is in fact, a negative, because it is more territory for the Axis to defend.

[brian brian]

There are some wrinkles to it all. What the Allies do in France can influence Axis decision making.

Some CW players do a bare minimum in France. They send Gort + 2 MOT to Calais, sit there and watch the Panzer parade to their south, never loan the French a single Pound, and then sail away again when the Germans have 2 hexes on Paris. All while building up the Royal Navy for the mid-game. And the French reward this by sending BPs to the UK when the Germans are adjacent to Paris.

Other CW players invest a fair bit more in France, and make sure the French have some ground units in production for the Fall of 1940, and have moved a couple factories to Bordeaux. A MTN unit and the 1940 French ART can make their mountain hex citadels pretty fearsome. Sure, they might end up as Vichy units. But they might not.

The question at hand is - are the Germans going to attack Spain? In the first situation, a weak France running low on units might be easy to conquer, without the US Entry penalty for collapsing Vichy. In the 2nd situation, the Axis calculus will be quite different.

Another possible Axis plan is to take Morocco. If that hasn’t been achieved when they have Paris, they may not wish to see Morocco become Vichy.

And another consideration is the utility of the French fleet. If the Axis can take Marseilles and Bordeaux from a lazy set of Allies, the French fleet will probably be out of supply and increasingly completely useless as it also couldn’t be re-organized (barring some heroic stand by UK infantry in Rouen, perhaps). In that type of situation, the French might choose to surrender France to pick a new Home Country - & thus a new Primary Supply Source. Though then a whole ‘nother turn would have to pass before the French ships could sail again, and their ships, wherever they might be, would have to trace a supply line to that new Home Country, wherever it might be.

[RJCowan]

A variation on a question I just asked in another thread...CAN the French surrender? How is it done? It seems that the Peace phase does not occur. Have others surrendered France, and if so, how?

[craigbear]

I have surrendered with France. There are certain criteria that must be fulfilled and the option to select surrender just pops up.

[Courtenay]

You can not surrender until half your printed factories have been captured. Once that happens, you will be asked each turn. The Chinese player gets used to saying "No".