Night Fighting Accuracy

[Q-Ball]

Not sure what other's experience is, but I suspect similar....it seems like a gunner on a B-24 or other heavy bomber is inherently more accurate at night than a Japanese Pilot. I would expect that everyone's accuracy is impacted by darkness, but it seems like while the Pilot's accuracy is impacted, with many fewer hits than in daytime, the bomber gunners seem to have no penalty at night; they riddle any plane attempting to attack as if it's broad daylight.

Is this other's experience? Is that WAD? Just curious!

[BBfanboy]

The game doesn't model the bomber crew - just the pilot's Experience/Air/Defensive skill. But it models the aircraft durability and defensive firepower and AFAIK does not modify that for night battles.

IRL, bomber crew would not likely see the fighter until it started shooting at them, but the fighter had a chance of seeing the sparks/flames coming from engine exhaust on the bomber if it was in the right position behind it. But seeing disembodied sparks/flames from an invisible bomber is different from seeing the fuselage of the bomber itself. Very hard to target something without good depth cues and direction of travel cues. The only way for a non-radar equipped fighter to get a good fix on direction of travel was to be directly behind the bomber where the rear guns were already pointing.

IIRC, the German night fighters which had the upward firing cannon behind the cockpit also needed to turn on a little spotlight to illuminate a spot on the bomber fuselage to get an accurate shot.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Not sure what other's experience is, but I suspect similar....it seems like a gunner on a B-24 or other heavy bomber is inherently more accurate at night than a Japanese Pilot. I would expect that everyone's accuracy is impacted by darkness, but it seems like while the Pilot's accuracy is impacted, with many fewer hits than in daytime, the bomber gunners seem to have no penalty at night; they riddle any plane attempting to attack as if it's broad daylight.

Is this other's experience? Is that WAD? Just curious!

the impression among players is that the game is slanted against the Japanese in NF combat and thus most games have a limit by year against how many night bomber attacks may fly per night. It's like 20 in '42, 50 in '43, 100 in '44 and unlimited in '45. Every game I played in the last 6 years had some variation of this house rule.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Not sure what other's experience is, but I suspect similar....it seems like a gunner on a B-24 or other heavy bomber is inherently more accurate at night than a Japanese Pilot. I would expect that everyone's accuracy is impacted by darkness, but it seems like while the Pilot's accuracy is impacted, with many fewer hits than in daytime, the bomber gunners seem to have no penalty at night; they riddle any plane attempting to attack as if it's broad daylight.

Is this other's experience? Is that WAD? Just curious!

the impression among players is that the game is slanted against the Japanese in NF combat and thus most games have a limit by year against how many night bomber attacks may fly per night. It's like 20 in '42, 50 in '43, 100 in '44 and unlimited in '45. Every game I played in the last 6 years had some variation of this house rule.

I thought that rule was more related to accuracy of bombing at night than the effect of NFs? The Japanese don't get NFs until 1943, no?

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Not sure what other's experience is, but I suspect similar....it seems like a gunner on a B-24 or other heavy bomber is inherently more accurate at night than a Japanese Pilot. I would expect that everyone's accuracy is impacted by darkness, but it seems like while the Pilot's accuracy is impacted, with many fewer hits than in daytime, the bomber gunners seem to have no penalty at night; they riddle any plane attempting to attack as if it's broad daylight.

Is this other's experience? Is that WAD? Just curious!

the impression among players is that the game is slanted against the Japanese in NF combat and thus most games have a limit by year against how many night bomber attacks may fly per night. It's like 20 in '42, 50 in '43, 100 in '44 and unlimited in '45. Every game I played in the last 6 years had some variation of this house rule.

I thought that rule was more related to accuracy of bombing at night than the effect of NFs? The Japanese don't get NFs until 1943, no?

True, but if the Japanese NFs were effective in '42 and '43, including AAA and searchlights the bombing would decrease.

[mind_messing]

I'm of two minds on this issue myself actually.

On the one hand, defensive fire from bombers does seem to be very effective compared to other types of aircraft firing at each other.

On the other, the bombers that participate in a night bombing raid have already passed the EXP check for night time bombing, so it may be selection bias in that high EXP pilots will fly night missions AND do well on defensive fire rolls.

[LargeSlowTarget]

LOL, my last AAR is rife with rants and curses about the effectiveness of Allied heavy bomber's defensive fire at night - their gunners must have night vision devices, radar-aimed guns or some magic potion. 30 NFs against 5 bombers, 1-2 NF shot down, no bombers damaged - time and again.

[geofflambert]

The key is is not to have anything on the ground worth bombing.

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

LOL, my last AAR is rife with rants and curses about the effectiveness of Allied heavy bomber's defensive fire at night - their gunners must have night vision devices, radar-aimed guns or some magic potion. 30 NFs against 5 bombers, 1-2 NF shot down, no bombers damaged - time and again.

[8D]

I recall but a great aar

--

I am not any sort of expert here - so take my observations with a grain of salt. This is just my personal interpretation of results (vs the AI)

Having said that I always thought Night Fighters (Allied or Japanese) were never 'effective as a shoot down weapon'

That is Night Fighters tended to "bounce" the Night bombing raids and minimize damage of the bombing raid.

I always attributed/factored/calculated - the losses to "more operational losses" according to the results I see in combination with the Aircraft losses summary. There is a higher risk to both fighters and bombers flying at night and the losses appear to me to be more operational in nature - some also FLAK - as opposed to Air to Air Loses.

This is further impacted by pilot experience, fog of war in the reporting, etc etc. I suppose Night Fighter CAP with Average 90 experience pilots probably would perform better and have more air to air victories. But even my Carrier F6F Nightfighters loaded on CV never seem to have that level of experience as the good Night fighter airframes come latter in the war and I do not dedicate as much time to cultivating "alpha squadrons" for these groups.

My gut feeling is that the true value of Night CAP is to bounce the bombing raids as opposed air to air victories.

[IdahoNYer]

I think Macclan5 is spot on.

While L_S_T might not have seen direct bomber damage in our PBEM - many planes were in fact damaged by the night fighters - usually when radar equipped planes were engaged. I think radar plays a big part to their success or failure. So does guessing the correct altitude for intercept.

While the B-29s remained a potent air-to-air opponent, the B-24s were often hit very hard by night fighters.

But the sad fact is, the Japanese night fighters aren't very good - few have radar, are lightly armed and usually without armor.

On the flip side, I expected better from my Black Widows - good firepower, had radar and armor....but as Mcclan5 posted, the most common result is a reduced bombing results rather than shooting down many bombers.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

I think Macclan5 is spot on.

While L_S_T might not have seen direct bomber damage in our PBEM - many planes were in fact damaged by the night fighters - usually when radar equipped planes were engaged. I think radar plays a big part to their success or failure. So does guessing the correct altitude for intercept.

While the B-29s remained a potent air-to-air opponent, the B-24s were often hit very hard by night fighters.

But the sad fact is, the Japanese night fighters aren't very good - few have radar, are lightly armed and usually without armor.

On the flip side, I expected better from my Black Widows - good firepower, had radar and armor....but as Mcclan5 posted, the most common result is a reduced bombing results rather than shooting down many bombers.

IIRC, in RL the Black Widows only had six confirmed kills during the war. They arrived late, when Japan had pretty much given up on using night snoopers and bombing raids. NFs also require some sort of ground direction to get them fairly close to the enemy - the USN had to do that and had lots of radars to help, but I have not heard of the USAAF setting up a night fighter direction center in their BFs or Air HQs, perhaps because (in the late war) the Japanese were not trying to attack land targets at night?

[Lowpe]

We have talked a lot about this...HB can become night time sweepers.

Basically, non night fighters are heavily penalized in their roles if used at night, while HB are not, thus you can end up doing a poor mans sweep with HB in the early years.

Even when NF come along, the HB still do well...there are a lot of tactics that need to be used, but at least the loss ratio starts to approach 1-1 and not 4-1 or worse.

My general tactic in countering early night fighters is to use Petes at 10% where possible. They have such a poor rate of climb they almost never actually intercept, but their presence does reduce the bomber's effectiveness. The Dinah fighter at 10% also does very well, just break a squadron down into thirds and you can protect three bases. Generally you lose a fighter every 4 bombing runs...which isn't too bad.

It is a holistic exercise, you absolutely need ground radar and AA to help, along with forts and balloons preferably no moon and heavy thunderstorms.[:D]

[Sardaukar]

Japanese bombers do not do well against my Beaufighter VIfs or P-70s. Not many kills, but they don't shoot down NF either.

Allied heavies are different thing..and historically, IJA NFs didn't do well.

[Randy Stead]

It was called Schrage Musik [jazz music.] Very effective on the underside of a bomb-laden Lancaster or such. I would guess a bit scary to the pilot, shooting up into the bomb bay. I can't make the umlaut [two dots] over the "a" in schrage.

Wiki link: Schrage Musik

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

It was called Schrage Musik [jazz music.] Very effective on the underside of a bomb-laden Lancaster or such. I would guess a bit scary to the pilot, shooting up into the bomb bay. I can't make the umlaut [two dots] over the "a" in schrage.

Wiki link: Schrage Musik

Simply copy and paste "Schräge" or spell it Schraege. [;)]

The problem with such music to the crew of the recipient of it, is it results in one heck of a blast that is not an enjoyable one for the crew of the recipient. In fact, it might just ruin their whole day - nor night.

[RangerJoe]

edit: double post and I am not sure why.

[Randy Stead]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

It was called Schrage Musik [jazz music.] Very effective on the underside of a bomb-laden Lancaster or such. I would guess a bit scary to the pilot, shooting up into the bomb bay. I can't make the umlaut [two dots] over the "a" in schrage.

Wiki link: Schrage Musik

Simply copy and paste "Schräge" or spell it Schraege. [;)]

The problem with such music to the crew of the recipient of it, is it results in one heck of a blast that is not an enjoyable one for the crew of the recipient. In fact, it might just ruin their whole day - nor night.

D'oh, of course! I've been away from forum posting for so long I have forgotten some of the basics.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

It was called Schrage Musik [jazz music.] Very effective on the underside of a bomb-laden Lancaster or such. I would guess a bit scary to the pilot, shooting up into the bomb bay. I can't make the umlaut [two dots] over the "a" in schrage.

Wiki link: Schrage Musik

Simply copy and paste "Schräge" or spell it Schraege. [;)]

The problem with such music to the crew of the recipient of it, is it results in one heck of a blast that is not an enjoyable one for the crew of the recipient. In fact, it might just ruin their whole day - nor night.

D'oh, of course! I've been away from forum posting for so long I have forgotten some of the basics.

That is okay. A lot of people don't worry about the special characters and still get the message.

[Ian R]

Playing ironman 3 v the JAI, the IJA sends Rita raids over extensive distances at night to bomb airfields. Squadron size usually. Without any night cap at all, they tend to hit the base and the FOW inflated result reads #numbers of planes destroyed, and ## more damaged and several hits on the tarmac. The reality at a built up base such as PM, is that there was a lot less airframe damage and probably zero facility damage the next morning (after a repair phase at end of day).

If you put a small (day) fighter unit (P39s or whatever) on night CAP, there are no shoot downs, but less bombs hit.

When you get the 5th Airforce P70 squadron and put it at PM on night CAP, the deterrent factor seems to be incremented, but even with 70s skilled aircrews, shoot downs are rare.

If, eventually, you put a squadron of Black Widows there - with a selection of high exp/skill 80+/80+ aircrew pulled out of tracom or other units - set to range around on CAP at night, so putting a couple over each airbase in the area - you get the deterrent effect, and you start to get some shoot downs.

I have not tried out the option of putting the P61s on LRCAP over the suspected base hex of the bombers (and they seem to be coming from Sorong or somewhere). I suspect that won't work because the bombers will be on the way before the LRCAP gets there.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Playing ironman 3 v the JAI, the IJA sends Rita raids over extensive distances at night to bomb airfields. Squadron size usually. Without any night cap at all, they tend to hit the base and the FOW inflated result reads #numbers of planes destroyed, and ## more damaged and several hits on the tarmac. The reality at a built up base such as PM, is that there was a lot less airframe damage and probably zero facility damage the next morning (after a repair phase at end of day).

If you put a small (day) fighter unit (P39s or whatever) on night CAP, there are no shoot downs, but less bombs hit.

When you get the 5th Airforce P70 squadron and put it at PM on night CAP, the deterrent factor seems to be incremented, but even with 70s skilled aircrews, shoot downs are rare.

If, eventually, you put a squadron of Black Widows there - with a selection of high exp/skill 80+/80+ aircrew pulled out of tracom or other units - set to range around on CAP at night, so putting a couple over each airbase in the area - you get the deterrent effect, and you start to get some shoot downs.

I have not tried out the option of putting the P61s on LRCAP over the suspected base hex of the bombers (and they seem to be coming from Sorong or somewhere). I suspect that won't work because the bombers will be on the way before the LRCAP gets there.

The LRCAP will increase OPs losses.