Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

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stryc
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Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by stryc »

What it says on the tin.

I've never seen it happen. (I'm only 90 turns into my fist game tho.)
HansLemurson
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by HansLemurson »

I've seen AI railroads, but I can't be certain they weren't there at the game's start. When I cut its railroad, it re-routed around my attack with a dirt road, but no rails.
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Clux
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Clux »

Yes, but only if they are majors and have some kind of industry
Amateurs talk about strategy. Professionals talk about logistics!
Foxador
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Foxador »

ORIGINAL: Clux

Yes, but only if they are majors and have some kind of industry


Which means that most of the time you're only going to see the free fake dirt roads the AI makes since it doesn't even need them, which is why it doesn't build the better stuff.
stryc
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by stryc »

It has put me off the game a bit knowing that the AI just doesn't need to concern itself with one of the game's core mechanics. Dirt roads spider-webbing everywhere, for free, and no need to build sealed roads or rail.
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by HansLemurson »

It's better than an AI that is unable to feed its troops or fuel its vehicles and becomes a helpless pushover.

But yes, I don't like the spiderweb of dirt roads that can develop in AI Major territory, and the fact that they can build across mountain ranges for free.

But keep in mind, the reason the AI gets to build these free roads is because it still does have to use logistics to feed and supply its troops. It's not ignoring the game element, it's just getting a helping hand. This happens with many other things in the game, but you don't notice because you can't see it.

"Weird free roads" is obvious, but "Simulates zone recon levels instead of generating and playing Spy Cards" is not.
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Foxador »

It is ignoring the main game element though because it doesn't use logistics at all. It can have troops in the middle of the desert 50 tiles from any town and still fully resupply 100 troops, something the player the can't do.

All the AI needs is a single path uninterrupted to any of it's towns to get supplied, so the only way to cut them off is too fully encircle them.

As the player you're always fighting the logistics issue trying to make sure you can supply your towns and troops without putting too many units in a spot that you can't afford to which is a rule that doesn't apply to the AI. You can't say otherwise either because the AI only has level 1 private truck points in it's towns with no rails with a chance to see a level 2 private place at it's capital. There's no way they would be able to support their troops let along their empire with that
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Twotribes
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Twotribes »

I have played games where I won simply because the AI built to much and starved themselves to losing. This is ok though a little gamey. Better then what would happen otherwise. You really wanna win cause the AI isn't smart enough to handle Logistics?
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Foxador
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Foxador »

My point is more that if the AI can't handle the logistic system why are the players forced to use it? Everyone else in the game gets a free pass other than you, I wanted to play a game not a logistic sim
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Twotribes
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Twotribes »

4x games are full of detail and complexity perhaps this is not the type of game you want to play? Try Advanced Tactics Gold it is real good.
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Foxador
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Foxador »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

4x games are full of detail and complexity perhaps this is not the type of game you want to play? Try Advanced Tactics Gold it is real good.

It's not about detail or complexity which I can handle just fine thanks, it's that the way things are in this game has it so the player is punished while the AI has easy street. That's the part I don't like. I don't mind a system if both players have to follow it, but if only I have to follow it while no one else does it feels cheap.

I can handle the logistic system in this game but it's a hollow thing to conquer since I get to watch everyone else cheat it. It's one thing to have a system in play, it's another to have it so you're the only one forced to deal with it. I rather have the AI just get bonuses to stuff like they do in pretty much everyone game than just ignoring key aspects of the game.
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by stryc »

I broadly agree with Foxador here.

I fully understand and accept that AIs need to cheat in order to give the Human a challenge. Every decent 4X/wargame does it. However, the really good ones do it by way of slight advantages afforded to an already decent AI. Here I see a completely free pass being given, and that diminishes the game somewhat for me.

I heard about the much lauded AI in this game, which is mostly what drew me to it, but I just don't see it. What I do see is an AI that doesn't have to even consider the core backbone of what defines this game, i.e., the Logistics system; an AI that can send its troops _anywhere_ and not suffer anything worse than being caught out of position militarily; an AI being frequently caught out of position militarily; an AI that frequently puts tanks in mountains and leaves troops out in the wind; an AI that doesn't know how to deal with long range attacks; ad nauseum.

To be honest, I was kind of okay with the AI being weak in terms of army handling as this is a fairly common thing in such games and I've got used to giving games that aren't strong in this area something of a grudging pass; however, to recently discover that the AI also can't handle this game's (arguably) core system, and is allowed to essentially ignore it, feels like a bridge too far. (It's not even as if the AI's weakness has been cunningly disguised; the giant, maddening, spiderweb of dirt roads shout loud and proud about what's really going on.)

Is it still a good game? Yes, clearly it is. But it's not the game I thought it was - which is entirely down to me. It's more like just another wargame/puzzle game where the player is more fighting the systems than the opponents. And that's fine, I suppose, if that's what you want. I also accept that I don't think the game ever directly marketed itself as being anything more than that.
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KingHalford
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by KingHalford »

Name one 4X game with a good AI and I'll show you an AI that uses exactly the same kind of advantages as the one in Shadow Empire does.
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t1it
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by t1it »

I'm also put off by the AI completely ignoring logistics. Why I prefer simpler logistics system but one the AI actually uses. Ie. Ageod games.
stryc
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by stryc »

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Name one 4X game with a good AI and I'll show you an AI that uses exactly the same kind of advantages as the one in Shadow Empire does.
How about nearly every TBS wargame that has a supply mechanic, including one of this game's predecessors: Advanced Tactics. (I haven't actually played AT so I can't confirm that myself, so I am taking the word of others on this one which is not without risk.)
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Twotribes »

Advanced Tactics Gold the AI can over build and then their armies starve.
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Warjager
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Warjager »

WHAT????? Ai dont use the logistic system at all?? ok! I was on the forum to read about more of the game, to see if i buy it or not. Clearly i wont ever after reading this!!! Big part of the fun is to think about how to outsmart your enemy, dealing with your logistic and their, and maybe find a weak spot to use to your advantage. Ok for some special unit or bandit to be able to do that, but for an entire empire to bypass the core of the game? no way! They made it with Atg, why not include this to SE? After all, its kind of its spiritual succesor!

Hope its because the game still a work in progress and will be added at a later date, but if not, its really immersion breaking for me! Will go back to Atg instead!
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Twotribes
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by Twotribes »

You can still cut them off they have to trace a path back to a source.
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DeltaV112
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by DeltaV112 »

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Name one 4X game with a good AI and I'll show you an AI that uses exactly the same kind of advantages as the one in Shadow Empire does.
The Sword of the Stars AI at standard difficulty doesn't cheat vision, doesn't cheat tech, doesn't cheat economy, doesn't have any particular inclination to gang up on the human player more than the AI, and is generally capable of kicking your ass until you're fairly experienced at the game.

Good AI in a 4x game is a matter of designing systems that the AI can interact with effectively and putting in the time to make the AI good at executing it. When I talk about SotS I talk about a game that has a mathematically very simple set of economy decisions that the AI can effectively predict the outcomes of, that the AI there is good at empire-building and less competent at battles(which are much more hard to analyze) isn't too surprising.
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

Post by HansLemurson »

ORIGINAL: Warjager

WHAT????? Ai dont use the logistic system at all?? ok! I was on the forum to read about more of the game, to see if i buy it or not. Clearly i wont ever after reading this!!! Big part of the fun is to think about how to outsmart your enemy, dealing with your logistic and their, and maybe find a weak spot to use to your advantage. Ok for some special unit or bandit to be able to do that, but for an entire empire to bypass the core of the game? no way! They made it with Atg, why not include this to SE? After all, its kind of its spiritual succesor!

Hope its because the game still a work in progress and will be added at a later date, but if not, its really immersion breaking for me! Will go back to Atg instead!
The AI does use the Logistical system, it's just given some boosts to make sure it doesn't trip over itself.
It gets:
- Free Road Construction
- Free Logistics points generated from cities

The complaint was just that cutting a road doesn't hurt the AI like it does a human, because the AI can immediately build a new road to bypass your blockage and get its troops back into supply before they suffer any real problems.
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