Open Beta Patch v1.26a (26 march 2024)

Stop here if you are eager to try in advance new patches! Please note that these patches are not compatible with the Steam version of the game.

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Vic
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!)

Post by Vic »

ORIGINAL: demiare

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

The fact that there are "only" 2500 jobs is the number of filled jobs, not the number of total jobs (the closed down assets aren't counted) I think.

No, only 2500 jobs because most of private assets are mothballed (see yellow dot icon near asset name?).

Why AI is mothballing them is a good question and a reason to send save to Vic. Seems it's trying to salvage something, but how something could be more important then food is beyond me.

But 100% you overbuild public assets without taking population in mind.

Yeah i'll be interested to check up on that savefile.

The rules are working as intended (the stats are from start of turn production, after that the pop decided to mothball the asset).

It seems they should not have done that.

Send it over to vic@vrdesigns.net and include a line reminding me of the issue.

best wishes,
Vic
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!)

Post by Vic »

Concerning the Logistics discussions. I am still thinking about this. And yes I am using this beta to experiment on my players. My apologies for that.

But it ain't easy to stay faithful to the original idea and get the pull system working at the same time.

Not asking for any understanding here :) just saying it is taking some time to get this to a state where I am happy with it and most players as well.

And @Vhalor, there might be a good chance i am replacing that STOP-at-next-station rule and putting something more refined in its place.

Best wishes,
Vic
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GodwinW
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!)

Post by GodwinW »

ORIGINAL: Vic

Concerning the Logistics discussions. I am still thinking about this.
But it ain't easy to stay faithful to the original idea and get the pull system working at the same time.

That's why I said it is a slippery slope ( fb.asp?m=4847534 (and also already in fb.asp?m=4847102 )).

That's why I felt it was dangerous to my enjoyment of this beautiful game and why I felt my own preference needed strong, vocal presentation to hopefully close the door on eventually scrapping the original system, why I was very much appreciative of you keeping it and urging you to keep supporting the original system.

I have been playing with the old system, but you don't hear that because I have no feedback on that of course: it just works!
ORIGINAL: Vic
just saying it is taking some time to get this to a state where I am happy with it and most players as well.

And this phrase is scary to me. I hardly ever belong to the majority. Let me have this one game that caters to my preferences please. I don't want to see something epic blemished by changes for some majority that doesn't care about my wishes.

Now, I hope you just mean that it's impossible to satisfy everyone with the eventual pull system (which it practically always is and that's just inevitable), and not that you are thinking about scrapping the original system to make things easier. The people who bought the game the way it was and loved it the way it was and who feel like I do will really not be happy with that. I will probably seriously never play again. Such things, I have noticed over the years, mar a game in my head to the point any leftover fun that could be had is offset by a reminder of the direction it went and what could have been that the net enjoyment is below 0. Just a psychological thing for me.

Anyway, enough rambling.

Good luck with it all! :)
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!)

Post by Vic »

Posted beta10. Replaced the logistics change I made in beta9 by a mechanism that is more interesting (and also much less big a change for people who liked the system before that beta9 change)
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!)

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

That's why I said it is a slippery slope ( fb.asp?m=4847534 (and also already in fb.asp?m=4847102 )).

The faster to the turn button, the more rapid the boredom.
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Gywox »

I've found a problem with Mass Upgrade.

I tried to upgrade and replace my "soldiers", "soldiers II" and "soldiers III".
It did not work because I did not have any Log.Pts. In the end I managed to fix it and mass upgrade everyone.

The next turn, my two robot armies disappeared. See screenshots.

They been created on the same turn. I'm playing beta 9.

The 38100 infantry were not robots.

If you want my save you have to tell me how to make it available to you. I have no accounts for such.



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Gywox
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Gywox »

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Gywox »

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JWW
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by JWW »

My one concern about the logistics redo is that perhaps it is being influenced for the wrong people. I respect all the input and work being done, but this is in the end a game, not a logistics exercise. I play complex games, but I usually play them without getting too far under the hood. I played SE with the non-beta log system and loved it. It made sense -- without fixating on the numbers under the hood. I played it mainly just eyeballing the supply overlays, particularly the bottleneck overlay and preview overlay. It worked for me. I loved it. I had to put a lot of thought into it, but I didn't have to count lug nuts and hubcaps. I thought it was genius. It felt like a real logistics system on the surface. I could figure it out and make it work. I'm guessing that was Vic's intent.

I'm playing the beta now. I play it the same way, mainly just eyeballing the supply overlays, particularly the bottleneck overlay and preview overlay. It works for me. I am fine with it. To me, without going under the hood, it seems to play much like the pre-beta system, with perhaps not quite as much putting up roadblocks, or paying PP to cut roads, which never made sense to me since a roadblock is free and you just might need that road you cut rebuilt later if, for example, a new resource site is discovered at the end of that road. I'm looking at the forest. I am concerned that too many are counting trees and not looking at the forest. I thought the idea was to keep the old system and design a somewhat streamlined though still complex, not dumbed down system. But I read about a system that is working for me and find out it is a disaster, the numbers don't add up, this thing isn't working exactly right, that thing isn't working exactly right. And I wonder, what is wrong with me if I'm having fun playing it? I wonder if too many people are looking too closely at the numbers and forgetting about the gameplay.

I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by GodwinW »

LOGISTICS:
-Games started with Beta10 will NO longer have the stop-at-next-Logistical Asset rule I tried out in Beta9. Instead of stopping the spread of their Logistical Points when meeting another Logistical Asset they’ll now be REFOCUSED at that next Logistical Asset. This Logistical Refocusing will diminish their Logistical Points but reset their AP-used to 0. Formula is refocused Logistical Points are diminished with currently used AP / maximum AP range and for the 1st refocus with a further 25% , for the second refocus with 50% and for the third and final refocus with 75%. This way there is less depleted runners on the map (good for pull) and it is still possible to have overlap (good for ease of play and realism).

Without having played it yet: Interesting! I like the sound of it :)
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by willgamer »

I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.

At least I mostly understood, and could literally see, what a stop sign did with the old LIS.

I have no idea when or why to use the new buttons in the traffic tab, much less how to judge the effects. Even the 100% stop signs no longer stop in every instance!?

[8|]
Rex Lex or Lex Rex?
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Malevolence
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL: willgamer
I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.

At least I mostly understood, and could literally see, what a stop sign did with the old LIS.

I have no idea when or why to use the new buttons in the traffic tab, much less how to judge the effects. Even the 100% stop signs no longer stop in every instance!?

[8|]

The logistic System is a gigantic mess

The most influential post on this forum. 3x more replies than its closet competitor. 2x more views.

If you want to understand how we got here and what's going on with logistics, feel free to read the 342 posts.

There is your smoking gun.

As a community, we begged for this change. Give the developer at least a few months to work out the kinks before demanding yet another change.

... and it's noticed that some of the most adamant proponents for the change in that thread were not around here in july to post tests and bugs.
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.

I can't speak for Vic, but here's how I'm seeing it:

Prior to the pull system being implemented, the difference between beginner players and advanced players was massive. As in, if you didn't fully understand how the logistics system worked, how to manipulate it, how to diagnose it and how to fix its problems, it was very easy to end up in a situation where your troops are starving despite having enough theoretical logistical capacity to tend to all their needs. Conversely, if you WERE an advanced player, you could make enormous cumulative gains in efficiency at the cost of a great deal of tedium. Not really an ideal situation for everyone - it's nice for differences in skill and knowledge to make a difference in results, but not so much of a difference that those without skill have trouble functioning on a basic level, while exploiting that difference to its fullest potential required a lot of tedious clickwork. Let's not think the former issue is a minor one, either - by far the most common topic in the forums is some variation of "What the heck is wrong with my logistics?"

In theory, once the kinks are ironed out, the pull system will allow beginner players to be able to function at a basic level as long as they have enough logistical capacity in the system, while still allowing advanced players some room for extra tricks up their sleeve if they get into the guts of the system, bringing the game closer to the "easy to learn, hard to master" ideal. If you're playing at the "high-level" view you are and noticing that the game is easier to play and understand without being much different, that's great! That shows that the pull system is doing its part for those who aren't looking under the hood much, which most likely will be the majority. The issue now is making sure that things are cleaned up enough under the hood so that advanced players can get their enjoyment out of tinkering without undue tedium as well, and that whatever problems are going on aren't causing bugs that break logistics for those who don't look under the hood - it's one thing for your troops to starve because you didn't place a series of roadblocks channeling logistics where they should go, it's another thing for your troops to starve because of a bug when by all rights they really shouldn't be starving.

It's worth remembering, by the way, that the original logistical system didn't descend from the heavens carved upon tablets of stone. It was worked on and developed for months, and what we saw at launch was the result of a great deal of designing, coding, playtesting, and debugging. Conversely, we're seeing the pull system in the raw, bloody stages of infancy and growth. This is how the sausage gets made, and some degree of messiness is to be expected. This is after all a beta, and as Vic noted above anyone participating is essentially being a guinea pig for his design experiments towards a better end result, and if people are pointing out problems it's to help refine things towards a good full patch release.
ORIGINAL: GodwinW
And this phrase is scary to me. I hardly ever belong to the majority. Let me have this one game that caters to my preferences please. I don't want to see something epic blemished by changes for some majority that doesn't care about my wishes.

I have to admit, "I am a vocal minority and I know it, please design the game specifically for me because there are so few games that do" is not an argument I've seen before. Usually people try to claim they represent the silent majority instead. I can respect the honesty at least.
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Vic »

ORIGINAL: willgamer
I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.

At least I mostly understood, and could literally see, what a stop sign did with the old LIS.

I have no idea when or why to use the new buttons in the traffic tab, much less how to judge the effects. Even the 100% stop signs no longer stop in every instance!?

[8|]

feel free to send a savegame to vic@vrdesigns.net and giving me the coordinates of the stop sign that is no longer stopping everything.

would be helpful.

best wishes,
Vic
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by Vic »

ORIGINAL: Gywox

I've found a problem with Mass Upgrade.

I tried to upgrade and replace my "soldiers", "soldiers II" and "soldiers III".
It did not work because I did not have any Log.Pts. In the end I managed to fix it and mass upgrade everyone.

The next turn, my two robot armies disappeared. See screenshots.

They been created on the same turn. I'm playing beta 9.

The 38100 infantry were not robots.

If you want my save you have to tell me how to make it available to you. I have no accounts for such.



Can post link to images. Why?
"You are not allowed to post links, emails or phone numbers for 7 days from the date of your tenth post"

Thanks for reporting Gywox. Could you send your save game just before they dissapeared to vic@vrdesigns.net ?
I'll take a look.

best,
vic
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by JWW »

Tomn, I appreciate the explanation, and it makes a lot of sense. I'm probably in the middle between those who want to delve deeply and those who want it to run without too much effort. I did not find the original log system tedious. I enjoyed doing some micromanaging, even though I did it without checking the numbers too much, but as I said, using the overlays. I found that to be a beautiful and unique part of the game. So I don't want it made so simple that it is effortless.

I also wonder if at the end there will be the option to use the old system or the new system. That was discussed by Vic at one point. I know there are toggles in the roadblock screen now. Wondering if those toggles will be there when this is finished?
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

Post by GodwinW »

ORIGINAL: Tomn
I have to admit, "I am a vocal minority and I know it, please design the game specifically for me because there are so few games that do" is not an argument I've seen before. Usually people try to claim they represent the silent majority instead. I can respect the honesty at least.

That's not what I said. If you quote me (you're using quotation marks) then quote me. Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V is much faster than typing a full sentence out yourself [:'(].

And yet, I understand your point.

And even then, have you checked the forum we're on? This entire publisher deals in 'niche'. It's not weird to focus on a subset. You can be the best in a niche and make a good living that way.

It's also very very very difficult to predict beforehand whether something is liked by people who never got the chance to experience it. This game is so different, and it is in a niche for sure but that it may get way more attention from random people and of those people who knows how many like it.

Basically: this game may create a new market.

And yes, purely from my personal perspective: I hope the original system remains, as I've said many times. And I'm not the only one at all. But I do feel like I'm in a minority here on these forums.
Not a small minority though, maybe 40% to 60%. idk I haven't counted.
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!)

Post by jsbarker702 »

Getting an error message that the following png files are missing: 33, 105, 106.

I installed the mod with the Ctrl A method, not sure what I am doing wrong although the game will still play.

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!)

Post by Destragon »

You need to install version 1.04 before installing this beta. The card images you're missing are the ones that were in the last updates.
You might actually be able to run the game normally if you just put some blank images with those file names in your graphics\shadow\card folder.
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!)

Post by Vhalor »

ORIGINAL: Vic

Posted beta10. Replaced the logistics change I made in beta9 by a mechanism that is more interesting (and also much less big a change for people who liked the system before that beta9 change)

Haven't played with it too much yet, but already feels a lot better! Time to change the signature once again... [8D]
"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS
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