Post War Robert E Lee

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Zap
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by Zap »




thanks, Rommel222. Warspite1 a must read

In the articles you posted I found most revealing the smithsonian article in which he writes about his view of slavery. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... -85017563/
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Zap

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

He had freed his slaves plus the slaves that were inherited from Mr. Custis. He freed his slaves before the war and those from Mr. Custis in 1862.

He preferred that the Union be intact but he considered himself a Virginian first, then an American. That was common in the South or anyplace without an influx of newcomers. The North had a lot of immigrants who identified with the Nation before the state.

Thanks. That knowledge is significant. Still no first hand knowledge as to why he did it but I'm guessing he was motivated by a good heart.

The ones that were inherited, the will stated that they were to be freed within 5 years. He did not have to free his own but he did so. Except for the deep South cotton states, slavery was dying out.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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After the war, Robert Lee retired to Washington University, a small but historic university located in Lexington, VA (which is also where VMI is located, the military school Stonewall Jackson taught at). In doing so, he accepted the post of President of the College. Washington University was one of the oldest colleges in the United States, but was in somewhat dire straits at that time; Lee managed to help reform it and put it back on a bath to prosperity and was so instrumental that the university was eventually partially renamed in his honor to Washington and Lee University. While there, he implemented an honor code system which, while not unique, was certainly unusual: all students could take tests and such unproctored and were bound by a code that relied on their honor and the vigilance of fellow students; you would sign this code at the start of your four years. While some might decry the ease by which dishonorable students could break such a system, the majority of the student body did and still does abide by it and it had and has a great benefit in terms of the character and free nature of student academic life there.

In addition to this, General Lee had one main rule for students of W&L: Be a Gentleman. He is still greatly respected on campus for his character and the system he put in place, as well as his push for reconciliation post-war. You can still go to Lee Chapel today, which is a national historic landmark and the burial site of Lee (as well as his warhorse, which has been preserved through taxidermy).

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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zap



thanks, Rommel222. Warspite1 a must read

In the articles you posted I found most revealing the smithsonian article in which he writes about his view of slavery. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... -85017563/
warspite1

I will take a look - thanks for posting
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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"I did only what my duty demanded."

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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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1856 letter to his wife. The passage begins: “In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages.” But he goes on: “I think it however a greater evil to the white than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.”
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by TheGrayMouser »

Lee was a conformist, and like other southerners, might have had moral or religious doubts on slavery, but in the end was content enough to preserve the status quo, and “leave it up to God”. Freeing the Custis slaves within 5 years of Custis’ death was part of his duty to execute the will, and yet he kept them working right up to the 5 years... There is no evidence ( court filings, manumission paperwork) about freeing his own slaves, and I believe his own writings are silent on the issue. I’m not saying he couldnt be an honorable man , but one also needs consider to whom he extended his honor too.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by RangerJoe »

The family was in debt plus had obligations from the will, that was why the slaves were kept working. As far as freed slaves in Virginia, they had to leave the state or they were enslaved.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by TheGrayMouser »

According to the 1860 census, there were slightly more free blacks in the south than the north, somethig like 260k to 250k. I am not suggesting life was better or worse, no doubt it could be more precarious and unsurprising those that could, left.

So , Lee held on to Custis' slaves as long as possible to pay for the estates debts to benefit Lees relatives? Not sure how that helps his legacy. Additionally, the slaves themselves beleived they were actually freed at Custis death and were quite bitter when it became apparant the new master was not only going to keep them as long as he could, but use them more "efficiently" then Custis ever did, separating families to maximies productivity. Several escaped, were caught and were ( if you chose to believe 6 witnesses), whipped under Lees orders. Most historians doubt Lee actually yielded the whip himself or was even present as was alleged by one witness, as it was not in his charactor, but the orders came form him certainly. So for someone whom wrote in his letters he abohred the idea of owning or running a plantation, he ended up being pretty "good" at it...So much for morality when money is at stake.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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Lee's daughters were supposed to receive money. The money was supposed to come from the sale of land/property but Lee did not want to sell the property. He eventually did sell the property.

He did have them whipped. Apparently the sheriff/constable did so and was paid.

Did you research find out how many blacks were held as slaves by other blacks?
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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As I see it, Lee was more motivated to act on what he perceived an injustice to the southern states. The fact that the common man (not owning slaves) enlisted in the hundreds of thousands choosing war against the north. Shows me, the common man felt deeply the north was trying to impose itself over the rights of their state's. Lee was not a leader for social justice. His sense of Duty pushed the balance for justice swing in favor of protecting the southern states. As deeply passionate, as were, the southern mans feelings for their homeland its understandable they wanted to honor Robert E. Lee with a statue, for being the protector of what they held dear.
As recounted when he went to his home in Richmond, after the war, many people gathered at the front steps of his home. Before he entered the door of his home they honored him.

We see today repeatedly the honoring a person who lived an otherwise dis-honorable/even criminal life being held up as a good person. Defective and imperfect characters don't hold people back from their perception of who is deserving of honor.

Best said by poster Don 60420 post #9 quote


Quite true, just as we all are. People are good about picking out flaws in others but poor at noting their own flaws. If we are going to continually indict the past for not being the present, we will learn little from the past, except using it as a club to be wielded in current political strife. Understanding the past should be our goal as war gamers. What we do with that understanding may, or may not, lead to political action, but the understanding must definitely come first.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by RangerJoe »

The problem is that people are using the standards of today to judge people in the past.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zap

As I see it, Lee was more motivated to act on what he perceived an injustice to the southern states. The fact that the common man (not owning slaves) enlisted in the hundreds of thousands choosing war against the north. Shows me, the common man felt deeply the north was trying to impose itself over their rites of the state. Lee was not a leader for social justice. His sense of Duty pushed the balance for justice swing in favor of protecting the southern states. As deeply passionate, as were, the southern mans feelings for their homeland its understandable they wanted to honor Robert E. Lee with a statue, for being the protector of what they held dear.
As recounted when he went to his home in Richmond, after the war, many people gathered at the front steps of his home. Before he entered the door of his home they honored him.

We see today repeatedly the honoring a person who lived an otherwise dis-honorable/even criminal life being held up as a good person. Defective and imperfect characters don't hold people back from their perception of who is deserving of honor.

Best said by poster Don 60420 post #9 quote

Quite true, just as we all are. People are good about picking out flaws in others but poor at noting their own flaws. If we are going to continually indict the past for not being the present, we will learn little from the past, except using it as a club to be wielded in current political strife. Understanding the past should be our goal as war gamers. What we do with that understanding may, or may not, lead to political action, but the understanding must definitely come first.
warspite1

Looks like you've quoted part of what I wrote in the quote you've attributed to Don 60420.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

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corrected.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The problem is that people are using the standards of today to judge people in the past.

Exactly. The moral code we adhere to today is a product of the luxurious plenty that we live under. It could never be applied in any other condition. The greatest death threat we face today is from dietary excess. Easy to castigate those from harder times from the pinnacle of our excessive ease. Earlier Americans were hacking a civilization out of a wilderness. They faced threats to their lives we can't even fathom. That they should be held to today's standard is idiocy.

And don't think that we can't be thrust into just the circumstances they were in. I like to use the Donner Party to illustrate that things can get so bad that you'll not only kill your neighbors, you'll EAT them too! Imagine if there were some environmental disaster to the Earth such that it wouldn't support seven billion people anymore. Maybe it could only support seven million. Do you think our current luxurious moral code would still adhere? Slavery, genocide, even cannibalism would quickly make comebacks (and that's assuming they've ever even disappeared completely).
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by Erik Rutins »

A reminder that discussing R.E. Lee in the context of the American Civil War and those times is very much fine for this forum, but bringing that discussion into the events and politics of the current day goes against our no politics policy. A few recent posts are quite close to that line, please be sure you don't cross it as this is otherwise a good discussion.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zap

corrected.
warspite1

Thank-you
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by RangerJoe »

One thing about the sudden freeing of the slaves, in Jamaica it wrecked the economy. Of course, that may have been because the landlords and their overseers may not have known how to deal with paid laborers.

Check out these:

http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Sam ... lavery.htm

From there:

http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Sam ... igelow.htm

I won't quote anything from the links because that is not allowed. But the second one is about the economy and what happened.
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by Capt. Harlock »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw

I'm no expert on American history, but what little I have read on Lee suggests he fought for Virginia not the CSA. If Virginia had of been in the Northern Coalition he would have led the Union, would I be correct on seeing it this way?
warspite1

Interesting. Perhaps someone knowledgeable on the US Civil War will add their insight. Seems strange though - and I only say this because that would mean he would have no personal interest in the politics of his state and who/what he would be fighting for - only that his state declares for one side or the other and he would follow.....

Also, if that was his avowed position, then why would he have become such a revered figure to the South post the war?

For whatever my opinion is worth, had Virginia stayed in the Union (highly unlikely, but we can speculate), Lee would have resigned from the U. S. Army. He did write that "save in defense of my native state, I never again desire to draw my sword." It is just possible that, had he been in command of a fort in a seceding state, his sense of duty would not have allowed him to surrender his command, and he might have been the man who first returned fire against the Confederates, rather than Robert Anderson at Fort Sumter.

It is indeed a great pity that, unlike almost everyone else who survived, he never wrote his memoirs. He had planned to write a history of the Army of Northern Virginia, but was felled by a stroke before he could spare the time from his job as head of Washington College.

As to his position in the South, he was already a revered figure before the war ended. Indeed, once Jefferson Davis and much of the Confederate government fled Richmond, he could be said to be the figurehead of the entire Confederacy. When he surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia and about 25,000 men, there were still about 175,000 men in the Confederate ranks. But the other armies went down like dominoes when they heard Lee had surrendered.

A second and almost as important point is that he was just about the perfect figure to embody the Lost Cause mythos -- Prof. Gary Gallagher has lectured well on the subject:
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses ... mmand.html
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RE: Post War Robert E Lee

Post by TheGrayMouser »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Lee's daughters were supposed to receive money. The money was supposed to come from the sale of land/property but Lee did not want to sell the property. He eventually did sell the property.

He did have them whipped. Apparently the sheriff/constable did so and was paid.

Did you research find out how many blacks were held as slaves by other blacks?

Yes I am aware that at least some blacks owned slaves in early America, although I have no idea if any did during Lees lifetime, or how its really relevant to this topic.... Do you know ?, if so why not share the details?

I hope I'm wrong but I think you were trying to bait me into something here? Especially since you phrase " did you research this..." Are you implying that I have no interest or knowledge in the topic and thus I'm researching little details to win arguments? That I go around and find "bad things to say" about historical figures just for the sake of it?

I almost never get involved in these topics, but in this particular one where a few posters were looking for information or insights, some of the answers were not really giving the whole picture, I made one post to fill in the "gap".

Any how I see that in another post you and another feel that some people are not judging historical figures by the standards of their times. I'm not sure if that is directed to me or in general... I, as much is feasible and or possible try and see the world thru "their" eyes. My synospis that Lee was a conformist at best was giving him the benefit of the doubt thru the eyes of his contemporaries. I stand by it, perhaps it too generous though?

After all, he was morally against slavery yet his "honor and duty" compelled him to fight for it. Lets not pretend here, the states that seceeded made it VERY clear why they did so, and no one can pretend they didnt know what would happen next. Lee put every ounce of his heart, soul and ability for THAT cause, to the bitter end no less. His post war writing does appear to show the man perhaps had changed and wanted to move on. My guess is he would perhaps be appalled on how he became a poster boy for the lost cause mentality.

How far does honor and duty go? A timeless dilmena no doubt, best expressed in one of the greatest movies of all time, The Wild Bunch:

Pike and Dutch reminesse on their old comrade Thornton whom now works for the railroad to take their heads for a bounty

Pike: What would you have him do, he gave his WORD!
Dutch: But to the RAILROAD!!
Pike: It's his WORD!
Dutch: Its not his word , but WHOM he gives it to!

I tend to side with Dutch here, but who knows. Taken to either extreme you'ld be end up like a Stonewall, a true Loon!

Have a safe and happy 4th all, I know I will have a safe one because the Nanny State I live in reminds me not to do all the un-safe and illegal things I might want to do via the digital highway sighns, instead of warning me of accidents, traffic or inclement weather...
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