Please Do Not Change Logistics System

A military-oriented and sci-fi wargame, set on procedural planets with customizable factions and endless choices.

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gatsby
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Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by gatsby »

I started a new thread because I came here to see if there was a new update and lo and behold I saw this thread about the logistics system being a mess...I immediately fired off a reply because I was flabbergasted and worried that the designer would start to screw around with the logistics because of a few people who can't figure it out.

As I said in my other post: This is the one of the best games I have ever bought and I have been buying these things for a long long time. My 20 year old son and I have been playing non stop since it came out. We have not run into one logistics problem that could not be solved with the logic inherent in the game. Either its a traffic signal, a truck depot upgrade,a supply depot to extend or a myriad of other tweaks. Its wonderful to actually have a logistics tail which can be micromanaged like this.If I have overloaded a front with battalions I had better accommodate it.

I understand that we live in a culture that if we don't like the ending of a show or movie we expect the creators to change it. I joke that maybe the groundlings should have shouted to Shakespeare to change the ending of Hamlet because its too bloody and I don't want Hamlet to die. Its the same idea that if I say something that offends you I should stop saying it ...LOL...Okay Lenny Bruce shut the f*** up?

Once again Please Please do not change the logistics system to accommodate these folk. There are loads of games with simple pull systems. Hold the line be true to your vision.If you think its broken okay I get it but to change it because a few people can't or won't figure it out. I read that entire thread and I didn't see one problem that wasn't solvable with a little time and a little manual. This game takes some work. I like that.Hold the line. LOL
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devoncop
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by devoncop »

100% agree.

Fine post....both in its praise for the game and in its perceptive social commentary [:)]

(Expect a thread to emerge very soon suggesting all players in a MP should be allowed to "win" simultaneously to ensure nobody gets upset by losing) [8|]
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OldSarge
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by OldSarge »

I'm on T100 of my 3rd game, which I started when Vic put 1.03b1 out. I have come to love the logistics system and have it working pretty well. At least well enough to span the map. [:D]

The addition of the ability to remove roads has really improved things by allowing the player to unclog the maze of AI drawn roads.
You and the rest, you forgot the first rule of the fanatic: When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy.
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GodwinW
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by GodwinW »

@OP: I agree. Been stating as such in the thread. Maybe this should be in the Suggestions subforum actually?
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Frostwave
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by Frostwave »

Hamlet dies ?!?!?!?!
Spoiler alert that shit


"I hope so for your sake, Commander.
The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."
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devoncop
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by devoncop »

ORIGINAL: Frostwave

Hamlet dies ?!?!?!?!
Spoiler alert that shit



Funny guy [:)]
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
zgrssd
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by zgrssd »

The Logistics System has a learning curve. And it needs a better explanation. I tried my luck at that later part.

But with those informations, at least 90% of people seem to be able to use it. So I doubt it is the fault of the System.
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Jdane
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by Jdane »

I understand your concerns and have myself been liking to play with the current logistics system, but I'm not preoccupied by VR's announcement. (link for reference)
ORIGINAL: Vic

[...] I am thinking in the direction of allowing some "pull" systems to work in tandem with the current systems to make it easier if you do not want to micro-manage.[...]

(I underlined the significant bits.)
I'm quite confident VR is thinking of a way to add onto the current system without detracting anything from it for those who already enjoy it as is.
But admittedly, that's just my uniformed opinion and borders the realm of wishing for what one wants.

Finally, I truly respect your right to voice your concerns, and am in no way trying to shut you down. I was just wanting to point out the clues that have me believing VR will stick to his vision and not dumb down his game, while still addressing the wishes of another part of his player base.
VoodooDog
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by VoodooDog »

how so?
it was one of the few things i instantly understood. it behaves logically and intuitive.
DeltaV112
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by DeltaV112 »

I find it rather insulting that you think that the only reason someone could want the logistics system changed is "because they can't figure it out". I figured the logistics system out quite well, but I hated actually managing it. Adding traffic signs all over conquered territory and checking every turn to make sure that there wasn't a road I was missing or new asset, adjusting the partial signs to optimize throughput down the primary logistical routes, doing the math on how much extra capacity I would need for an offensive and where to put supply bases and truck stations to extend range, it was all perfectly comprehensible and the least fun part of the game.
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W8taminute
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by W8taminute »

I also want to add my voice to the "Please do not change the logistics system" group.

Although I don't fully understand it I am beginning to really like it compared to logistics systems in other games. I also like to micromanage this aspect of Shadow Empires and it brings me joy. It is exciting to learn something new and I don't want my experience with Shadow Empires to sour because someone else can't understand and won't try to understand. Not all games are the same.

If any changes are made please allow the option for keeping the original logistics system.
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Destragon
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by Destragon »

The system does have some actual issues. I wrote about that stuff here:
fb.asp?m=4828365
It's pretty much just about how micromanagement heavy the traffic sign system is.
Number 4 in my post there is probably annoying me the most while playing. I keep having to double check my road network to make sure that some civilians didn't suddenly build a mine somewhere, which causes half the logistics, which were heading to some important front, to be diverted and wasted, without giving you any notification or warning beforehand.
If those civilian buildings would AUTOMATICALLY place a traffic sign when they get built, it would be a huge improvement.
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Grotius
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by Grotius »

I agree with the original post: I like the logistics system the way it is. I like micromanaging the traffic signals, and it really doesn't require much micromanagement in the first place.
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Nemo84
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: DeltaV112

I find it rather insulting that you think that the only reason someone could want the logistics system changed is "because they can't figure it out". I figured the logistics system out quite well, but I hated actually managing it. Adding traffic signs all over conquered territory and checking every turn to make sure that there wasn't a road I was missing or new asset, adjusting the partial signs to optimize throughput down the primary logistical routes, doing the math on how much extra capacity I would need for an offensive and where to put supply bases and truck stations to extend range, it was all perfectly comprehensible and the least fun part of the game.

Fully agreed!

The logistics system is rather simple to figure out compared to some other wargames (which is a good thing). The changes being requested in the logistics thread are merely aimed at removing brainless busywork. Being forced to place a traffic sign on every road leading to a lvl.1 farm is not a deep strategic decision.
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76mm
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
The changes being requested in the logistics thread are merely aimed at removing brainless busywork. Being forced to place a traffic sign on every road leading to a lvl.1 farm is not a deep strategic decision.
+1
zgrssd
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: DeltaV112

I find it rather insulting that you think that the only reason someone could want the logistics system changed is "because they can't figure it out". I figured the logistics system out quite well, but I hated actually managing it. Adding traffic signs all over conquered territory and checking every turn to make sure that there wasn't a road I was missing or new asset, adjusting the partial signs to optimize throughput down the primary logistical routes, doing the math on how much extra capacity I would need for an offensive and where to put supply bases and truck stations to extend range, it was all perfectly comprehensible and the least fun part of the game.
If you are still doing that, you do not have not actuall figured it out yet.
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tortugapower
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by tortugapower »

I don't have time to read "Logistics is a mess" thread. However, in this thread which is much younger (and easier/quicker to read), I will plop down my two cents:

1. Logistics system as-is is very opaque. Forgive the ego, but I consider myself decent-to-advanced at understanding wargames, and I don't understand it. This is ultimately a design decision, but that means the game -- which has great appeal so far to a widespread group, beyond hardcore wargamers -- likely won't be understood by newcomers, who will get frustrated and stop playing. (I've already seen this happening.)

2. There's probably changes that can be made that automate things and still allow people to override manually (traffic signals comes to mind). This is also a design decision, and also going to be more inclusive to non-hardcore wargamers if done. (I'm not accounting for the dev time for this, which might be unrealistic.)

On design decisions I defer to Vic, who has already made many games I love.
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shi4stone
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by shi4stone »

i love how i feel like playing transport tycoon in this game. the only grip on the logistics is when private economy build a farm next to my artery road, and me not aware losing half of the capacity to that... so i have to check the preview every turn, not a big deal, but maybe a notification of newly construct asset outside connected towns could be good.
zgrssd
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: tortugapower

I don't have time to read "Logistics is a mess" thread. However, in this thread which is much younger (and easier/quicker to read), I will plop down my two cents:

1. Logistics system as-is is very opaque. Forgive the ego, but I consider myself decent-to-advanced at understanding wargames, and I don't understand it. This is ultimately a design decision, but that means the game -- which has great appeal so far to a widespread group, beyond hardcore wargamers -- likely won't be understood by newcomers, who will get frustrated and stop playing. (I've already seen this happening.)

2. There's probably changes that can be made that automate things and still allow people to override manually (traffic signals comes to mind). This is also a design decision, and also going to be more inclusive to non-hardcore wargamers if done. (I'm not accounting for the dev time for this, which might be unrealistic.)

On design decisions I defer to Vic, who has already made many games I love.
For 1, there is this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
I fully agree it needs more Documentation/expalantion.

For 2. I particulary would like a "dead end" detection. Something that can tell the difference between a road leading to another Logistics asset or city, vs well...a dead end that only has like 1-2 assets and a enemy border with no troops at the end.

But from practice, this might actually make it harder. "Nothing is quite as dumb, as code that tries to be smart" is soemthing I like to say.
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border10
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

Post by border10 »

I like the system as is. A couple of days ago I wouldn't have said that. Experimentation and this forum did the trick. Once I understood the system, I realized my road network was half my problem. Now I keep separate branches separate. I don't connect them. Strange things happen when I do. And so now I get a sense of satisfaction as I expand on a solid foundation, continually branching out, adding stations and supply bases as needed. It's fun because I know what will happen and can plan.
My one gripe is the 'clear all signs' button. A confirmation button, or just move it, would help.
Looking back on all this, I think what would really help more than anything is to devote a chapter on logistics. I can read what's in the manual and understand it...now, with 20/20. But back then? It would have been nice to have spent less time figuring this out. Maybe explain several different scenarios, each one more complex than the last.
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