Ki-100 as R&D Target

[Q-Ball]

I have a question, and maybe I misunderstand all the nuances of R&D...I see alot of Imperial players making heavy R&D investments in the George, Frank, and Sam. And those are deserving of investment no doubt. But what about the Ki-100...is this plane perhaps the most deserving?

The Ki-100 is not a significant improvement over the Frank it seems at low to medium altitudes, but is at high altitudes. Equally important is the SR of 1....which means more Ki-100s are going to be available to fly..no small thing. It uses a common engine, the Ha-33, so it's relatively easy to supply with engines as well. If you plan ahead, building 500 extra Ha-33 to get the bonus isn't a big problem.

But unless I am missing something, isn't it also way easier to accelerate the Ki-100?

You can build, say, 10 Tony Factories right away. You don't want to build any Tonys, but those factories will repair faster than Frank because of the 11/42 date on the Tony. By 11/42, you can repair all 10 factories and upgrade to Ki-100, generating 10 RD Points PER DAY. Holy Accelerated R&D Batman!!!

Is there a cap on R&D Acceleration? If not, one could get the Ki-100 very, very early. Moving a month every 10 days, something like mid-1943.

Also, how is the in-game performance of the Ki-100 vs. Frank, George, and other late war fighters?

Thanks!!!!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I have a question, and maybe I misunderstand all the nuances of R&D...I see alot of Imperial players making heavy R&D investments in the George, Frank, and Sam. And those are deserving of investment no doubt. But what about the Ki-100...is this plane perhaps the most deserving?

The Ki-100 is not a significant improvement over the Frank it seems at low to medium altitudes, but is at high altitudes. Equally important is the SR of 1....which means more Ki-100s are going to be available to fly..no small thing. It uses a common engine, the Ha-33, so it's relatively easy to supply with engines as well. If you plan ahead, building 500 extra Ha-33 to get the bonus isn't a big problem.

But unless I am missing something, isn't it also way easier to accelerate the Ki-100?

You can build, say, 10 Tony Factories right away. You don't want to build any Tonys, but those factories will repair faster than Frank because of the 11/42 date on the Tony. By 11/42, you can repair all 10 factories and upgrade to Ki-100, generating 10 RD Points PER DAY. Holy Accelerated R&D Batman!!!

Is there a cap on R&D Acceleration? If not, one could get the Ki-100 very, very early. Moving a month every 10 days, something like mid-1943.

Also, how is the in-game performance of the Ki-100 vs. Frank, George, and other late war fighters?

Thanks!!!!

Unless you're using the JWE air fix boost for certain airframes, the Ki-100 isn't better than the Frank at any altitude, and isn't really even worth building from my point of view. The Ki-100-II is slightly better, but I found my Tojos were almost equal to it against fighters in the late war. It's good against bombers, but when are yo going to face bombers only?

Better to make a gazillion Franks and Georges.

I would instead plan to get the Frank Ki-84r AND the Ki-84b as early as possible. I like the "b" a lot, both for its longer range and for it's CL canons against bombers. The "r" holds up better agains the Allied best, but both are good, and miles better than the Ki-100.

The N1K5 last model George is my favourite of the late war though. A very good sweeper as well as CAP fighter.

The J7W is very good for point defence and the Ki-83 is your sweeper extraordinaire.

In my low layered CAP system I'd prefer the Oscar IV to the Ki-100 for a service 1 fighter, as it's way more manoeuvrable, roughly the same speed, still has CL canons, and you can easily push it ahead earlier. You're already going to make Oscars, so just keep the line going.

[RangerJoe]

With the engine bonus, you only need five Tony factories repaired to get 10 points per day.

The Oscar also uses a common engine that you won't need as many of once you end production of the Kate as well as the Sam.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

With the engine bonus, you only need five Tony factories repaired to get 10 points per day.

The Oscar also uses a common engine that you won't need as many of once you end production of the Kate as well as the Sam.

I used to be down on the Oscar, but I've warmed up to it a bit. Seems OK on layered cap, it's easy to produce like you say, and if you train the pilots on Low N it's got a decent bombload

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

With the engine bonus, you only need five Tony factories repaired to get 10 points per day.

The Oscar also uses a common engine that you won't need as many of once you end production of the Kate as well as the Sam.

I used to be down on the Oscar, but I've warmed up to it a bit. Seems OK on layered cap, it's easy to produce like you say, and if you train the pilots on Low N it's got a decent bombload

You can make all the planes work in different roles throughout the game. Oscars are good escort planes too, with one of the highest cruise speeds in the game and some models have outstanding ranges.

If you like the Tony, go for it. Just don't expect wonders.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
But unless I am missing something, isn't it also way easier to accelerate the Ki-100?

You can build, say, 10 Tony Factories right away. You don't want to build any Tonys, but those factories will repair faster than Frank because of the 11/42 date on the Tony. By 11/42, you can repair all 10 factories and upgrade to Ki-100, generating 10 RD Points PER DAY. Holy Accelerated R&D Batman!!!

If you are allowed to hop over intermediate models and not research them, then by all means, go for Ki-100-II. Exactly for the reasons you mentioned - getting fully repaired factories very early.
Many players see this hopping as gamey though and prefer/demand full research on all the intermediate models on the R&D path. Then Ki-100 arrives too late, and lacks speed to compete

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I have a question, and maybe I misunderstand all the nuances of R&D...I see alot of Imperial players making heavy R&D investments in the George, Frank, and Sam. And those are deserving of investment no doubt. But what about the Ki-100...is this plane perhaps the most deserving?

The Ki-100 is not a significant improvement over the Frank it seems at low to medium altitudes, but is at high altitudes. Equally important is the SR of 1....which means more Ki-100s are going to be available to fly..no small thing. It uses a common engine, the Ha-33, so it's relatively easy to supply with engines as well. If you plan ahead, building 500 extra Ha-33 to get the bonus isn't a big problem.

But unless I am missing something, isn't it also way easier to accelerate the Ki-100?

You can build, say, 10 Tony Factories right away. You don't want to build any Tonys, but those factories will repair faster than Frank because of the 11/42 date on the Tony. By 11/42, you can repair all 10 factories and upgrade to Ki-100, generating 10 RD Points PER DAY. Holy Accelerated R&D Batman!!!

Is there a cap on R&D Acceleration? If not, one could get the Ki-100 very, very early. Moving a month every 10 days, something like mid-1943.

Also, how is the in-game performance of the Ki-100 vs. Frank, George, and other late war fighters?

Thanks!!!!

Hi Q-ball,

Yeah, I'm big on the Ki-100-I acceleration for the reasons you cite. In my current Sc. 2 game, using engine bonuses and 6x research factories (transferred after the Ki-61a research matured, but before production), I should be slated to get these bad boys mid-1943. To me, it's a no brainer. 500 spare Ha-33s is doable to provide the research engine bonus and maximize that benefit.

I'm not a big fan of the 'go big or go home' Frank-or-bust approach, and prefer to have some airframe diversification. Full disclosure: I haven't been to 1945 in a game yet, but I can't see how having a 1945 airframe (that was very good IRL) in 1943 would *ever* be a bad thing.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I have a question, and maybe I misunderstand all the nuances of R&D...I see alot of Imperial players making heavy R&D investments in the George, Frank, and Sam. And those are deserving of investment no doubt. But what about the Ki-100...is this plane perhaps the most deserving?

The Ki-100 is not a significant improvement over the Frank it seems at low to medium altitudes, but is at high altitudes. Equally important is the SR of 1....which means more Ki-100s are going to be available to fly..no small thing. It uses a common engine, the Ha-33, so it's relatively easy to supply with engines as well. If you plan ahead, building 500 extra Ha-33 to get the bonus isn't a big problem.

But unless I am missing something, isn't it also way easier to accelerate the Ki-100?

You can build, say, 10 Tony Factories right away. You don't want to build any Tonys, but those factories will repair faster than Frank because of the 11/42 date on the Tony. By 11/42, you can repair all 10 factories and upgrade to Ki-100, generating 10 RD Points PER DAY. Holy Accelerated R&D Batman!!!

Is there a cap on R&D Acceleration? If not, one could get the Ki-100 very, very early. Moving a month every 10 days, something like mid-1943.

Also, how is the in-game performance of the Ki-100 vs. Frank, George, and other late war fighters?

Thanks!!!!

Hi Q-ball,

Yeah, I'm big on the Ki-100-I acceleration for the reasons you cite. In my current Sc. 2 game, using engine bonuses and 6x research factories (transferred after the Ki-61a research matured, but before production), I should be slated to get these bad boys mid-1943. To me, it's a no brainer. 500 spare Ha-33s is doable to provide the research engine bonus and maximize that benefit.

I'm not a big fan of the 'go big or go home' Frank-or-bust approach, and prefer to have some airframe diversification. Full disclosure: I haven't been to 1945 in a game yet, but I can't see how having a 1945 airframe (that was very good IRL) in 1943 would *ever* be a bad thing.

just because it's much worse in game than in RL, unfortunately. Have a go. I did twice and couldn't justify it in the end. Just ended up using most of them for training.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: obvert
just because it's much worse in game than in RL, unfortunately. Have a go. I did twice and couldn't justify it in the end. Just ended up using most of them for training.

I had a go against AI Ironman too. While Allies lack modern fighter escorts Ki-100 is the best 4E killer, bar none. But it requires research hopping and lasts only for 43 and some 44, then becoming obsolete when new speedy Allied fighters arrive

[offenseman]

The CL cannon are especially enticing as is the Service rating of 1 but in several trips to late 44 and 45, they just cannot compete with the Allied crates on that era. I've tried and tried and tried, and failed.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: obvert
just because it's much worse in game than in RL, unfortunately. Have a go. I did twice and couldn't justify it in the end. Just ended up using most of them for training.

I had a go against AI Ironman too. While Allies lack modern fighter escorts Ki-100 is the best 4E killer, bar none. But it requires research hopping and lasts only for 43 and some 44, then becoming obsolete when new speedy Allied fighters arrive

Well, the J7W, the N1K5 and the Frank Ki-84b I found to be better than the Ki-100 at getting to and killing bombers. Any one of those also lasts better through Allied sweep or escorts. The Allies get P-47s and Corsairs well before the Ki-100 is available with the most aggressive R & D and those two will rip the Ki-100 to shreds easily.

I'm all about experimenting, but having played through to 45/46 twice against very potent Allied air campaigns, I would now advocate for fewer models researched, sticking to the George and Frank as your main options produced in high numbers.

[mind_messing]

Where the Ki-100 shines over the Oscar is in that extra durability.

The Oscar series has the second lowest durability of IJ fighters (with 23), second only to the Ki-202 Shusei (which is basically a rocket with wings and some cannon. Even the Nate (24 durability) beats the Oscars.

From what I've seen, that extra durability gives them a little more staying power in combat, as pretty much all damage to the Oscars is either an outright kill or forces an RTB (with a die roll of Ops loss in the bargain).

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
I had a go against AI Ironman too. While Allies lack modern fighter escorts Ki-100 is the best 4E killer, bar none. But it requires research hopping and lasts only for 43 and some 44, then becoming obsolete when new speedy Allied fighters arrive

Well, the J7W, the N1K5 and the Frank Ki-84b I found to be better than the Ki-100 at getting to and killing bombers. Any one of those also lasts better through Allied sweep or escorts. The Allies get P-47s and Corsairs well before the Ki-100 is available with the most aggressive R & D and those two will rip the Ki-100 to shreds easily.

That's exactly what I wrote, innit? You can't get those 3rd gens in 43, and Ki-100 plugs the hole

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
I had a go against AI Ironman too. While Allies lack modern fighter escorts Ki-100 is the best 4E killer, bar none. But it requires research hopping and lasts only for 43 and some 44, then becoming obsolete when new speedy Allied fighters arrive

Well, the J7W, the N1K5 and the Frank Ki-84b I found to be better than the Ki-100 at getting to and killing bombers. Any one of those also lasts better through Allied sweep or escorts. The Allies get P-47s and Corsairs well before the Ki-100 is available with the most aggressive R & D and those two will rip the Ki-100 to shreds easily.

That's exactly what I wrote, innit? You can't get those 3rd gens in 43, and Ki-100 plugs the hole

You can get the George in late 42 and the Frank in early 43, so where would the Ki-100 plug a hole? You have the Tojo for mid 42 and as soon as the Tojo is outdated the George arrives, followed by the Frank in mid 43. Then there's a long journey until anything like Ki-83 or Ki-94 or J7W.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: obvert

Well, the J7W, the N1K5 and the Frank Ki-84b I found to be better than the Ki-100 at getting to and killing bombers. Any one of those also lasts better through Allied sweep or escorts. The Allies get P-47s and Corsairs well before the Ki-100 is available with the most aggressive R & D and those two will rip the Ki-100 to shreds easily.

That's exactly what I wrote, innit? You can't get those 3rd gens in 43, and Ki-100 plugs the hole

You can get the George in late 42 and the Frank in early 43, so where would the Ki-100 plug a hole? You have the Tojo for mid 42 and as soon as the Tojo is outdated the George arrives, followed by the Frank in mid 43. Then there's a long journey until anything like Ki-83 or Ki-94 or J7W.

What was the earliest that you have received the Ki-84b (per the specific subject above)? "Early" 1943? Doubtful. I can't even imagine that the Ki-84a would be available 'early' 1943 without prohibitive research factory stacking (see previous comment about 'all-or-nothing-Frank-or-bust').

ETA: Perhaps you meant "Jack"? in early 1943?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


That's exactly what I wrote, innit? You can't get those 3rd gens in 43, and Ki-100 plugs the hole

You can get the George in late 42 and the Frank in early 43, so where would the Ki-100 plug a hole? You have the Tojo for mid 42 and as soon as the Tojo is outdated the George arrives, followed by the Frank in mid 43. Then there's a long journey until anything like Ki-83 or Ki-94 or J7W.

What was the earliest that you have received the Ki-84b (per the specific subject above)? "Early" 1943? Doubtful. I can't even imagine that the Ki-84a would be available 'early' 1943 without prohibitive research factory stacking (see previous comment about 'all-or-nothing-Frank-or-bust').

ETA: Perhaps you meant "Jack"? in early 1943?

I'm not talking about the Ki-84b but the Ki-84a. While the b is nice due to a 2 point higher gun value it's insane to aim for the b when you could have the more or less equal a version in early 43. When I say early 43 I'm talking about 4/43, easily doable. Not sure what you mean by all or nothing, if I do research, then I do research to get some specific aircraft earlier. Not 2 years earlier but 6-12 months, the later the arrival, the more months earlier I get out of R&D. I see no sense in doing research on a dozen aircraft to get all of them some 2 months earlier, which means just nothing.

Getting the Tojo in 5/42, the George in 12/42 and the Frank (a) in 5/43 does mean something. Same goes for the Judy in early 43, one of the models that carries a real bomb (pick your version). I've done all of this in pretty much every of my games except those where R&D was limited to max 6 months ahead of normal arrival.

Didn't mean the Jack because when I research the George, I would never research the Jack too.

edit: and I'm talking about DBB mod, so normal arrival dates might be a tad different to vanilla

[PaxMondo]

George, Frank, Sam, Ki-83. Those 4 as early as you can. Hard for me to allocate RnD to anything else.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
You can get the George in late 42 and the Frank in early 43, so where would the Ki-100 plug a hole?

You may have forgot what a pain it is to use service 3 fighters on forward bases. I did not.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: castor troy





You can get the George in late 42 and the Frank in early 43, so where would the Ki-100 plug a hole? You have the Tojo for mid 42 and as soon as the Tojo is outdated the George arrives, followed by the Frank in mid 43. Then there's a long journey until anything like Ki-83 or Ki-94 or J7W.

What was the earliest that you have received the Ki-84b (per the specific subject above)? "Early" 1943? Doubtful. I can't even imagine that the Ki-84a would be available 'early' 1943 without prohibitive research factory stacking (see previous comment about 'all-or-nothing-Frank-or-bust').

ETA: Perhaps you meant "Jack"? in early 1943?

I'm not talking about the Ki-84b but the Ki-84a. While the b is nice due to a 2 point higher gun value it's insane to aim for the b when you could have the more or less equal a version in early 43. When I say early 43 I'm talking about 4/43, easily doable. Not sure what you mean by all or nothing, if I do research, then I do research to get some specific aircraft earlier. Not 2 years earlier but 6-12 months, the later the arrival, the more months earlier I get out of R&D. I see no sense in doing research on a dozen aircraft to get all of them some 2 months earlier, which means just nothing.

Getting the Tojo in 5/42, the George in 12/42 and the Frank (a) in 5/43 does mean something. Same goes for the Judy in early 43, one of the models that carries a real bomb (pick your version). I've done all of this in pretty much every of my games except those where R&D was limited to max 6 months ahead of normal arrival.

Didn't mean the Jack because when I research the George, I would never research the Jack too.

edit: and I'm talking about DBB mod, so normal arrival dates might be a tad different to vanilla

I think Frank A gets a few month earlier arrival in DBB over stock.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: castor troy
You can get the George in late 42 and the Frank in early 43, so where would the Ki-100 plug a hole?

You may have forgot what a pain it is to use service 3 fighters on forward bases. I did not.

You have the Tojo 'c' for plugging this hole, which is a great defensive F through 44. It's high climb rate, manoeuvre and speed advantage make it much better than the Ki-100 in a defensive role even without the CL 20mm.

Using it with the George works even in forward bases, but I tend not to heavily defend forward island bases in 43 since we all know the limitations of that and how it ends up. I'd rather pop in and out to hit selected strikes, slowing the Allied advance but not trying to put 300-400 fighters on a forward island.

Each player has their own style, obviously, but the Ki-100 is just not that good and you have equally good platforms, depending on your style of play, available at equivalent times.