When an upgrade is not an upgrade

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Q-Ball
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When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by Q-Ball »

I wanted to check with veteran IJN players on what models you choose NOT to upgrade. Here is what I have, any thoughts?

D3A1 to D3A2 Val: Just not worth giving up 1 hex of range, IMO. Agree?

Nicks: KA1b and KA1c versions feature useless cannons; just build 5/42 version and Night Fighter (which still has a crap cannon, but there are no other IJA options)

Tojo: IIb or not IIb? Definitely not IIb with that crap cannon. IIc is good though.

Dinah: Don't build the Fighter version due to cannon accuracy. The Night Fighter is OK, though Randy is the only good IJA Night Fighter

Topsy: Kind of minor, but the I version uses stocks of otherwise useless engines, while the II version draws on Ha-31s....otherwise they look identical.

That's about all I could find.....is that it? Any other upgrades to miss?

Also:

G3M3 includes a RADAR. Does that Radar actually do anything? This looks like a good search plane anyway with the range; doesn't really offer anything else over the Betty

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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by RangerJoe »

I understand that the Radar gives a 5% increase in search. Useful at night to try and find the target.

Idas, keep building them for trainers and action in China. There are a lot of engines for them and waiting until later so they carry a bigger bomb? What chance will you have to use them?

Sonia, use them but I am not going to build more. Why wait for the version with the bigger bomb.

A6M3 and A6M3a, but going through the Rufe => A6M5 is quick enough. Especially with 6 R & D factories and the engine bonus.
A6M7 is not on the regular A6M research path, go to the A6M8.

Skip the first two Judys to get to the third one which uses a common engine.

Skip the Ki-61 Tonys and go to the Ki-100 which uses a common engine. You can get this in later 1943 and it has cannons, unlike the Tojo IIa, IIc. Good for low CAP since it is maneuverable. SR is 1 which is nice.

Go to the Peggy T, it will carry the same bomb load but it can carry torpedoes. An ARMY torpedo bomber . . . Train the pilots in Low Nav before you get this plane and it will bomb at low altitude with no penalty if the unit is set to torpedo attack but no torpedoes are available.
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mind_messing
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I wanted to check with veteran IJN players on what models you choose NOT to upgrade. Here is what I have, any thoughts?

D3A1 to D3A2 Val: Just not worth giving up 1 hex of range, IMO. Agree?

Nicks: KA1b and KA1c versions feature useless cannons; just build 5/42 version and Night Fighter (which still has a crap cannon, but there are no other IJA options)

Tojo: IIb or not IIb? Definitely not IIb with that crap cannon. IIc is good though.

Dinah: Don't build the Fighter version due to cannon accuracy. The Night Fighter is OK, though Randy is the only good IJA Night Fighter

Topsy: Kind of minor, but the I version uses stocks of otherwise useless engines, while the II version draws on Ha-31s....otherwise they look identical.

That's about all I could find.....is that it? Any other upgrades to miss?

Also:

G3M3 includes a RADAR. Does that Radar actually do anything? This looks like a good search plane anyway with the range; doesn't really offer anything else over the Betty


Val - agreed

Nick - agreed, first model is the best

Tojo - I don't like them anyways and prefer to not use them

Dinah - Lowpe likes the Dinah fighters, I'm not sold. The night fighter is essential as the Randy arrives late.

Topsy - meh

G3M3 - wonder plane. Massive range, carries a torpedo, gets radar. Even if it is slower than two weeks of quarantine, it has massive utility as search/asw/long range raider.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by PaxMondo »

G3M3 - one of my favorite planes ...
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Q-Ball
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Tojo - I don't like them anyways and prefer to not use them

That's interesting....what do you use instead of the Tojo? It's not an amazing plane, but it's that or the Oscar for a long while until you get the Frank. The SR of 1 is certainly nice.

Just curious what you build instead of Tojo. Tony?
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Tojo - I don't like them anyways and prefer to not use them

That's interesting....what do you use instead of the Tojo? It's not an amazing plane, but it's that or the Oscar for a long while until you get the Frank. The SR of 1 is certainly nice.

Just curious what you build instead of Tojo. Tony?

I plan on using the Tojo until the Tony Ki-100 comes in.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by ITAKLinus »

I don't like Tojos either.

I generally go fully for the Oscar until the end of the world. I love oscars: they have outrageously high losses but they have nice 20mm guns, a fairly decent speed (-16mph compared to tojos) and a wonderful range.
Also, they can occasionally serve as fighter-bombers, something not to neglect.


Anyway:

-Val : I don't upgrade them
-A6M : the A6M8 is not really an upgrade compared to A6M5c and in line of principle the A6M5c is a better plane under many points of view
-Tojo : go straight to the -IIc and you're happy. Skip the rest.
-Oscar : go straight to the -IV and skip the rest. They are moderately good planes, but it's better to have the final model ASAP since the other ones aren't such an improvement over the crappy -Ic.
-Nick : first model is the best
-G3M3 : wonderful plane and it's definitely the model you should have until very late in the war. Super slow and easy target even if escorted, but it does wonders when you strike far behind enemy lines. Extremely good recon until the Dinah-III kicks into production.
-Mavis-II : I don't even remember the name of the second one. Don't produce it. The increase in the range is useless since you have the Emily, which is far better.
-Transports : I only produce Thalia for the entire duration of the war. Never got passioned by anything else: it uses the common Ha-35 (in surplus at later stages of the war), it has a wonderful range and it's decent in terms of cargo capacity.
-Kate : here is tricky. I simply put into production both the Kate-I and the Kate-II, since the first one uses engines which are in the warehouses and should be depleted. Kate-II it's obviously better (SR=1 versus SR=2 of the Kate-I) but, industrially speaking, it makes sense to use both the models. IIRC, at 7th Dec there is no factory producing the Kate-I.
- Tony : if you go for it (and I never do), just go for the last model and skip the guys in between
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by geofflambert »

Tojo makes a good sweeper for a while. Service rating an asset. It can shoot down search and recon planes just fine. It can sweep against the Brits til late. If you have the numerical advantage situations may arise where you sweep against the best of them, even P-47s.

The G3M3 once it has radar can search at night and you'll lose fewer of them and be able to search in some otherwise no-go areas. I don't yet know how well it does against subs at night. Also don't know how it does with naval attack at night, but it's worth a try.

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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by geofflambert »

Oscar IIa and b are naval attack aircraft. Range and bomb load excellent. Kamikazes too if you go that way.

mind_messing
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Tojo - I don't like them anyways and prefer to not use them

That's interesting....what do you use instead of the Tojo? It's not an amazing plane, but it's that or the Oscar for a long while until you get the Frank. The SR of 1 is certainly nice.

Just curious what you build instead of Tojo. Tony?

Use the Nick, and boost it out with the Jack/George. As they come online. If you're careful you can make that work until you can bring the Tony 100 and the Frank online.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by Scott_USN »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I understand that the Radar gives a 5% increase in search. Useful at night to try and find the target.

Idas, keep building them for trainers and action in China. There are a lot of engines for them and waiting until later so they carry a bigger bomb? What chance will you have to use them?

Sonia, use them but I am not going to build more. Why wait for the version with the bigger bomb.

A6M3 and A6M3a, but going through the Rufe => A6M5 is quick enough. Especially with 6 R & D factories and the engine bonus.
A6M7 is not on the regular A6M research path, go to the A6M8.

Skip the first two Judys to get to the third one which uses a common engine.

Skip the Ki-61 Tonys and go to the Ki-100 which uses a common engine. You can get this in later 1943 and it has cannons, unlike the Tojo IIa, IIc. Good for low CAP since it is maneuverable. SR is 1 which is nice.

Go to the Peggy T, it will carry the same bomb load but it can carry torpedoes. An ARMY torpedo bomber . . . Train the pilots in Low Nav before you get this plane and it will bomb at low altitude with no penalty if the unit is set to torpedo attack but no torpedoes are available.

Unreal! I know playing Japan is the real satisfaction but all that knowledge needed to play effective! I think my head would explode!
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by ITAKLinus »

I instead don't go for the Judy-III. I prefer to have a small production of Judy-I and then I go directly for the Judy-IV, which is by far the best.
Judy-Is are then mainly used on land based groups due to their good range.

Judy-Is are good enough to do the job for a while and I don't delay the arrival of the guys with the big bomb. I am really in love with the 800Kg bomb carried by Judy-IVs.

Note that I generlly invest quite a lot in R&D for dive bombers (5-6 factories) in order to have a quick arrival of the Judy-IV and a massive initial production.
Also, Ha-33 is an engine I push very quickly to high numbers due to the joint R&D needs of both the Judy-IV and the A6M8.


What's essential is to get Vals out of your carriers ASAP, since they're awful planes. The 250Kg bomb is their main problem, since it's of doubtful use at best. The short range is the second most relevant problem: with 6 hexes in normal range, they are terrible.
Speed, durability and other statistics complete the picture of a s@tty plane, differently from Kates which are very good (both the Kate-I and the Kate-II) even when Jills are available.
I believe that, all considered, if you go for a decent amount of R&D on dive bombers and you aim at Judy-IV, Judy-IIs and Judy-IIIs are not necessary and it's arguably better to have the Judy-I (since you have to R&D it anyway) as a stop-gap measure and then the Judy-IV directly.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by Trugrit »


In 2016 there was a good thread that I followed and in it was a post by Lokasenna.
fb.asp?m=4138567

I’ve had very good results following his excellent advice.

All except for the Oscar.
I’m sort of a specialist in getting decent performance out of lousy Japanese aircraft.
It is all in pilots, leadership, settings, tactical situation and what you put them up against.

It would be interesting to see if Lokasenna still agrees with his advice of four years ago.

You need to read the whole thread as it is far reaching from many players.

P.S.
It turns out that Lokasenna is one of the premier Japanese players of this game.
I’ve read almost everything he has posted and saved much of it.

He is a sort of a must read for Japanese players.

"A man's got to know his limitations" -Dirty Harry
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

I instead don't go for the Judy-III. I prefer to have a small production of Judy-I and then I go directly for the Judy-IV, which is by far the best.
Judy-Is are then mainly used on land based groups due to their good range.

Judy-Is are good enough to do the job for a while and I don't delay the arrival of the guys with the big bomb. I am really in love with the 800Kg bomb carried by Judy-IVs.

Note that I generlly invest quite a lot in R&D for dive bombers (5-6 factories) in order to have a quick arrival of the Judy-IV and a massive initial production.
Also, Ha-33 is an engine I push very quickly to high numbers due to the joint R&D needs of both the Judy-IV and the A6M8.


What's essential is to get Vals out of your carriers ASAP, since they're awful planes. The 250Kg bomb is their main problem, since it's of doubtful use at best. The short range is the second most relevant problem: with 6 hexes in normal range, they are terrible.
Speed, durability and other statistics complete the picture of a s@tty plane, differently from Kates which are very good (both the Kate-I and the Kate-II) even when Jills are available.
I believe that, all considered, if you go for a decent amount of R&D on dive bombers and you aim at Judy-IV, Judy-IIs and Judy-IIIs are not necessary and it's arguably better to have the Judy-I (since you have to R&D it anyway) as a stop-gap measure and then the Judy-IV directly.

You can bypass the Judy model and go straight to the Judy that you prefer. It sort of sounds like picking the wife that you finally settle on, first. All that you have to do is to finish the research factory, then immediately go to the next model, and so on until you get to the one that you want. By not building the first two Judys, then I don''t have to research the engine, nor build the engine. That frees up that factory to research something else.

Plus, the Judy IV was more of a suicide dive bomber. The 500 kg bomb dropped on a ship does a decent job.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

I instead don't go for the Judy-III. I prefer to have a small production of Judy-I and then I go directly for the Judy-IV, which is by far the best.
Judy-Is are then mainly used on land based groups due to their good range.

Judy-Is are good enough to do the job for a while and I don't delay the arrival of the guys with the big bomb. I am really in love with the 800Kg bomb carried by Judy-IVs.

Note that I generlly invest quite a lot in R&D for dive bombers (5-6 factories) in order to have a quick arrival of the Judy-IV and a massive initial production.
Also, Ha-33 is an engine I push very quickly to high numbers due to the joint R&D needs of both the Judy-IV and the A6M8.


What's essential is to get Vals out of your carriers ASAP, since they're awful planes. The 250Kg bomb is their main problem, since it's of doubtful use at best. The short range is the second most relevant problem: with 6 hexes in normal range, they are terrible.
Speed, durability and other statistics complete the picture of a s@tty plane, differently from Kates which are very good (both the Kate-I and the Kate-II) even when Jills are available.
I believe that, all considered, if you go for a decent amount of R&D on dive bombers and you aim at Judy-IV, Judy-IIs and Judy-IIIs are not necessary and it's arguably better to have the Judy-I (since you have to R&D it anyway) as a stop-gap measure and then the Judy-IV directly.

You can bypass the Judy model and go straight to the Judy that you prefer. It sort of sounds like picking the wife that you finally settle on, first. All that you have to do is to finish the research factory, then immediately go to the next model, and so on until you get to the one that you want. By not building the first two Judys, then I don''t have to research the engine, nor build the engine. That frees up that factory to research something else.

Plus, the Judy IV was more of a suicide dive bomber. The 500 kg bomb dropped on a ship does a decent job.


Yes but by the time you have the factories repaired for the Judy-I, you have very little wait before it comes online. On the other side, if you go straight for the Judy-III, you have to wait until it kicks online and it might take a while.
Therefore, I prefer to have a first little bunch of Judy-Is, which basically don't require any wait after factories are repaired, and then I go straight for the JUdy-IV.

It looks like a small difference, but the additional months you would have to spend on Judy-III research can be quite devastating. Having the Judy-IV early in '43 means being able do deal a very big punch in a carrier battle still somehow balanced.




Regarding Lokasenna's advice. I disagree with some of them, especially the Tony. I don't like Tony models at all and I generally don't produce them.
Also, I either produce Jack or George, depending on the game I am doing. I find too complex to have two different fighter lines (plus the embarked ones) for IJNAF. Generally, George is the better one for me.
I don't like the idea of producing Sallies, but that's mainly because I usually produce a massive amount of Helen-IIs. They have 1 more hex in "normal" and it suits perfectly to a bombing campaing of Chungkin from Hankow, which I usually upgrade to AF lvl 9 immediately in the game.
Also, MAD comes online very, very late and I don't bother with it at all. When finally it becomes available, I do see what to do depending on the general situation.
Last, but not least, I disagree with the hate toward Oscars. I really love them. They are definitely bad planes when compared to other models such as Tony or Tojo, but they do their dirty job in multi-layered low-level CAPs. Their 2x20mm cannons are quite a good asset, also. Nothing special, but they're pretty accurate and with a respectable punch.

My main problem, a part from altitude and speed of allied aircraft, is to actually shot them down: 20mm cannons do the trick quite well.

The flexibility of the Oscar is its main asset. It can be redeployed fairly easily around the map and it can be a decent CAP when placed in the lowest layer of it.



Of course, each of the suggestions given by players is something that goes a lot into personal preferences and the general strategic and industrial posture. Something that is quite straightforward and legit from my perspective, can be disastrous in someone else's game.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by RangerJoe »

It all depends upon the enemy and what they do and don't do.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by jdsrae »

There’s not a lot of love for the Nick C in here!
In scenario 1, It has the same 20mm centre mount cannon as the Nick A but substitutes in a 37mm cannon with accuracy 6 in place of 2x12.7mm MGs.
That 37mm cannon might not hit very often, but anything it does hit should stay hit.
I figure allied 4E bombers are a big target, and I have no idea what formula the 6 accuracy plugs into, but 12.7mm MGs don’t shoot down many bombers.
Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

There’s not a lot of love for the Nick C in here!
In scenario 1, It has the same 20mm centre mount cannon as the Nick A but substitutes in a 37mm cannon with accuracy 6 in place of 2x12.7mm MGs.
That 37mm cannon might not hit very often, but anything it does hit should stay hit.
I figure allied 4E bombers are a big target, and I have no idea what formula the 6 accuracy plugs into, but 12.7mm MGs don’t shoot down many bombers.


I know it's a tempting plane but the problem is that the gun doesn't hit much.

I generally approach anti-bomber missions in this way: many crappy planes just to disrupt enemy's formation, some good nti-bomber fighters such as Nick-I to damage enemy's planes and a lot of AA to shot them down/damage further.

Generally, rather than shooting them down, I want to disrupt enemy's bombing run as much as possible so that I limit the damages on the land.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by Miller »

Most late war IJN DD upgrades give a bit extra AA and/or Radar at the expense of reload ammo for torpedo tubes, not worth it imo.
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RE: When an upgrade is not an upgrade

Post by inqistor »

ORIGINAL: Miller

Most late war IJN DD upgrades give a bit extra AA and/or Radar at the expense of reload ammo for torpedo tubes, not worth it imo.
Late war? Kamikaze, and Minekaze classes lose half of their torpedo tubes in first upgrade during 2/42!
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