Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Moderator: AlvaroSousa
- PanzerMike
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Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
For those of you who do not frequent the Beta forum, please read this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4768155
Whether or not Turkey is viable as a strategic option for the Axis depends for a large part on the infrastructure. I have been doing some research for a mod I am making. Some of the information I could find is in the thread.
Main thing is, that I think a rail line between Turkey and the USSR and Turkey and Iraq is probably the way to go, based on what I can find.
The hard thing is, a rail line being there is one thing, enough rolling stock and whether or not it can effectively operate in winter conditions for example are also a factor. Was the rail line single or double? Questions, questions.
And how to model the difference in rail gauges? Especially the rail line from Ankara to Tblisi (USSR) is a good example. The gauge changed (picture in the beta forum thread), necessitating a transfer. One could represent this by interrupting the rail line with a road hex. But is this warranted? A Warplan turn is 2 weeks, isn't that enough time to incorporate switching trains here and there? Hard to say.
Also, if the Axis would have gone for Turkey it is likely they would have taken additional measures to optimize the rail lines with extra manpower, etc. to squeeze the maximum out of it. I know they did this in other places as well, so why not here.
Long story short, any info on Turkey is welcome. And what do you think?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4768155
Whether or not Turkey is viable as a strategic option for the Axis depends for a large part on the infrastructure. I have been doing some research for a mod I am making. Some of the information I could find is in the thread.
Main thing is, that I think a rail line between Turkey and the USSR and Turkey and Iraq is probably the way to go, based on what I can find.
The hard thing is, a rail line being there is one thing, enough rolling stock and whether or not it can effectively operate in winter conditions for example are also a factor. Was the rail line single or double? Questions, questions.
And how to model the difference in rail gauges? Especially the rail line from Ankara to Tblisi (USSR) is a good example. The gauge changed (picture in the beta forum thread), necessitating a transfer. One could represent this by interrupting the rail line with a road hex. But is this warranted? A Warplan turn is 2 weeks, isn't that enough time to incorporate switching trains here and there? Hard to say.
Also, if the Axis would have gone for Turkey it is likely they would have taken additional measures to optimize the rail lines with extra manpower, etc. to squeeze the maximum out of it. I know they did this in other places as well, so why not here.
Long story short, any info on Turkey is welcome. And what do you think?
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
If you have a rail line across Istanbul and up to the Soviet border/down to Iraq than invasion Turkey is ON for Axis and as we saw in the earlier versions it can lead to a short game. Capture either Soviet or Middle East oil fields and Axis have a massive boost to combat power. Oil = Panzers + Bombers = Victory.
Without a continuous rail line and invasion Turkey is likely OFF, have not seen anyone try it successfully yet.
Warplan logistics being what they are it is a binary choice, am not sure how you can implement anything more nuanced.
Without a continuous rail line and invasion Turkey is likely OFF, have not seen anyone try it successfully yet.
Warplan logistics being what they are it is a binary choice, am not sure how you can implement anything more nuanced.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
- PanzerMike
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RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
There will not be a continuous line from Berlin to Baghdad. The line will be interrupted at Istanbul. Like it is now in Vanilla. The need to use a ferry at Istanbul is represented by a road hex.
There was however an uninterrupted line between Istanbul and Baghdad. Alvaro is going to introduce that in the next beta.
Also a rail line running from Istanbul to the Caucasus was there. It used different gauges at some points however so this handicapped it. Of course the gauge issues are also represented by the scorched earth thing for Turkey (same as for the USSR). So what to do with that one?
But having no experience as the Axis in Turkey, it seems that THE most important factor whether to attack Turkey is the existence of a continuous rail line from Berlin crossing the Bosporus at Istanbul into Turkey? It isn't there in the stock scenario (anymore) and for good reason (it did not exist historically). Is that THE killing blow for a Turkey strategy?
There was however an uninterrupted line between Istanbul and Baghdad. Alvaro is going to introduce that in the next beta.
Also a rail line running from Istanbul to the Caucasus was there. It used different gauges at some points however so this handicapped it. Of course the gauge issues are also represented by the scorched earth thing for Turkey (same as for the USSR). So what to do with that one?
But having no experience as the Axis in Turkey, it seems that THE most important factor whether to attack Turkey is the existence of a continuous rail line from Berlin crossing the Bosporus at Istanbul into Turkey? It isn't there in the stock scenario (anymore) and for good reason (it did not exist historically). Is that THE killing blow for a Turkey strategy?
- Hoyt Burrass
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RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
In my opinion, there was just not enough rolling stock and other logistical infrastructure to support the kind of massive drive of troops that Axis players will push across the Bosporus to clear the Middle East. I think the current vanilla model that breaks the rail line at Ankara (which, as you mention, did not exist) and then has Turkey as a scorched earth country may do enough to limit the Axis push to a reasonable level. I don't think it was ever a viable strategy in reality because it would have caused more problems than it solved. I did some digging that I provided to Alvaro early on...I'm sure you've run across the same internet resources that I found...I can dig up the links and provide what I found if you wish...let me know.
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- AlvaroSousa
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RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
The Eastern rail lines in Turkey were terrible. Thus why they are roads. I did my own research and followed what SC3 did for rail lines. I added the one Mike mentioned in the next Beta. I must have missed it on the SC3 map because it is there.
Sometimes in games you need a balance of systems to make the game balanced. In WarPlan 2 I might introduced reduced rail lines. Acts like a rail for map level supply but is limited like a port for stockpile.
Sometimes in games you need a balance of systems to make the game balanced. In WarPlan 2 I might introduced reduced rail lines. Acts like a rail for map level supply but is limited like a port for stockpile.
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- PanzerMike
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RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Reduced rail lines would be a great addition. No longer a binary issue that way. But to be honest, I think that Warplan Europe would benefit from that concept much more than Pacific...
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
In WarPlan 2 I might introduced reduced rail lines. Acts like a rail for map level supply but is limited like a port for stockpile.
Maybe consider roads being able to do this, to augment the rail lines for limited supply and perhaps limited rail moves?
Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
I think so. In the game you either have rail supply or port supply. To support a strong force with port supply you need big ports close to the front line. I just don't see how that works for Axis to attack through Turkey. It also makes it difficult for the Allies to attack through Turkey. Once one side declares war on Turkey the other side has a major supply advantage in the area.But having no experience as the Axis in Turkey, it seems that THE most important factor whether to attack Turkey is the existence of a continuous rail line from Berlin crossing the Bosporus at Istanbul into Turkey? It isn't there in the stock scenario (anymore) and for good reason (it did not exist historically). Is that THE killing blow for a Turkey strategy?
With the earlier version Axis could advance down through Turkey and have full rail supply to attack both Russia and the Middle East.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
- PanzerMike
- Posts: 1174
- Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:40 am
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
How about this:
- No Istanbul continuous rail line (same as vanilla)
- A continuous rail line from Istanbul to Baghdad (soon to be vanilla)
- An interrupted rail line to the Caucasus (at Erzurum the rail gauge changed to the Russian gauge)
- No Istanbul continuous rail line (same as vanilla)
- A continuous rail line from Istanbul to Baghdad (soon to be vanilla)
- An interrupted rail line to the Caucasus (at Erzurum the rail gauge changed to the Russian gauge)
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Why not consider that if the Axis decided on a Turkey strategy they may have upgraded or even extended the rail net. No more fantastical than German Amphibious Pz Corp.
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
yes add and upgrade railway feature! that you need to pay for per hex. Turkey as it stands is of little use to any side.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
The game has lost me. I am moving on.
- PanzerMike
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RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Still researching Turkeys infrastructure and found some great new information, that makes me add a few stretches of road.ORIGINAL: tigercub
yes add and upgrade railway feature! that you need to pay for per hex. Turkey as it stands is of little use to any side.
Concerning improvement of the rail network, there is no way that a rail bridge could be built across the Bosporus at Istanbul. Maybe what is viable, is making the rail line from Erzurum to the Soviet frontier a continuous line. It would simulate a great effort to transform the line to the same gauge as used between Istanbul-Ankara-Erzurum.
In my mod I introduced a road hex next to Erzurum to interrupt the rail line to the Soviet frontier to simulate the gauge change. By event that hex could be changed to rail (much like the two road hexes next to Tabriz in Vanilla).
- PanzerMike
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RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
These events would transform the rail line:
//Railroad at Erzurum (Turkey) is improved if Turkey joins the Axis
$ChangeLogistics
if_Date=9/1/1939
if_Country=53
if_Alliance=Axis
// Axis controls the Erzurum - Kars rail line
xyControl=207,30,Axis
xyControl=208,31,Axis
xyControl=209,31,Axis
xyControl=210,32,Axis
xyControl=211,32,Axis
xyControl=211,33,Axis
xyControl=212,34,Axis
xyControl=213,34,Axis
lifespan=tillTrigger
actionCountry=53
//change road to rail
xyArea=207,30,33
addReportTo=All
text=Turkey (with German assistance) converts the Erzurum - Kars rail line to the same gauge as the rest of the Turkish line. It can now be used as a continuous rail connection from Istanbul all the way to the frontier with the Soviet Union.
$End
//Railroad at Erzurum (Turkey) is improved, if Turkey has surrendered to the Germans
$ChangeLogistics
if_Date=9/1/1939
// If Turkey has surrendered
if_Country=53
if_Surrender=true
// Axis controls the Erzurum - Kars rail line
xyControl=207,30,Axis
xyControl=208,31,Axis
xyControl=209,31,Axis
xyControl=210,32,Axis
xyControl=211,32,Axis
xyControl=211,33,Axis
xyControl=212,34,Axis
xyControl=213,34,Axis
lifespan=tillTrigger
actionCountry=6
//change road to rail
xyArea=207,30,33
addReportTo=All
text=Germany converts the Erzurum - Kars rail line to the same gauge as the rest of the Turkish line. It can now be used as a continuous rail connection from Istanbul all the way to the frontier with the Soviet Union.
$End
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
NO ... NO ... NNNNOOOOOO!!!
There most certainly WAS NOT a continuous RR line from Constantinople to Baghdad.
There had been a line* until the end of WW1 ... at which point, or soon thereafter in the early 1920's, the British ...
* TORE UP *ALL* THE RAILS
* Removed or burnt *ALL* the sleepers
* Destroyed ALL the infrastructure (watering points, coaling points, maintenance depots etc.
THERE WAS NO RR line between the Turkish Border and Baghdad.
(* Note: The 'line' such as it was was SINGLE TRACKED and of limited capacity even for a single tracked line ... lots of steep grades and low capacity bridges etc.)
This was extensively researched and debunked about 15 years ago on soc.history.what-if.
To add to the woes of the 'Turkish Solution' ... the Turkish RR DID NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT rolling stock or locomotives to run the lines they actually did have at full capacity ... and the Germans didn't have the spare industrial capacity to build enough key RR stock for themselves, let alone for the Turks.
Phil McGregor
There most certainly WAS NOT a continuous RR line from Constantinople to Baghdad.
There had been a line* until the end of WW1 ... at which point, or soon thereafter in the early 1920's, the British ...
* TORE UP *ALL* THE RAILS
* Removed or burnt *ALL* the sleepers
* Destroyed ALL the infrastructure (watering points, coaling points, maintenance depots etc.
THERE WAS NO RR line between the Turkish Border and Baghdad.
(* Note: The 'line' such as it was was SINGLE TRACKED and of limited capacity even for a single tracked line ... lots of steep grades and low capacity bridges etc.)
This was extensively researched and debunked about 15 years ago on soc.history.what-if.
To add to the woes of the 'Turkish Solution' ... the Turkish RR DID NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT rolling stock or locomotives to run the lines they actually did have at full capacity ... and the Germans didn't have the spare industrial capacity to build enough key RR stock for themselves, let alone for the Turks.
Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Also note that the RR lines through Syria didn't effectively run north south, even though they're shown on the map, at least not from the Turkish border ... they ran east to the Iraqi border ... and were of such limited capacity that they effectively ended there and all freight and passengers had to transfer to the almost as limited capacity Iraqi RR.
The rest of the RR lines in Syria weren't always connected *effectively* even if they ran to the same places - they were commercial lines running to Mines etc. and not intended to be 'through' lines.
The best way to represent the limited capacity of the Syrian RR net is to convert it all to roads. Ditto the mostly mythical Palestinian Mandate RR lines ...
Phil McGregor
The rest of the RR lines in Syria weren't always connected *effectively* even if they ran to the same places - they were commercial lines running to Mines etc. and not intended to be 'through' lines.
The best way to represent the limited capacity of the Syrian RR net is to convert it all to roads. Ditto the mostly mythical Palestinian Mandate RR lines ...
Phil McGregor
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au
- PanzerMike
- Posts: 1174
- Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:40 am
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Interesting!
I found this (small piece, rest behind a paywal) in an English newspaper or magazine of 1940:
on the night of July 17, 1940, the first through passenger train for Istanbul steamed out of Baghdad, the conclusion was at last written to one of the most dramatic of the stories of diplomatic and financial rivalry that have marked the last half century of European power politics. The Berlin-to-Baghdad Railway had now become a reality -- though not, as originally intended, under the aegis of Germany. Constructed primarily for peaceful commerce, the line nevertheless is of high military importance, and its completion at this moment is significant.
Through passengers from Europe to points on the Baghdad Railway must transfer at Istanbul by ferry across the Bosphorus to Haydar Pasha, while at Baghdad they must change again -- from the standard-gauge (4′ 8½″) line to the Baghdad-Basra metre-gauge (3′ 3
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... ghdad-date
My quote ends rather abruptly; the rest of it is behind a paywall.
But this suggest there was indeed a connection between Baghdad and Istanbul in July 1940.
Do you have a link to your sources?
Again, very interesting. You learn every day.
Ow, this is the guy that wrote article on the Baghdad - Berlin railroad:
PHILIP W. IRELAND
Deputy Chief of Mission
Baghdad (1951-1955)
Philip W. Ireland was born in Iowa in 1904. He graduated from Oxford University with a B.A. in 1933 and a M.A. in 1937. He received a Ph.D. from the
London School of Economics in 1936. Before joining the Foreign Service, he was a professor at the American University in Beirut and the University of Chicago.
His career included posts in Egypt, Iraq, Greece, and Syria.
I found this (small piece, rest behind a paywal) in an English newspaper or magazine of 1940:
on the night of July 17, 1940, the first through passenger train for Istanbul steamed out of Baghdad, the conclusion was at last written to one of the most dramatic of the stories of diplomatic and financial rivalry that have marked the last half century of European power politics. The Berlin-to-Baghdad Railway had now become a reality -- though not, as originally intended, under the aegis of Germany. Constructed primarily for peaceful commerce, the line nevertheless is of high military importance, and its completion at this moment is significant.
Through passengers from Europe to points on the Baghdad Railway must transfer at Istanbul by ferry across the Bosphorus to Haydar Pasha, while at Baghdad they must change again -- from the standard-gauge (4′ 8½″) line to the Baghdad-Basra metre-gauge (3′ 3
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... ghdad-date
My quote ends rather abruptly; the rest of it is behind a paywall.
But this suggest there was indeed a connection between Baghdad and Istanbul in July 1940.
Do you have a link to your sources?
Again, very interesting. You learn every day.
Ow, this is the guy that wrote article on the Baghdad - Berlin railroad:
PHILIP W. IRELAND
Deputy Chief of Mission
Baghdad (1951-1955)
Philip W. Ireland was born in Iowa in 1904. He graduated from Oxford University with a B.A. in 1933 and a M.A. in 1937. He received a Ph.D. from the
London School of Economics in 1936. Before joining the Foreign Service, he was a professor at the American University in Beirut and the University of Chicago.
His career included posts in Egypt, Iraq, Greece, and Syria.
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
You can try the archives for soc.history.what-if (and good luck with that!).
As I understand it, the only route that existed was from Istanbul, Turkey, to Aleppo, Syria (I am not sure from memory, but you EITHER had to change trains at the border with Syria OR in Aleppo), thence by Syrian RR (well, actually by French Chemins de Fer dde Cilicie Nord-Syria as the tracks ran for most of the route, quite literally, just inside the Turkish border with Syria, to the Iraqi border where you had to change to a motor coach to Kirkuk and thence by meter gauge Iraqi RR to Baghdad from 1930-1940.
After 1940 there was a connection between the Syrian Border and Kirkuk (still meter gauge until 1965).
The newspaper report is referring to this service ... run by the Societie International des Wagons Lits (i.e. passenger and limited freight ... the famous 'Orient Express' company). There were evidently 3-4 services a week from Istanbul to Aleppo then one a week from Aleppo to the Iraqi border to 1940 when, as far as I can tell, it remained at one per week.
The problem was the changeovers were required partly because of gauge change, partly because of different rolling stock requirements for the three nations involved, and partly since none of those nations had enough rolling stock or locomotives even for the limited services they were already running).
Maps that show connections running direct through central Anatolia to northern Iraq are bogus for WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin%E2 ... ad_railway
Phil McGregor
Phil
As I understand it, the only route that existed was from Istanbul, Turkey, to Aleppo, Syria (I am not sure from memory, but you EITHER had to change trains at the border with Syria OR in Aleppo), thence by Syrian RR (well, actually by French Chemins de Fer dde Cilicie Nord-Syria as the tracks ran for most of the route, quite literally, just inside the Turkish border with Syria, to the Iraqi border where you had to change to a motor coach to Kirkuk and thence by meter gauge Iraqi RR to Baghdad from 1930-1940.
After 1940 there was a connection between the Syrian Border and Kirkuk (still meter gauge until 1965).
The newspaper report is referring to this service ... run by the Societie International des Wagons Lits (i.e. passenger and limited freight ... the famous 'Orient Express' company). There were evidently 3-4 services a week from Istanbul to Aleppo then one a week from Aleppo to the Iraqi border to 1940 when, as far as I can tell, it remained at one per week.
The problem was the changeovers were required partly because of gauge change, partly because of different rolling stock requirements for the three nations involved, and partly since none of those nations had enough rolling stock or locomotives even for the limited services they were already running).
Maps that show connections running direct through central Anatolia to northern Iraq are bogus for WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin%E2 ... ad_railway
Phil McGregor
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au
- PanzerMike
- Posts: 1174
- Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:40 am
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
Thank you for sharing what you know on the matter.
RE: Turkey, viable option for the Axis?
There are maps in this article, not sure how accurate it is.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... q's_Rivers
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-wee ... _b_6871470
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... hdad-3.htm
Lots of interesting reads. Wow. Who knew. Thanks guys.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... q's_Rivers
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-wee ... _b_6871470
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... hdad-3.htm
Lots of interesting reads. Wow. Who knew. Thanks guys.