Italy surrenders to paras !

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MVokt
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by MVokt »

I'm just not only implying that a paratrooper unit shouldn't be allowed to directly jump into a city but also I'm referring to the fact that those units,that way, are not being used in a sensible way since they are dropped completely isolated and not linked to any land offensive as it occurred in D-Day or in Arhem.



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Flaviusx
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by Flaviusx »

This is easily prevented. A single division in Turin and Milan will stop it. I don't think it is worth making a bunch of complicated rules to address it.

The bottom line is this: if the Allies advance sufficiently in the Med, there will come a point in the game when Germans are going to have to help Italy to stay in the war and make a major commitment to holding on to the peninsula and even lending resources to the Italian economy so they can build the much despised Italian trash infantry which, point in fact, can stop these shenanigans.



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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by AlvaroSousa »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is easily prevented. A single division in Turin and Milan will stop it. I don't think it is worth making a bunch of complicated rules to address it.

The bottom line is this: if the Allies advance sufficiently in the Med, there will come a point in the game when Germans are going to have to help Italy to stay in the war and make a major commitment to holding on to the peninsula and even lending resources to the Italian economy so they can build the much despised Italian trash infantry which, point in fact, can stop these shenanigans.




You should have seen my defense of Italy in my last WIF game.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by AlvaroSousa »

Question was the fighter in range really weak and destroyed or in good shape? Air units don't intercept if they are really weak.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by Rasputitsa »

This effect happens in other games and realistically cities should be garrisoned in war time, not because they can easily be attacked by para-troops, but to maintain control against events like the Warsaw uprising.

The game system is unrealistic, but it is forcing a realistic need to garrison cities.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by MagicMissile »

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Question was the fighter in range really weak and destroyed or in good shape? Air units don't intercept if they are really weak.
I don’t know the status of the fighter but I made 4 stratbomb missions and 4 airbase attacks on the unit itself before the drop was made.
I agree no special rules needed as I wrote above a Hungarian/Romanian division in each city will do it.
/MM
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battlevonwar
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by battlevonwar »

Would a Division full entrenched(has to be German) be able to to prevent the Para from taking the city? Think so
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is easily prevented. A single division in Turin and Milan will stop it. I don't think it is worth making a bunch of complicated rules to address it.

The bottom line is this: if the Allies advance sufficiently in the Med, there will come a point in the game when Germans are going to have to help Italy to stay in the war and make a major commitment to holding on to the peninsula and even lending resources to the Italian economy so they can build the much despised Italian trash infantry which, point in fact, can stop these shenanigans.



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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by AlvaroSousa »

of course. Para's arent that strong
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by Flaviusx »

The only way a sole paratrooper could take those cities defended by a single German division (or a trash Italian infantry corps) is if it was backed by a ton of airpower. I don't see that kind of airpower here, or even the basing for it.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by Emporer »

Hi

This is the a sitiation which I have difficulties in every wargames where paras jumping around the map soley by them self. Paratroopers was allmost allwas used as part of a ground offensives to support it. So to solve this issue with paras, they should only be used on hexes adjacent to own ground forces.

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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by PanzerMike »

ORIGINAL: Emporer
This is the a sitiation which I have difficulties in every wargames where paras jumping around the map soley by them self. Paratroopers was allmost allwas used as part of a ground offensives to support it. So to solve this issue with paras, they should only be used on hexes adjacent to own ground forces.
There were exceptions ofcourse. Think Crete for example. But even Market Garden on Warplan scale means the furthest paradrop would have been two or three hexes away from the nearest land unit. So allowing adjacent hexes for paradrop only, would be too restrictive IMHO.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by Emporer »

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike

ORIGINAL: Emporer
This is the a sitiation which I have difficulties in every wargames where paras jumping around the map soley by them self. Paratroopers was allmost allwas used as part of a ground offensives to support it. So to solve this issue with paras, they should only be used on hexes adjacent to own ground forces.
There were exceptions ofcourse. Think Crete for example. But even Market Garden on Warplan scale means the furthest paradrop would have been two or three hexes away from the nearest land unit. So allowing adjacent hexes for paradrop only, would be too restrictive IMHO.
Hi

Market Garden is a perfect example how the use of paratroopers was used. In the same time the 1st para is dropped next to your ground unit this creates an incitament to drop the next one 2 hexes from the ground unit because when a paratroopers lands it became a ground unit. This means if you have 3 paras you should be able to drop last paratrooper unit 3 hexes away from your ground units.
To limit this is far more realistic use of paras also and get rid of this unrealstic use of paratroopers.
Even at Crete the paras was not the only troops that where to attack the island, there was also a sea invasion with 2.300 soldier ongoing but it was driven back due to naval forces from the allied in the area, (say in gameterms it was an interception).
So i cant see any problem with this, and this is by far better solution than having paras dropping everywhere.

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PanzerMike
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by PanzerMike »

If the hex next to your ground unit is occupied by an enemy unit, you can't drop a parachute division there. So the carpet can't be rolled out.

British XXX corps had opposing enemy units. So no paradrops there. No paradrops there, means no paradrop at Nijmegen and Arnhem.

In order for what you propose to work, the game should allow paradrops on enemy units.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by freeboy »

Italians in an ai game as axis surrendered to a rougue brit unit fleeing france...
Allies where bottled up in North africa and southern france. Italy was whole and surrendered when unit took one northern city..
hummm maybe the surrendering rules need to be addressed ?
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by rowdied1 »

I have played 3 games now and each time US enters war Italy sues for peace. Makes no difference what I do they always surrender.
Why?
I think there is a bug somewhere as the games before 1.05 patch I could make it to 1943 at least.
I cannot be the only one to experience this, am I?
Makes it real hard to like the game now
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by Meteor2 »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Italians in an ai game as axis surrendered to a rougue brit unit fleeing france...
Allies where bottled up in North africa and southern france. Italy was whole and surrendered when unit took one northern city..
hummm maybe the surrendering rules need to be addressed ?

If that's the case (and I have no doubts, that you are right), something has to be done by Alvaro.
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by AlvaroSousa »

What was the state of Italy at the time? Were they clear of enemy troops? Were they invaded by the Brits?
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by rowdied1 »

3 different states.

1st time, partisans from Switzerland occupied Milan.

2nd time, US entered war and about 2 turns later they surrendered. at the time, Italy controlled all of the Africa from the Pacific right up to Alexandra. They controlled Crete and Malta. Germans controlled all of mainland Europe up and not yet invaded England or Russia. this happened into 1942 around spring time. Italy had over 500 production points and over 250 oil reserves. I was preparing to take Alexandra and also invade Russia.

3rd time was just this week. Germany invaded England and about to take it over, Italy has Africa from Pacific to Egypt. morale was at 48 at end of November when US declared war. Oil reserves at zero and 440 stockpiled production. Morale went past breaking point to 56. Next turn they will surrender with no reason to. No-one has invaded Italy, I have almost all major cities garrisoned.

Up to date with 1.05.

This never happened before until late in the war after summer of 44 around there they surrendered.

thanks!!
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by AlvaroSousa »

What was Italy's morale and morale surrender number when it happened?
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

Post by rowdied1 »

The morale before surrender was 48 and the breaking point was 33. After US declared war about 2 turns later the breaking point was 56 but morale was still 48. They then sued for peace.
thanks!
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