2x3+ Team Side Game - BOTH SIDES

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2x3+ 018-021 Axis Finns

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Finns

The Finns have crossed the Svir river and now are face to face with Soviet forces. They are now so far from rail that they are isolated. And HQs are not being placed optimally to help. For now they have stocks of supplies and ammo - but how long will that last?
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The lost turns of not repairing rail in Karelia are coming back to haunt us.
Axis Supreme Commander
An old problem we all get into and just had to suck it up anyway. But here we have space to give and could use it to move units back out of isolation. Alternatively just hold the front with withdrawing units, we do not care about their morale anyway. Move back the important units to supply?
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2x3+ 018-021 Axis Rybinsk

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Rybinsk

Around Rybinsk all other Germans have been moved out of isolation bar 1 division broken into regiments to not give too much ground. If the enemy does move down in snow we can push east and get ground back.
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The Hiatus of Crackaces

Post by Crackaces »

One thing about turn 18 is that Crackaces takes a hiatus from the game. You cannot blame North or the Air on me until I return later in the role of center [8D] I really enjoy the social aspect of a team game and learning about the game from different perspectives. Not everybody shares my values, but I hope I respect the values of others and they respect my values. Things between turn 18 and later get strange .. I will let others comment ..However, for the gamer thinking about team play there is a very very important lesson. This game takes a tremendous investment of time. There will be times where the sides might need to work out a problem. The problem might be very serious, like suspected reloading, which can be worked out by each side cooperating. Things happen because somebody misunderstands of how the game works. For example, marsh might be frozen but you cannot operate an airbase from a frozen marsh. "Hey guys, you can't fly from the marsh .. that is why you are losing so many aircraft .." The ability for the players to discuss and exchange thoughts is critical for the success of a team game. Once that breaks down .. the game will break down ..

A little background, there has been plenty of discussions on exploits. Much like terrorism, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. One gamer's brilliant discovery of a software algorithm is another gamer's exploit. From my perspective, I think it is important to get these understandings in the open, discuss them, and decide the impact on the game . I do not think it is a question of unfair vs fair, but if you take a look at the date 8MP started and the date it ended -- the game takes quite an investment of time. If a certain game behavior is going to cause problems it is better to discuss than wait for a disaster later.

The subject of this discord discussion is determined to be an exploit and fixed by Morvel. However, as you read, the discussion goes very badly. In my opinion, for all sides involved.

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RE: The Hiatus of Crackaces

Post by Crackaces »

Morvel makes a simple change "+1 MP" for every attack from a hex. Problem solved. I will start posting for center when the AAR reaches around turn 40 or so .. otherwise ..
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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RE: The Hiatus of Crackaces

Post by Telemecus »

I had always assumed it would be seen as having misunderstood pretty soon afterwards.

And it did feel terrible for everyone else in the game to know someone was pushed out of two team games for no good reason.

We promised next time there was a new team game for experienced players Crackaces would have absolute priority to be in it.
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2x3+ 018-021 Axis Mius

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Mius

And on turn 19 with snow forecast again next turn XXXXVIIIPz Corps is ready
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RE: 2x3+ 018-021 Axis Mius

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Mius

On turn 20 outflanks the defenders of Rostov on the Mius
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Axis South Commander
I could have taken Rostov [with] stukas
Axis Supreme Commander
they lost Moscow, Tambov, Leningrad but boy did they mass up on the defence of Rostov!
Axis South Commander
I tried to position for rostov
The thing is i am dealing with a ton of soviets in rotov
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RE: 2x3+ 018-021 Axis Mius

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Mius
Axis South Commander
If he doesn't withdraw in the Rostov area I'll at least be able to grab a few more divisions
HQ BU for 4 divisions this far ahead a waste of effort?...I'll use the points ... as it will give me some spare fuel for 2nd turn of snow
I could fly in some more fuel, but ...

And so by turn 21 XXXXVIIIPz is building up again for another offensive in snow.

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Axis Supreme Commander
North and centre are not going to be in offensive so effectively can take what they have not used.
You do have lots of transports too to use they are actually good in v1.11.02, not like before when they went into reserve after use
Axis South Commander
I'll restock some infantry then
In snow I'll get some ground to give away there
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2x3+ 018-021 Axis Wintering

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Wintering

The exodus of motorised and best units to garrisons continues. Only 3 motorised divisions planed for garrison duty are left to be railed. Almost all Southern Axis alied combat units are now out of garrisons and at the front or on their way to it. All Finnish units that had been garrisons have had a replacement.

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Questions were asked about this -
Why are you breaking everything down?
Doesn't it make things harder to reorg once blizzard is over?
I assume every break down gives you a couple more SEC regis somewhere?
Axis Supreme Commanders
yes - during blizzard I will be using rail cap slowly to bring them close together again
so should be more organised well before then
but yes at the moment they are breaking down to cover as many garrisons as possible as fast as possible for now
if it goes to plan all motorised are back close to front with good units for good weather
mistime it and ToEs start going up
so rail cap moves less
and some units are not back in time for good weather
but the second there is some spare rail cap again (december?)
I will be using it to swap between garrisons to bring units at least closer together

Indeed in this game unlike other games I have played the whole wintering swap around has happened so early and so quickly that during a snow turn later we even had surplus rail capacity left at the end of the turn.
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RE: 2x3+ 018-021 Axis Mountain Training

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Mountain Training

Why is 101st light inf in Kursk?
Get it to the pocket and get it training!

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2x3+ 018-021 Axis OOB and Leaders

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis OOB and Leaders

With the offensive largely over there is no more reason to spend points on HQBUs (note: game started on v1.11.00 before their cost in points was raised a lot)
Now we are in full swing spending points to get rid of command penalties and to get better leaders instead.

Getting rid of command penalties gives you most bangs for your buck of point spend. And we intend to first do what has the best return on our point spend first. But as we intend to revamp our leadership anyway, it is worth looking to see if we can alter their sequence to lower the overall costs.

First Principles - OOB

The optimum OOB is 1 Army Group = 4 Armies, and 1 Army =3 corps of 4 divisions or 4 corps of 3 divisions
If any HQ has any more than these HQs in it then either they will be underused or the parent command will be over the command limit
The German army does not have enough HQs for all Germans, let alone for divisions broken down to regiments or forts too, so no HQ can be left with a lot of command space.
And given that there are not enough HQs for all Germans, some will have to be in corps HQs independent of army or army group control, or in allied HQs.
Garrisons which do not need an HQ will be directly assigned to OKH.

In practical terms this means we will move the most northernly infantry army of AGC into AGN so they each have four armies (RHGs are left empty of combat units). And corps from 4th and 9th army which start the game with too many corps, and get even more, are transfered to 2nd army which has too few and the Panzer Groups for XXXX Panzer Corps. Two German corps HQs are also transfered into the Finnish armies. Army Group South is horribly overloaded but that costs a lot of points to sort out whereas we can sort it out for free when the army groups splits - so we will wait for that first.

First Principles - Leaders
First choice should be for Panzer Corps to get leaders with the highest weighted average of Mec/Adm/Init
Second choice should be for Infantry Corps to get leaders with the highest weighted average of Inf/Adm/Init
Third choice should be for OKH to get leader with the highest morale
Fourth choice should be for Army Groups to get leaders with the highest morale
Fifth choice should be for Panzer Groups or Armies to get leaders with the highest morale, and use the highest weighted average of Mec/Adm/Init as a tie breaker
Sixth choice should be for Infantry Armies to get leaders with the highest morale, and use the highest weighted average of Inf/Adm/Init as a tie breaker

In practical terms that would have meant the following choice of leaders for corps at the end of turn 18
Image

Higher up von Kluge would stay at OKH, but would be joined by Kesselring, von Reichenau and Jodl in army group commands, and a whole batch of new army and panzer group leaders.

Altering the Sequence to Lower the cost
On its own this will cost many hundreds of points and would probably need years to do. But paying attention to the political rankings of leaders, and comparing them to who they would be replaced by pays dividends.

i) Before replacing a leader check if the replacement for their superior will have a greater or lesser political score. The higher the political rating of a superior the cheaper it is to replace a leader. So if they are going to get a greater political ratings superior, that leader should not be changed until their superior is. Or conversely should be changed before their superior is. An explanation of this can also be found here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4698265
ii) Similarly for reassigning HQs (and even units) wait if the changes in political ratings make it cheaper.

Added to this we also used the method of appointing an existing leader to another position to a get the occasional free auto promote. This did mean we lost a few first choice leaders to rankings loss, but overall had much better leaders much sooner than if we had waited for their normal promotion.

Thus these turns began a multi-dimensional puzzle of changing leaders and the OOB in a sequence to minimise cost co-ordinated across several team members.
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RE: 2x3+ 018-021 Axis OOB and Leaders

Post by Telemecus »

T018 Axis Leadership

The start of our big revamp of leadership commenced this turn with 4 corps command appointments. They were all in 4th and 6th armies around the Voronezh pocket, so where we are most likely to need better leadership soon. We also got 3 highly desirable auto appointments to replace them for free!
I think E of Moscow will be fine without the best commanders
So may help if we put out A team elsewhere along the line

Attached is the spreadsheet used for managing leadership at turn 18
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2x3+ 018-021 Axis Strategic Bombing

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Axis Strategic Bombing

The Yak-1 factory at Tatischevo is still in escort range!
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2x3+ 018-021 Air Truce

Post by Telemecus »

T018-021 Air Truce

The latest patch to the program has removed both day and night missions as a setting, and it now means changing those settings can only be done to an airgroup that has flown no miles and will leave them with no more miles to fly. Program updates are supposed to be backwards compatible with the scenario data from old versions, so there is no reason in principle we cannot continue with airgroups already set to fly both on both sides. But some team players felt the right thing to do was switch all airgroups to either day or night - although an exception was made for transports and recon that can only operate on day missions anyway. So in effect an air war truce is declared and neither side will fly air missions while we make these changes this turn.
Axis South Commander
I won't fly transports without some escort
Axis Supreme Commander
Air force may be a bit disjointed next turn as not possible to do real rotations of the air force with the night day change
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2x3+ 018-021 Air

Post by Telemecus »

The casual reader should skip over this post. I made the final set of notes of suggestions at the request of our air commander who was taking them all in and becoming a master of the art in their own right. But sadly lost them at the end of these turns. However as I know some aficionados really like to research this level of detail these notes have been posted for them....

Extra notes given to the new air commander at their request.

Check for any autoswaps in the log and adjust replacement settings and upgrade settings for the airgroups with both the model it swapped to and the model it swapped from

Check for any arrivals
-You will have one air group withdrawing IIIJG 27: nothing needs to change as a result of this
-You will have one new air group arriving 10KG3(Croat), it will have a maximum size of 12 planes, be equipped with Do17Z-2 bombers, have experience only in the 60s and withdraws on Turn 81. Bad experience and withdrawing usually means swap it to a bad model, and turn off replacements and swaps. If there are 7 or more Ju86 in the pool swap it to that, otherwise Do17Z-2 is the worst and you can leave it with that. (There are ways to use it unusual maximum size of 12 at a later date though)

The Big issue will be MUD. It is still Ok to air transfer air groups and move forward bases on rails. But do we want to move forward a fueled up base from rails as we did in turn 17? I think we have to as we so short of good forward bases now. However we may want to send short range bombers to reserve and use the forward bases fuel and ammo just for fighters over the bad weather period combined with long range bombers from rails. The central Soviet weather zone however is forecast as snow, so we may particularly want to put forward bases there and prioritise Soviet targets in there.

On turn 29 we have the arrival of 6KG26 bomber group which will withdraw on turn 70. Because it leaves so soon we would want to swap it to our worst type of bomber as soon as possible. If not the Ju86 then this means Do17Z-2 - but we must have at least 21 Do17Z-2 in the pool. If there is any prospect of going under this number all Do17Z-2 airgroups must have replacements turned off. However we would like to get as close to this number as possible without going under.

Bf109E4-B: in the future any of these fighter bombers in the pool get converted to the much better Bf109E-7/U1 dive bomber. So we want airgroups of these swapped out of these aircraft and into other models of aircraft instead. We have two which are bomber trained and the options are
i) Swap to Me210 - although Me210 is most useful for a fighter trained group to be a long range fighter escort
ii) Swap to a fighter - not great for a bomber trained airgroup
iii) Swap to another fighter bomber like the FWs - but they are not in production yet
iv) Wait for the disbanding group to disband
v) Swap to a dive bomber - but we are very short of dive bombers for the groups of them we have already. And once swapped to a dive bomber they cannot be swapped back to a fighter bomber or fighter.

There are Bf109E-7/U1 in the pool and two airgroups (stabs) not withdrawing with replacements off - so may want to turn them on?

Our pools for Heinkel bombers are low - do we have enough for the airgroups we have or swap some to Ju88 or He111H-3, and if so by auto or manual?

When points allow consider swapping the swapping groups 1.(H)/41, 5.(H)/41 and 4.(H)/23 which withdraw to Fi156c and then to manual swap and no replace settings

When points allow consider swapping other HS126B-1 recon groups to other models. HS126B-1 recon get converted into dive bombers but other recon in the pool get exported.

We want our best Rumanian level bombers to have PZL, our second best He111H-3(R) and our worst Ju86(R) - is there a way to get there with autoswaps or else manual swaps? We have a zero pool for PZL bombers - should we still have three PZL bomber groups?

We have Fi156(R) in the pool and no Rumanian airgroups with it - while the other models have zero or few in the pool and the recon airgroups with them are short of recon. Can we swap and manual or auto?

We cannot use the Hungarian transport air group because all the bases are too far from rails. Should we have one closer to rails and use the transport group for supplies.

Very little time left for the Slovak air force - can we at least get them to die doing something rather than see them just leave. Should we leave one airbase empty all the time if we are running short of fuel on the other?

The north coast of the Azov sea is a great place for Rumanian staging bases - short range Rumanian bombers can then bomb industry in Crimea and West Caucasus.

We forgot to move Lft HQs - optimally they should be zero or one hex away from airbases, this usually means in the cluster on the rail line.

One airbase at 106,18 is very close to front and yet we only got it to detection level 3. So we would not know if it had any good targets.

Optimal would be to get at least one Finnish air base empty near front lines as staging base, one a bit back for fighters and one on rails for bombers.

Is there any way to maximise use of withdrawing airgroups first more?

Will there be a need for ground supply missions or a para drop on turn 18?

Can flak be assigned by air commander end of turn?

Will Italian FBs ever actually be used in an air mission?

Below are extra notes on things to consider for turn 19

IIJG51 is still on auto update - may be better to wait until the upgrade exists and then chose which airgroups to have auto upgrade?
Rumanian level bomber groups have longest range in least experienced groups - do the replacements need to be adjusted or swaps made (auto or manual?)
Rumanian tac/dive bombers - ideal is to have IAR 39 in our combat command groups and IAR37 in our home command groups - note another IAR37 airgroup arrives T38
Some home air command Hungarian recon has replacements on?
If you do assign either of the Bf109E4b airgroups on that map it may be best in the rear to fill airbases up with fuel only. We would rather see their airframes convert to dive bombers which we need.
We would want Fi156c and Fw189A recon pools to be kept low so that they are not exported

Image
(20 or more Fi156c in the pool will mean they get exported)

Slovaks were not used for bombing last turn and leave soon - so worth using up
Transports also need to be "kabuki danced" and even used to take isolated units out or isolation (losing morale) and into beachead status
Hungarian airbases are not close enough to allow use of their transports
Central zone is forecast to be snow - better place for missions/airbases

Issues worth considering for turn 20

Either the Slovaks have left or leave this turn - if latter use them up in any way possible
IIJG51 is still on auto update - may be better to set to manual and wait until the upgrade exists and then chose which airgroups to have auto upgrade?
Some Ju88 do not withdraw but have replacements off? e.g.IKG27,IIKG4?
Fi156c will export (if over 20 in pool?) - worth switching replace on some late withdrawing air groups or manually swapping some withdrawing bad recon groups to Fi156c
Fw189 will also start exporting soon (if over 20 in pool too I think?)
If possible make sure transports with large numbers of damaged/reserve go to National Reserve (or base with very high supply - probably 400+ per transport group) to get over the transport repair bug
Transports also need to be "kabuki danced" and even used to take isolated units out or isolation (losing morale) and into beachead status
There are not enough Potez dive bombers for two Rumanian dive bomber airgroups
Rumanian level bomber groups have longest range in least experienced groups - do the replacements need to be adjusted or swaps made (auto or manual?)
Rumanian tac/dive bombers - ideal is to have IAR 39 in our combat commmand groups and IAR37 in our home command groups - note another IAR37 airgroup arrives T38
57/60Rm Ftr needs to be air transfered to Rumanian airbase when wanted for missions
Remember airbases of other countries can be used for airtransfers, but not to fly missions out of
Some home air command Hungarian recon has replacements on?
If you do assign either of the Bf109E4b airgroups on that map it may be best in the rear to fill airbases up with fuel only. We would rather see their airframes convert to dive bombers which we need.
Hungarian airbases are not close enough to allow use of their transports
Central zone is snow (tbc?) - better place for missions/airbases?
T19 saw a lot of unopposed bombing of the Finns, and their air force out of range to intervene?
Soviet airfields in Crimea are in Stuka/Allied dive bomber range
Also worth considering reassigning more airbases to Lft2?

Out of 387 LW ready level bombers 276 are with FKVIII - so south probably needs more?

of 517 LW ready fighters FKVIII has 134 and FKII 72 - so perhaps more fighters need to go to centre?

One may have bombers with lack of escorts and the other fighters with not a lot of escorting to do

Also you have very few fighters in reserve - only two full airgroups at end. So anything needing air cover (transports, pockets etc) has to be either with those two or whatever you prep at start

you probably need to recon all airbases in bomber range to level 5 first before you can plan an airbase bombing campaign

Do need to bring Finnish fighters especially short range ones into battle - and use their bombers on those airbases

For kabuki dance need to also think about transports at end

Probably easiest to first kabuki dance in south, then air transfer any more bombers wanted in south and then kabuki dance north

Most forward bases in centre have minimal fuel/ammo - not enough for large collections of fighter groups - if you give them each only 1 or 2 fighter groups as a result and none go back it will get worse as none will have fuel added on for next turn either. Something like 11LW will be needed forward for centre
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2x3+ 018-021 Team

Post by Telemecus »

Lictuel as first on the reserves list joined the Axis team and asked to be our Centre commander
Telemecus
Interesting fact - my 2x3+ email folder where I have archived all emails and not looked at them until now has 1,223 emails!

And it has ballooned even more since!

This is not from being the Axis Supreme Commander but from being a team manager. Alone every time someone new joins the team I have to message every other player to let them know and give them a chance to raise any objections before then sending everyone another email to confirm they have joined and list out the team lineups as they were. This made absolutely sure everyone knew who they were playing with at all times. And that all had agreed. This rule goes all the way back to the 8MP team game to help the Soviet Supreme Commander who first posted for that team game to start to deal with trolling problems they had been affected by. Given that this had been done repeatedly for years everyone in the team games knew about this.
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2x3+ AAR

Post by Telemecus »

Originally I was not planning to write an AAR for this team game. I was happy writing one for the 8MP team game and had no idea that trolling in future was going to slow down this game so much. My Soviet counterpart though was taking the lead.
Soviet Supreme CommanderI wanted to start writing about them. If not, Il just have to use the soviets file only... You could always just give me the password and count on my honesty but Id understand you wouldn't want to do that :wink:

I put this to the Axis team who said no to giving the password.
Soviet Supreme Commander
I want to see Army Commanders. I need the names of the Corps Officers of everyone involved, all division names of those units and all battle that occurred ( the battle window ) If I want to be able to write a story about a certain units throughout the whole war, I need that division's commander, the names of each division and their battles window tab. I would need from it is all the pictures of their movements, battles, OOB, equipment lost. officers, etc etc. on every turn so that I can paint a picture of their movement and battles, their achievements, and sacrifice. To put a face on those counters.

Each month I could write about a month's worth of war.

So I thought with all the commanders reports exports I could give them would have all the data they needed.
Soviet Supreme Commander
What I see in data file is pretty confusing. What I would love to have handy with me while writing in pictures. I know youv been doing a lot but I just really need this. And picture of the division's position on each turn.

Sweet ! Yeah screenshot works for me

So I will have to screenshot everything! This was a huge amount of work in itself
Soviet Supreme Commander
If you guys had any official operations, I would like to have my hands on the objectives, results, on the bickering that happened if it did, on the difficulties you had.

Plus all the team files as well had to be organised for this.

So I had a huge workload of screenshotting and editing old files before uploading them to the dropbox the players shared so that the Soviet Supreme Commander could write the AAR they wanted.
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RE: 2x3+ AAR

Post by Beria »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I put this to the Axis team who said no to giving the password.

Which for the one who said that and then did exactly that is ironic.
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2x3+ 018-021 Soviet

Post by Beria »

T18-021 Soviet

Image
Screenshot at end of turn 21

Apart from moving into the space vacated by the Axis west of Lake Rybinsk and the Axis attacks in the central weather zone where there has been snow, little has changed on the front lines during mud.
Soviet South Commander
the enemy appears to want to attack Rostov, I will try to defend a Don Bridge head as best as possible, but Rostov has a level 3 fort, I sure it and the Marshes can hold easily.

Supreme leader, remember when we discussed that all 20% ToE rifle divisions east of the Volga and all future shell divisions should remains at 20%? ... its best to leaves these units East of the Volga and not waste rail capacity. I still need to evac the 15 armaments at Rostov just to be safe, its becoming clear manpower will be the Bottleneck, not armaments.

please leave me at least 50 000 rail capacity for next turn, so I can evac at least 10 armament points.
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Beria
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2x3+ 018-021 FBD at Moscow

Post by Beria »

T18-021 FBD at Moscow
Soviet South Commander
the tip of the arrow indicates the pop up hex
the other 3 FBD are all in the South.
the North is desperate for supply,
some Fins and Germans are even 100 MP from supply
yet they prioritize reaching the front to the west?
I think this means they are planning an attack
or at least
maybe a small push to gain more buffer space before Blizzard or some easy encirclements
other then the German mobile units in the Pocket at Voronezh, we have no Idea where there other 3 panzer groups are
you could be facing 2 panzer groups at worst.
I admit, I'm a bit paranoid just because of Gorky, if that falls its really game over. but I'm still confident you can protect it well before Blizzard.

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