Ship movement into battle

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BBfanboy
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

In this picture TF 218 is following the CV TF. What is TF 218, where is it, where was it at the start of this?
A Tf that is being followed may slow down to allow the following TF to catch up.
In the AAR he shows that three CV TFs left Tokyo Bay together. So the second TF followed the first but I don't know where the third one is or what it's instructions were. If it happened that the third one was to follow the first or second and the first one was to follow the third or second, the circular follow orders would confuse the AI routing for sure.
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by Kursk1943 »

ORIGINAL: John B.

TF at the start of the day.

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Don't know if this is of any influence: the MaxReact is set to zero.
I always set it to six when I intend a most aggressive stance of the TF. Works especially well with Surface and ASW-TFs.
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by Sardaukar »

I think the reason is that Yamaguchi failed his aggressiveness roll and decided that caution is needed. React range 0 might have influenced it too. Maybe admiral saw that destination would have put him into disadvantage...

Hyper-aggressive commander like Halsey (Agg 90) are bit annoying especially when react range is 6. They tend to attack anything even when it is not beneficial.
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Alfred
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by Alfred »

This is WAD, it is not a bug.
 
TF 217 moves only 3 hexes from Tokyo because it has to refuel.  The two CLAAs are below the endurance threshold which triggers their refuelling.
 
The moral of the story is never leave port with so little fuel in the bunkers as it will force refuelling each turn.
 
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

Now that's interesting. It was set for a round trip of 22 hexes and the TF stopped after three hexes but did not refuel from the other ships in the TF. I've learned the hard way that ships will refuel at sea even if you have a don't refuel order placed on them but here that did not happen.

Regarding endurance, I went back in and put one of the two CLAA's into a TF with a round trip to Iwo (34 hexes or 12 hexes more than it was expected to cover under its existing orders) and it still shows up green in its endurance. I've seen orange for "danger low fuel" and red for "expect to die adrift at sea" but I've never seen a green endurance ship refuse to move. I've even sent out merchants in the orange zone and they still sail their full complement of hexes. Is there a different calculus at work if you're moving towards an enemy ship?


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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

FYI, Scott and I reran the turn and the combat was pretty different. But the two CV TFs again stopped after three hexes. @Sardaukar, maybe Yamaguchi is trying to tell me from beyond the grave that it's a really really stupid move. :)

@BBFanboy, here is the third CV TF. It was the smaller CVs and it moved normally and participated in the combat.

@ Kursk That's an interesting point. I deliberately set the reaction to zero so they did not do the carrier jump and go too far.

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

BTW, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this issue! [&o][&o][&o]
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

Ah ha! I got a picture of the issue I was talking about. Here you can see that I've put the cursor over the CV TF in question. When I click on the TF the following sequence happens:

1. As you can see in this first picture, when I click on the TF it briefly shows a green patrol zone for the TF.

Then. . .

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

2. The normal TF info. screen appears.

Then . . .

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

When I exit the TF info. screen it shows that the TF has the normal yellow TF path highlighted with no hint of the green patrol zone.

Any other TF I click either shows a yellow TF path or a green patrol zone, they do not show both. The only TFs that show both are the two CV TFS I've been discussing and a surface TF with the Hiei that also only went a few hexes and then stopped.



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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

I haven't discussed the Hiei TF because hey, it's only a BB. But it become relevant given the idea that the lack of fuel slowed down the CV TFs. Here is the Hiei TF about to leave Yokahama and the fuel bunkers are full.

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

And the Hiei TF only moved 4 hexes and it stopped as well and has the green patrol zone show up for just about a second before it reverts to the yellow TF destination screen. Note that this TF was set at a 6 reaction range and the TF commander has a 67 naval and 75 aggression rating.

The two CV TFs and the Hiei each stopped both times we ran the turn and they are the only TFs that have this brief patrol zone show up before they revert to the yellow TF path. All other TFs leaving Tokyo and Yokohama moved normally.

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by Alfred »

Keep going around in circles, after all there are plenty of peo9ple on the forum who take great delight in claiming I don't know what I'm talking.
 
1.  Refuelling at sea does not operate how you think it does.  But then what do I know apparently.
 
2.  The auto refuelling at sea thresholds are not what you think they are.  But then what do I know apparently.
 
3.  You keep looking at irrelevant metrics.  But then what do I know apparently.
 
 
The CLAAs are the primary problem.  There can be other minor factors at play but they would not enter into the picture if the CLAAs were fully bunkered.  Why do you think michaelm75au and Don Bowen always insisted on a saved file?  Because the players never provide all the details.
 
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

Alfred, I appear to have hurt your feelings and I truly apologize if I did!

Obviously I can't dissect the code so I can't either prove or disprove what you say and I'm not arguing with you, I'm merely pointing out evidence that does not fit with your hypothesis.

1. Each ship in the Hiei TF was fully fueled, it had no CLAAs, and had the same problem.

2. The three TFs that had the problem all have the green patrol zone briefly show up before they show the yellow TF path. No other TF demonstrates that little quirk and AFIK I have not seen it before.

3. The exact same thing happened both times the turn was run which does not fit with typical random nature of events in this game. It could fit, of course, assuming the die rolls were the same, but certainly an indication that something else is at work.

It might very well be a refueling problem and there is some other explanation as to why the fully fuled Hiei TF behaved the same way, or, it might not. :)

As always, I really appreciate your input and the input of everyone else.

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: John B.

Ah ha! I got a picture of the issue I was talking about. Here you can see that I've put the cursor over the CV TF in question. When I click on the TF the following sequence happens:

1. As you can see in this first picture, when I click on the TF it briefly shows a green patrol zone for the TF.

Then. . .

Image
Sometimes the first routing displayed for a hex is not the selected TF, but one of the other TFs in the hex. Did you have other TFs set to patrol those two hexes or have waypoints set in them? The green hex border might not have anything to do with the CV TF problem.

I think one CLAA commander has a date with Tokyo Rose and the other one has a date with WITP's Annie, so they are dragging their feet on staying at sea!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

Lol, I think you're right. A picture of Tokyo Rose imprisoned by her love for Captain Muruyama of the CLAA Abukuma. [:D] http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... ed_treason

There is an ASW patrol in that hex that is set to patrol those two hexes. But, the green patrol zone I show you shows up when I click on the Carrier TF is there for less than a second and without me clicking on anything the CV TF info. screen shows up. When I close the CV TF screen is when the yellow TF path appears. The exact same thing happens with the Hiei TF. But not for the DD TF that is in a third hex (and did not have its movement halted).

When I click on the ASW TF in that hex it show the green patrol zone, the ASW TF info. screen appears and when I close that the green patrol zone is still there. My current theory is that the TFs movement got tangled up some how with the ASW TFs.

So, Scott and I are going to try an experiment. I redid my turn and the only things I changed were to move the ASW TFs out of the way and I took the two CV TFs off of follow targeted them on the same hex independently. Scott will redo his turn as best he can and then we'll see. If it's refueling my ships should be stuck in the same hexes and we'll keep going on from there.
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by BBfanboy »

I get those kind of path display anomalies all the time when I have follow/meet merge commands or waypoints with refueling set. I often have ships coming from CT through the strait of Malacca on their way to the South China Sea. I set them to refuel at Medan and suddenly their entry point onto the map changes as plotted by the yellow hex path. When the TF does get on map I cannot see the TF path when I select the hex but I can when I select the TF. That usually means having to move the TF info screen to see the part of the path under it. And if I select "Return same route" with the waypoint/refueling order set, I get no path showing at all.

Another anomaly is getting double plots when I select a hex with two TFs in it by clicking on one of the TFs (usually the higher numbered one). The game is programmed to display the first TF first but if you click on the second one directly it will show one TF screen but both plots.

So with all the follow commands going on and refueling at sea in the background, and an ASW plot in the same area you are going to with your CVs, I can see the game not sure what to display.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by Trugrit »


I thought I would add some documentation on refueling in the game.

For new players Don Bowen was the naval team programmer.

Don Bowen post #465:
fb.asp?m=1647369

Don Bowen post #24:
fb.asp?m=2263772

Don Bowen post #399:
fb.asp?m=2207994

Don Bowen post #4:
fb.asp?m=2277883

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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by John B. »

Truegrit, thanks for posting those links. It's very interesting. [&o] To me it makes sense that individual ship and TF commanders may be willing to overlook our fondest desires and refuel if they're being sent out on a mission where they will run out of fuel. We'll see if that's the issue here when Scott and I do the turn.

BBFanboy, I have not seen this anomaly before but then, of course, I have not been looking until now. Given your experience it would appear to be normal for the anomaly to appear for the CV TFs since one was set to follow the other but the Hiei TF has it as well and it's not folloing, being followed, or refueling.

The reason I did not refuel my ships in the CV TFs before they left port was that I did not expect them to come back. Perhaps the pixels have outsmarted me. :)
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RE: Ship movement into battle

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: John B.

Truegrit, thanks for posting those links. It's very interesting. [&o] To me it makes sense that individual ship and TF commanders may be willing to overlook our fondest desires and refuel if they're being sent out on a mission where they will run out of fuel. We'll see if that's the issue here when Scott and I do the turn.

BBFanboy, I have not seen this anomaly before but then, of course, I have not been looking until now. Given your experience it would appear to be normal for the anomaly to appear for the CV TFs since one was set to follow the other but the Hiei TF has it as well and it's not folloing, being followed, or refueling.

The reason I did not refuel my ships in the CV TFs before they left port was that I did not expect them to come back. Perhaps the pixels have outsmarted me. :)
OMG - the computer has become self-aware and refuses your direction to send its pixels on a suicide mission! Is your Internet Service Provider called "Skynet" by any chance? [X(]
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