Survace combat, how much damage?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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jagsdomain
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Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by jagsdomain »

Started a new gane with Dec 7 but non historical turn. Yes I know its cheating.
I wanted to know how the survace combat was going to work. I sorted 8 BB 2 CA 2 CL and some DD. Found the IJN cv task force,2 bb 2 CA 2 CL 6 CV and some DD saved it and experimented.
Most of the time I did some damage and got some in return. No sunk or even heavy damage.
Other time my force was whiped out and barly a hit on the cv force.
1 time I sunk IJN BB amd heavy damage on another, anither time I sunk 2 IJN cv.
One time they did not attack at all.
One would think a force of bb, Ca and cl could take 2 bb 6 cv 2 ca 2 cl and some dd.
The damage model seems very random or realistic not sure which is true.
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RangerJoe
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by RangerJoe »

That is the nature of the game. Besides, the IJN task force is faster than the Pearl Harbor BBs so it should get away. But someone in a PBEM game did sail an undamaged USS Arizona out with other ships and that TF did sink two IJN CVs right away and another one sank on the way home. The IJN player did not quit and played a very good game. I believe that it still continues with a different Allied player.
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BillBrown
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by BillBrown »

It was a whole series of attacks. You can find it here in Obverts AAR. Look at page 2.
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BBfanboy
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by BBfanboy »

I experimented with the same idea when I was learning how to handle Surface Combat.
1. Your TF is too large and unwieldy- I bet a lot of ships did not engage at all. I used 3 or 4 large ships with a similar number of DDs.
2. You mixed fast/slow ships plus BB/CA in the same TF. To simplify range setting for the engagement the game engine seems to favour fewer calibers. Put BBs in a separate TF from cruisers.
3. Multiple TFs result in more of your ships getting a chance to fire and the enemy running out of major caliber ammo and torpedoes by the time your later TFs engage.

My best set-up: CAs in the first TF (good punch and speed), CLs in the second TF (good against DDs and able to dodge torps reasonably well), 4 BBs with 14" guns in the next TF, 4 BBs with 16" and 14" guns in the next TF, any spare DDs in the last TF (I think I had about 6).

DMs, DMSs, AMs and other small ships ran ASW interference.
I spent a lot of PP to make sure the big ships had good captains, but low crew experience led to disappointing hit stats. The speed and experience of KB also contributed, of course.

Subs were vectored into the area where KB would be but not all in the same hex- that is counter-productive. You want them to make KB's retreat from your TFs expensive.

Send PBYs with torpedoes on naval strike at 1000 feet. They will suffer from flak but dodge most of the CAP.
Use other aircraft on naval search to get a D/L on KB.

Remember to give your SCTFs patrol zones and reaction settings.

Keep in mind that even with non-historic start the US TFs will not move until the day Naval Movement Step. Set them all at flank speed.

I think my best result during my sandbox sessions was 2 CVs sunk, 3 HF/HD and one HF. Both Hiei and Kirishima were badly damaged an out of ammo.
I lost a CA, a CL and about four DDs and had significant damage to most other big ships, but was able to cobble together a couple of SCTFs from the remnants to pursue KB cripples and finish another couple of carriers and a BB.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
jagsdomain
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by jagsdomain »

That's very true about ships fireing. I swear 2 bb never fire more than once.
As to the planes. I set 2 PBY to search and the rest to Naval attack but they never seem to do anything.
I am not sure why. I cant tell them to attack a given unit because there not spotted yet.
How can I get the bombers and cats to attack?
gmtello
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by gmtello »

My op always use tf surface combat with 25 ships and If u face that tf with a minor one lets say 15 ships normally my tf gets badly damaged so i am not using tfs of les than 25 to avoid that
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RangerJoe
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by RangerJoe »

PT boats attack first, two PT boats per TF. Then put 2 DDs with low threat tolerance on low moonlight/stormy weather and send them to make torpedo runs. They will flee quickly and the enemy TF may not even fire or fire very little. Do that with lower numbered TFs then send in your higher numbered TFs with your heavier ships after his has used up a bunch of ammo or has had ships torpedoed.

Aircraft may not fly into a high CAP area if they don't have fighter escort. Use the Cats during the day with no enemy CAP or on night torpedo attacks.
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GetAssista
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by GetAssista »

Speed seems to play a very important role when trying to catch a CV TF. The catching itself is coded to be pretty hard in the first place, since CVs' first intention is to always run from surface combat. And boy, can they run fast. So the best bet is to use fast ships first to try expend CV TF action points and escorts' ammo and ideally have some hits to slow the guys down. Then your BBs will have better chances.
The order of TF acting in each tick is determined by the TF number, but there are many ticks during each phase.
spence
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by spence »

I ran the same sort of experiment several times and got pretty much the same sort of results as the original poster. I turned First Turn Surprise to OFF but it did not seem to make much difference in the way the first turn played out.
jagsdomain
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by jagsdomain »

Were you able to set a cap over Pearl?
If you did can you tell me what I am missing? I have fighter set to 100 percent cap but nothing.
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RangerJoe
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by RangerJoe »

If you set CAP that high, it will wear itself out. If more are needed, they will fly.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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engineer
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by engineer »

I've been sandboxing night actions in the Guadalcanal scenario. The AI in the surface actions seems pretty reasonable in its tactical decisions. The inferior force tries to break contact while putting the escorts forward to draw fire. If the inferior force is faster, the superior force need a lucky hit to inflict high flotation or engine damage to slow them down and prevent disengagement.

I'm partway through Friedman's Naval Firepower and in the preface he notes that USN and Japanese daylight naval gunnery was comparable at the start of WW2 based on his research. However, I was nosing through the editor, and the US 14" guns only have 60% the intrinsic accuracy of the 36 cm guns on the Kongo Class.

How close are you getting in the daylight actions?

I think both sides over-estimated the accuracy of their gunnery at long range, and luck is going to play a big role in any one action. The multiple waves idea that BBfanboy suggested is good one.
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BillBrown
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RE: Survace combat, how much damage?

Post by BillBrown »

I just noticed I forgot to put the link in my post above. here it is https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3101451
The Dec 8 fight starts in post 24. Notice that there are a number of small SCTFs that engage KB until a BB TF gets there(twice).
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