Capturing Leningrad

[johncorrigan]

On page 300 of the manual it states, "There are ports on either side of Lake Ladoga, if you capture the one on the west bank or the 3 on the east bank, Leningrad will be isolated and vulnerable to a head on assault." Where are these ports on the shores on Lake Ladoga? Is the manual referring to Pushkin, Kolpino and Pavlovo?

Thanks!!

-- John

[Telemecus]

Usually this means

East side
Sviritsa 90,12
Novoya Ladoga 87,15
Kobona 85,15

West Side
Osinovets 82,15

[johncorrigan]

I see!! Thank you!!!

--John

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: johncorrigan

I see!! Thank you!!!

--John

You can bomb Osinovets into submission .. harder now with the Soviets defending this weak point ..

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Bombing Osinovets in patches before current could happen and did happen. Against any Soviet of intermediate level or higher in current patch this is a pure 100% pipe dream. Just not going to happen at all.

[thedoctorking]

Happened to me in the 2by3+ game under an older patch, but now with the improved effectiveness of AAA plus willingness to leave some fighters in the city it would never work.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Happened to me in the 2by3+ game under an older patch, but now with the improved effectiveness of AAA plus willingness to leave some fighters in the city it would never work.

Never say never [;)]

But I would say that if the Soviet devotes AAA and fighters .. then it is a lot harder and takes a lot more German commitment .. but maybe not impossible [&:].. just very very expensive .. [8D]

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Bombing Osinovets in patches before current could happen and did happen. Against any Soviet of intermediate level or higher in current patch this is a pure 100% pipe dream. Just not going to happen at all.

I agree with you. Unless the Soviets completely ignore the air defense of Osinovets, it simply won't happen. It is a change that I rather like

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Bombing Osinovets in patches before current could happen and did happen. Against any Soviet of intermediate level or higher in current patch this is a pure 100% pipe dream. Just not going to happen at all.

I agree with you. Unless the Soviets completely ignore the air defense of Osinovets, it simply won't happen. It is a change that I rather like

I would contend that a German player that understands how air power in this game works would make a game of it. Everybody says it is impossible and it can be made to be very expensive.. on the other hand the Soviet fighters can be brought out to play and the airfields bombed making the defense expensive. That in itself is a game inside itself.

The other thing I that all those SU’s are going to surrender when Leningrad is isolated.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Bombing Osinovets in patches before current could happen and did happen. Against any Soviet of intermediate level or higher in current patch this is a pure 100% pipe dream. Just not going to happen at all.

I agree with you. Unless the Soviets completely ignore the air defense of Osinovets, it simply won't happen. It is a change that I rather like

I would contend that a German player that understands how air power in this game works would make a game of it. Everybody says it is impossible and it can be made to be very expensive.. on the other hand the Soviet fighters can be brought out to play and the airfields bombed making the defense expensive. That in itself is a game inside itself.

The other thing I that all those SU’s are going to surrender when Leningrad is isolated.

The point isn't whether a German player can make a it work or not, the point is that IF the Soviet player properly defends Osinovets the cost of destroying the port can get very high very quick like you stated. All that won't amount to much since you need to hit the port for a couple of weeks to put it out of action. And the LW isn't very keen in losing a lot of bombers in a short amount of time.

The defense really isn't expensive since the Soviets can take pretty much any kind of beating and just rotate fighters in and out of the area. Could it be achieved? There is always a possibility of someone pulling it off even against a really good Soviet player but that means that you will have to accept certain trade offs: be ready to take heavy losses (which also affect morale and exp), be ready to deploy a significant portion of the LW to the area (thus denying support to other sectors), hope to actually hit the port enough so that the damage keeps increasing week after week etc.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Bombing Osinovets in patches before current could happen and did happen. Against any Soviet of intermediate level or higher in current patch this is a pure 100% pipe dream. Just not going to happen at all.

I agree with you. Unless the Soviets completely ignore the air defense of Osinovets, it simply won't happen. It is a change that I rather like

I would contend that a German player that understands how air power in this game works would make a game of it. Everybody says it is impossible and it can be made to be very expensive.. on the other hand the Soviet fighters can be brought out to play and the airfields bombed making the defense expensive. That in itself is a game inside itself.

The other thing I that all those SU’s are going to surrender when Leningrad is isolated.

No way in hell even a German player that understands how air power in this game works would ever make a game of it. I have more than enough experience on both sides to know this as fact. It is a pipe dream plain and simple under current patch. Not to mention if you stuff enough AA in that port(in an HQ) you will shoot down 90%+ of the bombers every run. You will run out of bombers before the port ever gets to 100%. Hence why there needs to be a patch to fix the AA.

Who leaves SU’s in Leningrad? If you do then you are doing it wrong. Soviets can get those SU’s out easily without surrendering. I’m sure people can figure out the way to do this(hint in paragraph above)

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: xhoel




I agree with you. Unless the Soviets completely ignore the air defense of Osinovets, it simply won't happen. It is a change that I rather like

I would contend that a German player that understands how air power in this game works would make a game of it. Everybody says it is impossible and it can be made to be very expensive.. on the other hand the Soviet fighters can be brought out to play and the airfields bombed making the defense expensive. That in itself is a game inside itself.

The other thing I that all those SU’s are going to surrender when Leningrad is isolated.

The point isn't whether a German player can make a it work or not, the point is that IF the Soviet player properly defends Osinovets the cost of destroying the port can get very high very quick like you stated. All that won't amount to much since you need to hit the port for a couple of weeks to put it out of action. And the LW isn't very keen in losing a lot of bombers in a short amount of time.

The defense really isn't expensive since the Soviets can take pretty much any kind of beating and just rotate fighters in and out of the area. Could it be achieved? There is always a possibility of someone pulling it off even against a really good Soviet player but that means that you will have to accept certain trade offs: be ready to take heavy losses (which also affect morale and exp), be ready to deploy a significant portion of the LW to the area (thus denying support to other sectors), hope to actually hit the port enough so that the damage keeps increasing week after week etc.

German bombers are better used to support ground operations. But that is just me. Sending bombers to a hex stuffed with AA in current patch is suicidal.

[xhoel]

Sending bombers to a hex stuffed with AA in current patch is suicidal.

True. It is the reason why I do not bomb major urban centers (which have a lot of AA). The AA fire is devastating.

[Telemecus]

A question to those who have started games in the latest patches and have not just upgraded to them. Does the flak impose large losses but still enable you to inflict damage? Or does it not even let you build damage?

Reason why I ask is that it can still leave a strategic choice. If the bombers are better used for ground support or you can get Leningrad anyway fine. But if you gave me a choice of 300 level bombers or Leningrad in 41 - I would always sacrifice the level bombers rather than not get Leningrad. And I would use mud in 1941 for level bombers to recover morale etc. Similarly a couple of hundred level bombers to get damage high on a fighter bomber factory so that it has to be evacuated is still a good trade. Here I am thinking of the long term balance of the game. If you are playing a bitter end scenario where lost bombers means victory points it might be another story.

So even if tactically a disaster, could it not still be strategically a success?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

A question to those who have started games in the latest patches and have not just upgraded to them. Does the flak impose large losses but still enable you to inflict damage? Or does it not even let you build damage?

Reason why I ask is that it can still leave a strategic choice. If the bombers are better used for ground support or you can get Leningrad anyway fine. But if you gave me a choice of 300 level bombers or Leningrad in 41 - I would always sacrifice the level bombers rather than not get Leningrad. And I would use mud in 1941 for level bombers to recover morale etc. Similarly a couple of hundred level bombers to get damage high on a fighter bomber factory so that it has to be evacuated is still a good trade. Here I am thinking of the long term balance of the game. If you are playing a bitter end scenario where lost bombers means victory points it might be another story.

So even if tactically a disaster, could it not still be strategically a success?

Your question in the opening should have been, “How many people were able to take Leningrad before the bombing campaign to shut the port down took effect”? Plus you are smoking “crack” if you think you will lose only 300 bombers, or some other arbitrary number that low, for bombing the port and then capturing Leningrad. Your losses will be MUCH MUCH MUCH higher not only in bombers. 300 is more like the first turn or two. The Germans will capture Leningrad way before the port ever gets shut down by bombing. It is that simple and the current patch makes it that way. My advice is not waste the resources as Germany that can be better spent elsewhere “strategically” & “tactically”. Or people can learn the hard way against a good Soviet player. The choice is theirs.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

A question to those who have started games in the latest patches and have not just upgraded to them. Does the flak impose large losses but still enable you to inflict damage? Or does it not even let you build damage?

Your question in the opening should have been, “How many people were able to take Leningrad before the bombing campaign to shut the port down took effect”? Plus you are smoking “crack” if you think you will lose only 300 bombers, or some other arbitrary number that low, for bombing the port and then capturing Leningrad. Your losses will be MUCH MUCH MUCH higher not only in bombers. 300 is more like the first turn or two. The Germans will capture Leningrad way before the port ever gets shut down by bombing. It is that simple and the current patch makes it that way. My advice is not waste the resources as Germany that can be better spent elsewhere “strategically” & “tactically”. Or people can learn the hard way against a good Soviet player. The choice is theirs.

So the answer to the question I asked is? [:)]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Bombing Osinovets in patches before current could happen and did happen. Against any Soviet of intermediate level or higher in current patch this is a pure 100% pipe dream. Just not going to happen at all.

I agree with you. Unless the Soviets completely ignore the air defense of Osinovets, it simply won't happen. It is a change that I rather like

I concur with you that it is a change I like too. It was way too easy in the past for the German to bomb the port into submission.