Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
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- paulderynck
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
I've played around with the game file from Post #2 and there are a couple problems with it. Even though it does look like the right number of CPs are out, their locations don't match up to the production directives.
First off I looked for CP bottlenecks. The way I do this is very similar to what I do over the paper map or in Vassal. So let's look first at the UK. There are 15 CPs adjacent. Great, AAMOF in 1939 you can actually run one short and let rounding fill it in.
Now what is feeding those 15? 16 in NA and CSV. Great. What is feeding those? Looks like 18 in EC, CA, CV and WMed. Looks OK but it's not OK - because of France's orders. In the Med, 3 must be carrying the two resources lent from Malaya and the oil from Iraq, since all are shown going to France. That leaves 4 for carrying CW stuff. But where are they coming from? Two from India and 1 from Cyprus, but the other can only be the oil from Burma or the oil from Persia and they are both being directed to be saved in Burma and Egypt respectively. So it looks like the number of CPs is OK but in fact one is wasted. Things might improve if Burma or Persia (but not both) were sent to the UK.
Going back to what is feeding 16 which feed the 15 going to the UK? We now know its 3 from the Med, but now consider Cape Verde. One of those must be Senegal going next to CSV and then through Spain to France. That leaves 3 from the Med, 3 from CV, 6 from EC and 1 from CA. But there are only 6 resources directed to come from the "New World" to the UK. So only a total of 12 can possibly arrive even if the CP routing cooperated.
Looking at the CP routes before trying to change anything and it seems apparent they are processed from top to bottom with a preference for using the Bay of Biscay first, since it is the African resources that are being sent through the Faroes! (only 2 make it). So that's how the program gets to 18 BPs for the CW. 11 are getting through, plus 2 in the UK plus the 5 overseas.
The trouble is even when I tried sending the Persia oil and Canadian oil for production, I could not get the CP routes to change and the program kept trying to change one or both of the resources that were supposed to be going to France.
First off I looked for CP bottlenecks. The way I do this is very similar to what I do over the paper map or in Vassal. So let's look first at the UK. There are 15 CPs adjacent. Great, AAMOF in 1939 you can actually run one short and let rounding fill it in.
Now what is feeding those 15? 16 in NA and CSV. Great. What is feeding those? Looks like 18 in EC, CA, CV and WMed. Looks OK but it's not OK - because of France's orders. In the Med, 3 must be carrying the two resources lent from Malaya and the oil from Iraq, since all are shown going to France. That leaves 4 for carrying CW stuff. But where are they coming from? Two from India and 1 from Cyprus, but the other can only be the oil from Burma or the oil from Persia and they are both being directed to be saved in Burma and Egypt respectively. So it looks like the number of CPs is OK but in fact one is wasted. Things might improve if Burma or Persia (but not both) were sent to the UK.
Going back to what is feeding 16 which feed the 15 going to the UK? We now know its 3 from the Med, but now consider Cape Verde. One of those must be Senegal going next to CSV and then through Spain to France. That leaves 3 from the Med, 3 from CV, 6 from EC and 1 from CA. But there are only 6 resources directed to come from the "New World" to the UK. So only a total of 12 can possibly arrive even if the CP routing cooperated.
Looking at the CP routes before trying to change anything and it seems apparent they are processed from top to bottom with a preference for using the Bay of Biscay first, since it is the African resources that are being sent through the Faroes! (only 2 make it). So that's how the program gets to 18 BPs for the CW. 11 are getting through, plus 2 in the UK plus the 5 overseas.
The trouble is even when I tried sending the Persia oil and Canadian oil for production, I could not get the CP routes to change and the program kept trying to change one or both of the resources that were supposed to be going to France.
Paul
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
It becomes even more complicated, program I suppose, when other major powers are active allies and their convoys can be used. Routing using those convoys gets messed up.
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Welcome to Steve's world I suspect. That's why I'd like to see an option for manual so the player can fully decide his convoy routes.ORIGINAL: gw15
It becomes even more complicated, program I suppose, when other major powers are active allies and their convoys can be used. Routing using those convoys gets messed up.
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
let us have the ability to move Canadian resources to England through the Faeroes Gap!
OK, I see the problem. You want to save the Canadian oil in Estevan, and ship all non-oil Canadian resources to England for production. Canadian factories produce using extra Australian resources.
Attempted Solution, running 2.9.4: in production planning you want to
1. Choose "route" layout
2. Choose Convoys display "1 Route"
3. on the step-by-step route, rt-click on a stop BEFORE the convoys
4. click once on each sea zone you'd like the resource to travel through
5. click a second time on the final zone (Faeroes Gap for the Canadian resources of course)
Do this for each of the 5 Canadian resources. Then, click on one of the other idle resources, hit recompute, and watch all 5 of your hand-selected Canadian resource routes revert to the Bay of Biscay....
That's the bug in a nutshell. I tried a couple variations on fixing it too, all with the same problem.
The core problem: the convoy routing needs to remember what you told it to do for each resource.
--> BUG CONFIRMED <--- (running 2.9.4)
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- Convoyrouting.jpg (355.34 KiB) Viewed 59 times
- paulderynck
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- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Also the slightest change seems to make the program think it has to find a new source for one or both of the resources being lent to France. And yet, there is no need to change those default settings. Plus the mysterious choosing of the Faroes to send the resources from Africa after insisting the Canadian resources go through the bay of Biscay. That seems to be what is forcing one Canadian resource (the oil) and one African resource to be idle.
Paul
- paulderynck
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Further to this, it appears something got broken between version 2.7.0 and 2.9.4. I back-versioned the game file (which I had advanced through to preliminary production) and did the following using version 2.7.1:
1. First off I found that a directive has to be in Default mode before changing its route. If it is not showing in green, even though you click from 'Compute' to 'Default' then if you right-click 'Route' in the Route display, you get a MadExcept.
2. So the process that worked was to first correct the route for the two African resources, then convert the directives for Canadian resources to Default (but don't touch their routes yet!), then make a Default directive to send the Persian and Canadian oil to two idle factories and also the idle African resource to an idle factory (again a Default setting). Then hit Recompute.
3. Now I only got 17 BPs of production so it looked like a step backward but that was because the Canadian resources were still routing through the Bay of Biscay. But now since they were Default directives, I could change their routing to go through the Faroes. So I did that for all the Canadian resources, and then hit Recompute and it actually worked!
Edit: But I somehow doubt any but the most fanatic MWiF players with lots of time on their hands will want to back-version their game every time it comes time to do production. Especially as I just discovered - if you take the file that was working with version 2.7.1 and load it into version 2.9.4, then production is broken again.
1. First off I found that a directive has to be in Default mode before changing its route. If it is not showing in green, even though you click from 'Compute' to 'Default' then if you right-click 'Route' in the Route display, you get a MadExcept.
2. So the process that worked was to first correct the route for the two African resources, then convert the directives for Canadian resources to Default (but don't touch their routes yet!), then make a Default directive to send the Persian and Canadian oil to two idle factories and also the idle African resource to an idle factory (again a Default setting). Then hit Recompute.
3. Now I only got 17 BPs of production so it looked like a step backward but that was because the Canadian resources were still routing through the Bay of Biscay. But now since they were Default directives, I could change their routing to go through the Faroes. So I did that for all the Canadian resources, and then hit Recompute and it actually worked!
Edit: But I somehow doubt any but the most fanatic MWiF players with lots of time on their hands will want to back-version their game every time it comes time to do production. Especially as I just discovered - if you take the file that was working with version 2.7.1 and load it into version 2.9.4, then production is broken again.
Paul
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
I tell you what, in my AAR at tm.asp?m=4576328&mpage=4 the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill is ready to have his convoy router sacked and sent to some remote output in the Commonwealth! Any suggestions where he might send him?
There is just NO EXCUSE for MWIF CONTINUALLY changing/ignoring my simple request. Specifically, I want two AUS to go to Canada. I have the CP's routes set up to do so and there's absolutely no reason for any other resource to use those CP's. But every time I route two AUS resources to Montreal and Toronto and then two Canadian RP's to Great Britain, MWIF UNDO'S MY ROUTING OF THE AUS resources.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I don't know if you can tell or not but I'm bit frustrated at the moment with MWIF convoy routing. [:@]
Game turn attached if anyone want to give it a try and experience the wonderful frustration I'm dealing with.
There is just NO EXCUSE for MWIF CONTINUALLY changing/ignoring my simple request. Specifically, I want two AUS to go to Canada. I have the CP's routes set up to do so and there's absolutely no reason for any other resource to use those CP's. But every time I route two AUS resources to Montreal and Toronto and then two Canadian RP's to Great Britain, MWIF UNDO'S MY ROUTING OF THE AUS resources.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I don't know if you can tell or not but I'm bit frustrated at the moment with MWIF convoy routing. [:@]
Game turn attached if anyone want to give it a try and experience the wonderful frustration I'm dealing with.
- Attachments
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- GW20181227.zip
- (1.46 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
P.S. ALSO WHY IS MWIF CONSTANTLY SELECTING THOSE TWO AUS FOR TRADE WITH FRANCE. I DON'T WANT THOSE SENT TO FRANCE AND MWIF CONTINUALLY IGNORES MY ATTEMPTS TO FIX THIS.
I know I'm shouting but I just felt like screaming. I feel a little better now but I'm still frustrated with convoy routing in 2.9.4. [:@]
I know I'm shouting but I just felt like screaming. I feel a little better now but I'm still frustrated with convoy routing in 2.9.4. [:@]
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Now, every time I close the production screen and then reopen it ... it gets worse. First it's 1 CW factory idle. Then I close the production form and reopen it and it's 2 factories idle. Then close and reopen again and it's 4 factories idle with a slew of idle CP's in the North Atlantic. And all these changes happen without me doing a DANG THING except closing and re-opening the production form.
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Ok. I've calmed down a bit now. I just chucked the above game and went back to the start of the allied naval move phase (autosave). For now, it seems I got things working well enough ... but you never know if it will last through to the end of the turn and, god forbid, if the allies take any CP losses who knows what will happen.
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Breathing is good... [8D]
Also, be nice to Santa Claus... He's your guy to solve the problem!
(I've actually done some design work on the routing; I'm about to do the hard thing and go from human-readable logic to computer-readable, always the hard step with something like this. Don't hold your breath.)
Also, be nice to Santa Claus... He's your guy to solve the problem!
(I've actually done some design work on the routing; I'm about to do the hard thing and go from human-readable logic to computer-readable, always the hard step with something like this. Don't hold your breath.)
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Interesting ... are you working with the MWiF code? Or, are you building a standalone "application" as a proof of concept for your approach? Either way, I wish you luck and would be interested in what you find.ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog
Breathing is good... [8D]
Also, be nice to Santa Claus... He's your guy to solve the problem!
(I've actually done some design work on the routing; I'm about to do the hard thing and go from human-readable logic to computer-readable, always the hard step with something like this. Don't hold your breath.)
Ronnie
- paulderynck
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
How did you get it to work in the first turn? I ask because it was working as a Default route in the game you first posted (and it was one of the few things that didn't pooch up in my numerous attempts to make it work as you desired).ORIGINAL: rkr1958
I tell you what, in my AAR at tm.asp?m=4576328&mpage=4 the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill is ready to have his convoy router shot! There is just NO EXCUSE for MWIF CONTINUALLY changing/ignoring my simple request. Specifically, I want two AUS to go to Canada. I have the CP's routes set up to do so and there's absolutely no reason for any other resource to use those CP's. But every time I route two AUS resources to Montreal and Toronto and then two Canadian RP's to Great Britain, MWIF UNDO'S MY ROUTING OF THE AUS resources.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I don't know if you can tell or not but I'm bit frustrated at the moment with MWIF convoy routing. [:@]
Game turn attached if anyone want to give it a try and experience the wonderful frustration I'm dealing with.
But anyway, it's clear to me from my post #26 that using MWiF versions subsequent to 2.7.1 completely dooms any attempts to get convoys working right for the CW.
Paul
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Not sure how I got it working in the first place, but I didn't get it working close to what I wanted. The way I did it was to use an autosave to go back to the beginning of the naval (for this current phase) and carefully made adjustments to convoys and resource allocations. I feel what I did, and got, is like setting a mousetrap. I've got it set but the slightest "bump" by me will set it off with a big snap that'll startled the heck out me. And then if that happens, I'm afraid I'll wind up with the mess that I posted on last night.ORIGINAL: paulderynck
How did you get it to work in the first turn? I ask because it was working as a Default route in the game you first posted (and it was one of the few things that didn't pooch up in my numerous attempts to make it work as you desired).ORIGINAL: rkr1958
I tell you what, in my AAR at tm.asp?m=4576328&mpage=4 the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill is ready to have his convoy router shot! There is just NO EXCUSE for MWIF CONTINUALLY changing/ignoring my simple request. Specifically, I want two AUS to go to Canada. I have the CP's routes set up to do so and there's absolutely no reason for any other resource to use those CP's. But every time I route two AUS resources to Montreal and Toronto and then two Canadian RP's to Great Britain, MWIF UNDO'S MY ROUTING OF THE AUS resources.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I don't know if you can tell or not but I'm bit frustrated at the moment with MWIF convoy routing. [:@]
Game turn attached if anyone want to give it a try and experience the wonderful frustration I'm dealing with.
But anyway, it's clear to me from my post #26 that using MWiF versions subsequent to 2.7.1 completely dooms any attempts to get convoys working right for the CW.
- Attachments
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- 02ALCWF..oduction.jpg (1.39 MiB) Viewed 59 times
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
FYI. Here's the "fragile" convoy routes/production allocations that I managed to set after going back to an autosave at the beginning of the naval.
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- Fragile-CW..y-Routes.zip
- (1.46 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
Ronnie
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
I moved both Liverpool convoys to BoB
Bel Congo to Amazon
Both NED conv to St. Vincent
I was able to get the CW production to zero idle factories but 1 lent res to France will not make it. The French oil is used in production for Paris but uses up Atlantic conv. there is no need to lend oil to France because France can use CW oil for reorg.
There just isn't enough convoys in the Atl to satisfy the lending. Either CW or France will lose 1 production. Your choice.
During the lending phase a lot of planning has to go into how to place the convoys to satisfy the lending. I'm personally too lazy to do that.
I do have 3 unused convoys in the Atlantic area that can be moved back to a HQ for reorg and then move out again to allow that 1 lost res to get to France through the BoB.
It was tricky to make the program to use the Aust res for Canadian factories. I had to idle all of Canada's and S. American res first and then default the Aust one's to Canada. Then default (or override) the 5 Canadian and 2 Guyana res to the UK.
Also, Cyprus is lent to France.
However, further work...changing one of the Indian res going all the way to the UK to lend to France fixed it for both CW and France. No lost lending.
Bel Congo to Amazon
Both NED conv to St. Vincent
I was able to get the CW production to zero idle factories but 1 lent res to France will not make it. The French oil is used in production for Paris but uses up Atlantic conv. there is no need to lend oil to France because France can use CW oil for reorg.
There just isn't enough convoys in the Atl to satisfy the lending. Either CW or France will lose 1 production. Your choice.
During the lending phase a lot of planning has to go into how to place the convoys to satisfy the lending. I'm personally too lazy to do that.
I do have 3 unused convoys in the Atlantic area that can be moved back to a HQ for reorg and then move out again to allow that 1 lost res to get to France through the BoB.
It was tricky to make the program to use the Aust res for Canadian factories. I had to idle all of Canada's and S. American res first and then default the Aust one's to Canada. Then default (or override) the 5 Canadian and 2 Guyana res to the UK.
Also, Cyprus is lent to France.
However, further work...changing one of the Indian res going all the way to the UK to lend to France fixed it for both CW and France. No lost lending.
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
ORIGINAL: gw15
I moved both Liverpool convoys to BoB
Bel Congo to Amazon
Both NED conv to St. Vincent
I was able to get the CW production to zero idle factories but 1 lent res to France will not make it. The French oil is used in production for Paris but uses up Atlantic conv. there is no need to lend oil to France because France can use CW oil for reorg.
There just isn't enough convoys in the Atl to satisfy the lending. Either CW or France will lose 1 production. Your choice.
During the lending phase a lot of planning has to go into how to place the convoys to satisfy the lending. I'm personally too lazy to do that.
I do have 3 unused convoys in the Atlantic area that can be moved back to a HQ for reorg and then move out again to allow that 1 lost res to get to France through the BoB.
It was tricky to make the program to use the Aust res for Canadian factories. I had to idle all of Canada's and S. American res first and then default the Aust one's to Canada. Then default (or override) the 5 Canadian and 2 Guyana res to the UK.
Also, Cyprus is lent to France.
However, further work...changing one of the Indian res going all the way to the UK to lend to France fixed it for both CW and France. No lost lending.
France cannot use CW oil for reorganisation. The French don't cooperate with the CW...
Peter
RE: Canadian Resources REFUSE to be routed through the Faeroes Gap.
Those pesky rules again. No wonder I never win this game. Another reason why I like having a game to enforce the rules for me.
ORIGINAL: Centuur
ORIGINAL: gw15
I moved both Liverpool convoys to BoB
Bel Congo to Amazon
Both NED conv to St. Vincent
I was able to get the CW production to zero idle factories but 1 lent res to France will not make it. The French oil is used in production for Paris but uses up Atlantic conv. there is no need to lend oil to France because France can use CW oil for reorg.
There just isn't enough convoys in the Atl to satisfy the lending. Either CW or France will lose 1 production. Your choice.
During the lending phase a lot of planning has to go into how to place the convoys to satisfy the lending. I'm personally too lazy to do that.
I do have 3 unused convoys in the Atlantic area that can be moved back to a HQ for reorg and then move out again to allow that 1 lost res to get to France through the BoB.
It was tricky to make the program to use the Aust res for Canadian factories. I had to idle all of Canada's and S. American res first and then default the Aust one's to Canada. Then default (or override) the 5 Canadian and 2 Guyana res to the UK.
Also, Cyprus is lent to France.
However, further work...changing one of the Indian res going all the way to the UK to lend to France fixed it for both CW and France. No lost lending.
France cannot use CW oil for reorganisation. The French don't cooperate with the CW...