IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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PaxMondo
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: spence


I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.
To be honest, since I am not handicapped by the silliness of politics, I am able to efficiently use my merchant marine. Thus, I have far more than needed. It has been many years since I have built a "merchie" in the game … there is no shortage - ever.

Remember, I play Andy AI and I developed the "Miracle Highway" so YMMV.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

If you can read Japanese, the economic records from the war still exist and can be obtained with permission from the national archives. some are being translated and are available. Production records just preceding the war for the DEI and PI are both readily available.

That the IJ was grossly overmatched is the truth. That they were as backward as frequently portrayed by the victors is not. That their political system, which allowed the war to start and be fought on the terms that it was (disdain for the conquered, etc) and handicapped them severely, is also accurate.

In so many words, IJ was a riddle to the West for most of the war. Since they didn't hold Western values, yet were able to defeat Western forces was something that had not been seen in centuries. NOt since the Golden Horde really. The Crusades to some extent.

Anyway, it is a fascinating period of history....

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by spence »

To be honest, since I am not handicapped by the silliness of politics, I am able to efficiently use my merchant marine. Thus, I have far more than needed. It has been many years since I have built a "merchie" in the game … there is no shortage - ever.

Remember, I play Andy AI and I developed the "Miracle Highway" so YMMV.

I do love this game but it is most assuredly a game. (I am skeptical about the ability of anybody to IRL create a "Miracle Highway" through a hostile nation under any circumstances. That ability is right up there with "all we need to do to break the stalemate in China is to declare war on the rest of the world".)

For an island nation (with a deficit of merchant shipping from the get go) to NOT SUBJECT ITS LINES OF COMMUNICATION TO ENEMY ATTACK IS UNREALISTIC IN THE EXTREME. That unrealistic ability is compounded by allowing the IJN/IJAAF to improve its ASW capability while simultaneously not requiring a report of every merchant ships' noon position (as the lackadaisical IJN shipping bureau really required [in a code a 3 year old could break]) and giving a whole bunch of IJN submarines a 4 hex search ability (their GLEN a/c can search a 4 hex radius twice a day even though IRL they could just barely fly a search pattern to a distance of 1 hex given 12 hours). Now it seems that even if one doesn't create a "Miracle Highway" one can still squirrel away most of that initially deficient merchant marine with no worry that your industry will ever suffer any problem producing at full measure much in the manner of Germany in WW2.

The game unfortunately requires that the Allied Player "play in IJ's ballpark and by IJ rules even though historically it was the IJN that decided to throw away 20 years of prewar planning for "The Decisive Battle" (to take place a few kilometers from the Imperial Homeland) and go out to seek the enemy in the far reaches of the Pacific. The Japanese Army had a telling name for the pivotal Battle of Guadalcanal: "Starvation Island".
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by Veloz »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Well there's the problem - the Japanese were not getting enough coffee!

[&o]


besides as WITP and WITPAE send coffee to china and home island Osaka and Hiroshima-kure (better supplies once you found it); and the game will run optimal

never take supplies from TOKYO as in WITP

learning WITPAE now what a game¡ ; the mechanics of production system is great

now you can build your own supplies

need a PBME soon, really good this thread
sicnt est pecunia Provis num; zeke
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by adarbrauner »

ORIGINAL: spence

I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.

Don't forget what said above, that we are mostly free from food shipping to Japan;

in addition, the greatest and most trustworthy resources source for Japan, in game, is from its northern islands (Hokkaido region);

now I have not found yet any document describing Hokkaido as rich in coal or any metal ore or any other meaningful resource besides fish and timber (and even so not at astronomical numbers), fact that leads me to think the extraordinary richness of Hokkaido in resources in game was imposed by the developers merely as a balancing issue;

degrade this importantan resources source in game ( as it coud be done in a mod and as I am planning to do) and you'll find much much less shipping sitting ... well moored in ports rather than sailing, guaranteed;
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by Yaab »

Obviously, the steroids were given by the devs to the both sides of the conflict. Allied player does need not to move resources from India to UK for their use in military production there. The CONUSA doesn't need to ship resources from South America to the States. I bet the Allied player gets the full merchant wartime OOB at his disposal to ship supply, while in RL those merchies moved both supply and resources.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Obviously, the steroids were given by the devs to the both sides of the conflict. Allied player does need not to move resources from India to UK for their use in military production there. The CONUSA doesn't need to ship resources from South America to the States. I bet the Allied player gets the full merchant wartime OOB at his disposal to ship supply, while in RL those merchies moved both supply and resources.

The allied naval authorities did not commandeer all the ships their countries possessed. They put what they needed to haul war materials (including food to isolated Britain) and left the small coasters to ply their trade up and down the coast moving whatever the civilian economy needed. On large land masses, rail transport expanded greatly to handle both military and civilian needs. So yes, the game does not need to model all of this civilian economy.

On the Japanese side, much of her food came from the sea, and rice/vegetable could easily be sent by rail to Fusan, Korea and moved to Honshu by small ship or barge. Having most of their young men fighting overseas would also reduce the pressure on their food stocks. Women did the farming and fishing.

So obviously, I think the game developers thought of these things and the game production/supply system works quite well.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by spence »

Oh yummy, mommy put a carrot in the grass soup today!
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: spence

I am an unabashed Allied only player (the blush is way off the rose as far as production is concerned). I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.

I have seen your first comment about keeping merchies in port but didn't want to reply for fear of triggering another flame war.

But well... I usually keep 'every merchie employed all the time'.

In my current PBEM my entire merchant fleet is busy hauling as many resources as possible to the HI to create a stockpile before increasingly effective Allied subs take their toll and Allied actions close the convoy routes.

My experience with "classic WitP" was that in the later stages of the campaign, I lacked resources but still had ample fuel/oil late war.

Maybe it is different in AE and I'm wasting precious fuel in shipping resources from the SRA.

More experienced players may have fine-tuned the industry management to a point where imports from China / Northern Japan are enough to sustain the economy up to and during the endgame while optimizing fuel consumption.

But I'm not a numbers-cruncher and I prefer to take no chances - better to have too much than too little resources stockpiled.

Dunno if there are AARs of Japanese players who have run-out of resources in the Home Islands?

However, I do have unemployed shipping - my tanker fleet. Even before the Allies started to bomb / take back / cut off oil centers in my current game, I had more tanker capacity available than oil / fuel to ship home.

In my present PBEM (Feb 44) I will lose Sumatra soon, so I plan to cut-back on shipping resources home and will have to lay-off a large part of my merchant fleet in order to preserve fuel - this is by necessity, not by choice.

I am not using the mystical "magic highway" because I consider it "gamey" (i.e. exploiting a game mechanism that allows unrealistic behavior).

I should add that I do play DBB-C exclusively, the mod has reduced cargo capacities of transports, merchant-ships and tankers by 30%.

What is the situation on the Allied side?

I have read comments from Allied players that they have so much shipping and supplies later in the game that they don't need to employ all available ships because front bases are already swimming in millions of supply points.

Probably the consequence of having full supply production on Day 1 (in stock and many mods).

To me it is notable that Allied players don't complain about 1944/45 production levels on Dec 7th, 1941 and the luxury of unemployed shipping later in the war
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

ORIGINAL: spence

I've only reached June of 1943 in any of my games twice and in both games long range recon of several ports over several turns showed a whole bunch of merchies just sitting around doing nothing. To me it is notable that none of those responding to this thread, all of whom do play the Japanese, has said that they keep 'every merchie employed all the time' instead of squirreling a bunch away in safe rear area ports.

Don't forget what said above, that we are mostly free from food shipping to Japan;

in addition, the greatest and most trustworthy resources source for Japan, in game, is from its northern islands (Hokkaido region);

now I have not found yet any document describing Hokkaido as rich in coal or any metal ore or any other meaningful resource besides fish and timber (and even so not at astronomical numbers), fact that leads me to think the extraordinary richness of Hokkaido in resources in game was imposed by the developers merely as a balancing issue;

degrade this importantan resources source in game ( as it coud be done in a mod and as I am planning to do) and you'll find much much less shipping sitting ... well moored in ports rather than sailing, guaranteed;

A Google search with keywords Hokkaido and natural resources yields ample results to find that Hokkaido was an important domestic source of mining products. It holds 45% of Japan's coal deposits and almost the entire supply of iron ore, plus modest amounts of copper and gold. Mining conditions however are difficult and thus expensive and post-war it was cheaper to import resources, so there is little left of the mining industry today.

In other words, it was an important source of DOMESTIC production. However, in the big picture the amounts were relatively minor compared to imports from other areas of the Empire and the SRA. IOW a certain amount of resource production on Hokkaido in the game is justified, but "by feel" it is too generous in the game - or the production in the SRA is too low. Speaking of modding, I have moved a sizeable part of Home Island resource production to the SRA in the Bottlenecks mod.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by rustysi »

I have seen your first comment about keeping merchies in port but didn't want to reply for fear of triggering another flame war.

Thanks LST, but I can't take it any more...[:D]

Spence, you old 'Puddle Pirate'.[:'(] Will you ever get off your high horse and stop telling us how all JFB's play. You are so far off the mark as to be absurd.
I do love this game but it is most assuredly a game.

I doubt that you truly love this game based on all your comments on this site. You are correct in one thing though, it is a game. I for one though would really appreciate it if you would stop telling me how I 'play my game'. You are nowhere near the mark.

So if you would like to have a discussion about said game let me know. I for one am tired of your constant inflammatory remarks.

BTW, again its a game. There're many things that are not historical, and I'm sure that's for many reasons. To me the biggest is playability. Besides even with all Japan gets the Allies will win, unless they are guided by an inferior player.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


The greatest "what if" for me is what would have happened if the Japanese had went in with a "liberating" mindset rather than a colonial one.
Or maybe "conquistador" mindset. :)


I agree, it makes for some interesting what ifs. The catch of course is absent their mindset, the war itself becomes more problematic.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Japan's (Home Islands) refining capabilities were slow. They were still cracking Mexican and California crude until late '44. I would guess that was pre-war bought oil.

Japanese ships could burn oil as fuel in their boilers, although with a decrease in engine performance and a increase in needed maintenance.

Allied POWs were worked in the fields. Sugar beets were one of the crops they grew.

Shipping stuff back to Japan, along with the Convoy System in general, was lacking in guidance and motivation.
A better way to look at it that a refinery is built to process a type of crude. It can be modified for others, but it isn't efficient and rarely done except it war.
So, the most efficient way, and AFAIK what the IJ did was to re-purpose only a few refineries for the DEI crudes and kept many set to run their stockpiles of USA crude. Remember, they thought the US would capitulate.

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by spence »

To be honest, since I am not handicapped by the silliness of politics, I am able to efficiently use my merchant marine. Thus, I have far more than needed. It has been many years since I have built a "merchie" in the game … there is no shortage - ever.


Just sayin' that I didn't say it.

I'm just saying that it is a restriction on Allied strategy which can not be justified by anything historical. A better game mechanic would be for the IJ Player to win by victory points which have been adjusted by a better matrix which evaluates how long it takes and how much force is used to obtain victory. Japan conquering the world to save themselves from a 3 year stalemate in China is what is absurd.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

spence,

you're too funny.

Just because what happened historically doesn't mean it was the only possible outcome. The historical fact that the IJ had a shortage of cargo ships wasn't due to number of ships, it was due to inefficient use. They tended to sit in port. The why of that is somewhat debatable and I won't broach those theories. But, ship logs are readily available and they show that those ships tended to sit in port rather than steam.


Regarding the "Miracle Highway", you choose to ignore history. Specifically history of the 1960's. Your choice. Now, I don't require anyone to accept the "Miracle Highway " concept, historically the IJ did NOT fully implement it. Could they? Years ago I took the time to do that math, using the data from the 1960's example (you might recall a southeast Asian conflict). The one resource that Asia, Southeast Asia in particular has, in abundance is manpower.

My analysis provided sufficient proof to me. I have the benefit of having seen this live, villages in Northeast Thailand were supplied with manufactured goods via human portage for decades. The local village store, granted it only had 4 shelves of items, but it did include gas for the two motor bikes in the village, was kept continually stocked by one guy who walked 40 km each and every day (20km each way roughly) with a nice 20kg load.

The last thing I want to point out about this is how he got the job. He got hurt as a kid, had a game arm. So he couldn't pull tapioca root or haul sugar cane or work the rice paddy like the rest of the village. So, this is the job he got. It was considered a part time job …


Just because we wouldn't do it, doesn't mean it isn't doable. [8D]
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by spence »

spence,

you're too funny.

Boy it's a really lucky thing that the poor Japanese professional soldiers and sailors didn't have your expertise on their side in the real war.
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by BullwinkleMogami »

Hi, If any of us sane, logical, people with our 20/20 hindsight had been in charge of Japan there would never have been a war in the first place. Japan is much more an industrial power now then in 1937. The treasure and manpower expended by Japan could have been used to achieve this end peacefully. There were other factors that convinced them war could benefit them. But mentioning these might get me in trouble with the more PC. Empires are not always worth the trouble.

But then we would not have our game to play
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle(Mogami)

Hi, If any of us sane, logical, people with our 20/20 hindsight had been in charge of Japan there would never have been a war in the first place. Japan is much more an industrial power now then in 1937. The treasure and manpower expended by Japan could have been used to achieve this end peacefully. There were other factors that convinced them war could benefit them. But mentioning these might get me in trouble with the more PC. Empires are not always worth the trouble.

But then we would not have our game to play
Exactly.

You state it better than I did, thanks. The things that created a lot of anger after the war are part of what created the war to begin with.
If you remove those, then you might not have had the conflict to begin with.

Having said that, it makes a great "what-if". That's the basis of my personal mod: Dec 7th happens, but then the junta is overthrown and more rationale people run the war.
They know they can't win, and later they realize that the allies will not capitulate. Their only hope is to draw enough resources from Europe into Asia to maybe force the allies to negotiate.
Slim outcome … still makes for a good story line against Andy's Nasty, Nasty scenario. [8D]
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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: spence
spence,

you're too funny.

Boy it's a really lucky thing that the poor Japanese professional soldiers and sailors didn't have your expertise on their side in the real war.
Oh Dear ... [:(]

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RE: IRL how much have Japanese got from conquered territories

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

... Regarding the "Miracle Highway", you choose to ignore history. Specifically history of the 1960's. Your choice. Now, I don't require anyone to accept the "Miracle Highway " concept, historically the IJ did NOT fully implement it. Could they? Years ago I took the time to do that math, using the data from the 1960's example (you might recall a southeast Asian conflict). The one resource that Asia, Southeast Asia in particular has, in abundance is manpower.

My analysis provided sufficient proof to me. I have the benefit of having seen this live, villages in Northeast Thailand were supplied with manufactured goods via human portage for decades. The local village store, granted it only had 4 shelves of items, but it did include gas for the two motor bikes in the village, was kept continually stocked by one guy who walked 40 km each and every day (20km each way roughly) with a nice 20kg load.

The last thing I want to point out about this is how he got the job. He got hurt as a kid, had a game arm. So he couldn't pull tapioca root or haul sugar cane or work the rice paddy like the rest of the village. So, this is the job he got. It was considered a part time job …


Just because we wouldn't do it, doesn't mean it isn't doable. [8D]

There are some very important factors present in the "1960s" but not present in the 1940s which greatly complicate any analysis which tries to compare the two different situations.

1. The Ho Chi Minh Trail was only a fraction of the distance covered by the game's Magical Highway. Consequently the resources required to establish, physically maintain, military protect and conduct logistical operations was considerably smaller. The overall economic opportunity costs associated with the Ho Chi Minh Trail, being much smaller than similar economic opportunity costs associated with the game's Magical Highway, were more easily borne by North Vietnam and it's significant economic allies than Japan which had no significant economic allies during the war.

2. Very limited quantums were delivered along the Ho Chi Minh Trail using only people power. Meaningful quantums only began to be delivered when the Trail was upgraded to take trucks and the mode of transportation became dominated by truck delivery. Even then the quantums delivered only sufficed to maintain a largely light infantry force. The scale of industrial inputs needed to be moved in order to maintain an industrialised economy, which the so much bigger Magical Highway allows Japan, is of such an order of magnitude that it simply guessing to assume that the chasm between the two situations could be bridged.

3. Japan's industrial economy in the 1940s was like swiss cheese. Competitive in certain areas with the West, woefully deficient with large holes in other areas. One of it's severe deficiencies was the automobile industry. Japan simply could not produce sufficient numbers of trucks to operate a Magical Highway. North Vietnam instead had access to trucks from its significant Communist allied nations.


The Magical Highway results from the game's logistical abstraction. The game is riddled with abstractions. Some aid the Allies more than Japan, others aid Japan more than the Allies. Some game abstractions aid certain player styles/capabilities over other player styles/capabilities. It is therefore a pointless exercise to focus on this particular game abstraction. But it is stretching credibility that if only for a different mindset, it was feasible for Japan to have created during the war, a logistical network able to perfectly mimic the game's Magical Highway.

Alfred
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