Surface combat

[gmtello]

What Is better for surfave combat 1 tf of 45 ships or 3 of 15 in the same hex . If the enemy use large Tfs or smaller ones Could vary?

[btd64]

A surface combat task force can have a maximum of 25 ships. Keeping that in mind it's entirely up to you. But the more the merrier....GP

[Xargun]

Would depend on the goal of the mission. Larger TFs are easier to spot so if you want to sneak in, hit a target and get away quick, smaller is better. Larger TFs offer better defense against air attack, but also increase the chance of a collision.

[dr.hal]

If I recall, there is a combat penalty for a surface TF of more than 15 ships, but I don't know the details of that penalty. Certainly in REAL LIFE, the larger the TF the more unwieldy it becomes, the more chance for confusion and the more chance for blue on blue (friendly) fire incidents (which I've never seen portrayed in this game, but happened all too often in the Pacific theater). But I'm not sure how the game handles it all, maybe others can help here. But then again, this 15 ship penalty might only apply to a Air Combat TF (CV), sorry for the confusion. Maybe I shouldn't chime in when I only muddy the waters!

[Yaab]

15 x CL Brooklyn class in one TF for a rapid-firing mayhem.

[Macclan5]

Good but difficult question.

I assume you refer to "mechanics of the game" or at least partially; i.e. trying to maximize your chance of success.

Very good advice provided by some vets above but in addition: It depends. You have not specified your mission.

More is generally better but...

1) Whats actually available? For the Allies (for example) in January 1942 not so much if the Pearl strike was effective. Latter you have more flexibility

2) Whats the purpose? If bombardment is going to be a function nothing beats a good couple of BBs

3) Whats the opposition ? Un-escorted BBs in a "fish pond" of enemy subs is not a good idea in my experience.

4) Whats the air cover like ? A smaller force of mainly DD and perhaps a CL can often dart in - strike - and leave despite weak air cover and strong air cover opposition. I have seen a squadron of Allied Fletcher DD survive 4 -5 direct air stikes and sail away laughing...

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: gmtello

What Is better for surfave combat 1 tf of 45 ships or 3 of 15 in the same hex . If the enemy use large Tfs or smaller ones Could vary?

From my observations a larger TF is more likely to have collisions between own ships, and if there are over about 10 ships, some of them will never get into the action before the action is broken off (because the first ships engaged are low on ammo. For these reasons I try to keep my SCTFs around 6-9 ships.

CVTFs can have more ships (for AA and ASW coverage) because they are not meant to be in close quarters combat with a maneuvering enemy. 15 Ships in a CVTF is probably a good number.

[crsutton]

If it is a cruiser or BB TF. I try to use them in groups of 7 to 10 for maximum efficiency. Any larger and you will find that quite a few ships do not even fire their guns (at night). This is especially true with large BB TFs at night. DD TFs tend to be smaller for me with five to six ships. I am of the school of thought that it is much better to have multiple smaller TFs in an action rather than one large one. Your first TF might get chewed up a bit but then your follow on TFs are taking on ships that have expended their torpedoes and used up OP points. If the enemy TF has taken damage and there are slowed ships or ships on fire, your follow up TF even if smaller, has a good chance of doing much more damage. (This is especially true if your follow on force has torpedoes) I don't think in ten years of UV, Witp and AE play that I have ever used a surface TF larger than a dozen ships.

[Lowpe]

The answer is that it varies.

Other than the most obvious (the mission for the TF):

Weather, Day, Night, Time frame, potential threats, DLs, commanders, settings, experience, ammunition levels, fuel, deep water or shallow, risk levels all play a part.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

If I recall, there is a combat penalty for a surface TF of more than 15 ships, but I don't know the details of that penalty. Certainly in REAL LIFE, the larger the TF the more unwieldy it becomes, the more chance for confusion and the more chance for blue on blue (friendly) fire incidents (which I've never seen portrayed in this game, but happened all too often in the Pacific theater). But I'm not sure how the game handles it all, maybe others can help here. But then again, this 15 ship penalty might only apply to a Air Combat TF (CV), sorry for the confusion. Maybe I shouldn't chime in when I only muddy the waters!

There are diminishing returns to flak from each ship beyond the 15th, when one ship is attacked. Basically, when a ship is attacked by a plane, up to 14 other ships can assist with their flak at no penalty (if within range, have ammo, etc.). Each ship after the 15th in the TF will not provide "full flak".


Also, larger TFs (especially with poor Naval skill CO's, as are common among ships arriving from the queue) suffer a larger number of collisions.

[Rising-Sun]

I was thinking the better the commander's leadership, etc the more you can control without penalty. But that can be hidden from us, if it does. Also depending on the rank should matter too.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

I was thinking the better the commander's leadership, etc the more you can control without penalty. But that can be hidden from us, if it does. Also depending on the rank should matter too.

Rank is just bling, it doesn't matter except for what size of ship a CO can command.

The relevant skill rating for avoiding collisions is Naval. But you want to pay more attention to individual ship captains for this than the TF commander. I'm not sure the TF commander has anything to do with collisions, but he might. There's just no reason why you wouldn't want a high-Naval TF commander whenever possible.

[RogerJNeilson]

I tend towards a maximum of around 8, and wherever possible the same speed and the same main gunnery calibre. Sometimes you cannot be that choosy and obviously with BBS and CAs you need some Dds or equivalents to protect them. Larger forces seldom get a shot in as has been mentioned. Far better to have several TFs one after the other...

Roger

[rustysi]

TBH, I do my best to avoid surface combat. To me its all about the air.

[walkerd]

Not sure where I read it, but I can recall the advise of not mixing BB and CA, use one or the other. This means as many BB as is feasible and enough escorting DD's. TF composition depends on AA and DC for the DD's and then more often speed for the heavy units.

BB TF's for sinking other enemy surface action TF's. CA's for hunting shipping, covering other TF's and intercepting eney TF when no heavy units are expected.

Was reading one AAR recently suggesting multiple small TF - but this is early in the game. With a BB TF you would be unlikely to have enough to build multiple TF or a super size TF, serious TF's main contain what, 5 or 6 heavy units and then fill the TF with DD's to 12 or 15 at most. DD's are escorts, not comnbat units but I might consider a couple of small 3 - 5 DD TF with the main BB TF to see if they could intercept early and launch Torps or clean up after the main units have duked it out.

[Rising-Sun]

Well I was thinking if you don't have enough screen protection your capitol ships, you are risking it from high speed destroyers with torpedo runs. So make sure you have plenty of escorts equal to capitols or more. Light cruisers can be and should be escort roles too, but not sure how they lay out the protection screens. But it is overall Commander abilities as well Captains too.

[Alpha77]

Depends, as Allies your fleets can be bigger, not only cause you will get (have) more combat ships, but also cause the IJN apparently gets a "coordination" penality with larger fleets. Which probably moddels their inferior radios and electronics. But Allied fleets also will have collision due to too many ships (at night more ofc). Startin in circa mid 43 Allies will have bigger fleets with better exp and collisions will be more rare by then. Check your cue compare ships arriving in 42 and 44 (big difference in exp - only RN ones have good exp from the start)

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

TBH, I do my best to avoid surface combat. To me its all about the air.

Not much in the game is more satisfying (to me) than a good raid or surface interception of an enemy fleet - especially if you can pull off a mid-ocean intercepts...

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Well I was thinking if you don't have enough screen protection your capitol ships, you are risking it from high speed destroyers with torpedo runs. So make sure you have plenty of escorts equal to capitols or more. Light cruisers can be and should be escort roles too, but not sure how they lay out the protection screens. But it is overall Commander abilities as well Captains too.

And speed is a factor. Frankly, old American BBs should avoid night action like the plague. They are just too slow and tend to eat torpedoes. I can speak from hard experience on this matter....[:@]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Depends, as Allies your fleets can be bigger, not only cause you will get (have) more combat ships, but also cause the IJN apparently gets a "coordination" penality with larger fleets. Which probably moddels their inferior radios and electronics. But Allied fleets also will have collision due to too many ships (at night more ofc). Startin in circa mid 43 Allies will have bigger fleets with better exp and collisions will be more rare by then. Check your cue compare ships arriving in 42 and 44 (big difference in exp - only RN ones have good exp from the start)

I have not ever heard this in reference to surface warship TFs. What is your source about the Japanese coordination penalty? I do know that Allied surface ships get a gunnery boost sometime around 1/44 to reflect improved fire detection. JWE was the source of that tidbit.