WitE 2

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Hermann
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Hermann »

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Longer reply:
Air combat: As already mentioned: Imo planes as tank busters are overestimated. Tanks have the protection to resist shrapnels and shockwaves, so you need very heavy bombs or direct hits to kill them. The effect of bombing against soft targets or the transports is a completely different thing. I have not digged deep enough into the air war to comment much on this. Just one more thing: Soldiers reporting that they were scared of planes is a bad indicator. A soldier is probably scared by everything which can kill him. What counts are numbers of destroyed manpower and ressources.

Pockets: IMO the % of personnel escaped should be calculated based on the situation at the time of surrender. If it is a result of a 6 side attack, almost no one will escape. If the pocket is loose and the unit is attacked from one side only, many should escape. But always most equipment should be lost, usually soldiers care more about their life than the artillery.

Fatigue: According to van Crefeld, the German army, also caused by the experience from WW1, was very good at managing fatigue and exhaustion among the troops (unlike for example the americans), especially if one considers they never had real reserves to shuffle around. Not sure about the Soviets. Of course no soldier likes to be on the front and will not be happy to fight. Many got psychologic problems caused by the intense fighting. But this is not of interest here. The only important question is: To what extent was the fighting capability reduced by exhaustion? A mentally ill soldier can still be a good fighter.
The thing is: You can run your car engine for a month with 4000-6000rmp all the time in the first gear and you will suffer a breakdown.
Or you drive in a high gear and you can drive for 10 years. If I got Crefeld right, its the same with soldiers.


Experience: Agree that it is a kind of Sqrt(time) function aka most is gained in the first time.

Officers:
What exactly do you mean with "they (the Germans) diluted their officercorps"?

Manpower: I agree, that the Germans ran dry on manpower. But the Soviets, as far as I know, had similar problems. If the soviets lost to much, they should too have problems to get enough first class recruits.

theres a few errors here. in 41/42 tanks weren't heavy and artillery was a factor, the game doesn't really actually factor in mne damage which was the big threat or at gun damage which was a threat as well. The tanks were very heavily overweight and this was a key in many design decisions such as short guns and THIN ROOF ARMOR. this meant that planes equipped with 20mm cannons were very successful in destroying tanks from above. Germans managed exhaustion with amphetamines and accidents from driver fatigue were frequent. im a bit shocked about your comment on reserves. the combat was intense casualties were enormous and the units exposure to cobat itself n a pitched battle very short - battles were fed by constantly feeding n reinforcements piecemeal from from other formations and leaving the command staff in place for continuity.the examples being far too numerous to cout but there some excellent accounts in the Germany at war series as well as a superb divisional analysis showing that permanent losses were pretty small for the majority of units through much of the war. the key factor in vdeterming casualties is in fact and has been for known history determined by mobility or the ability to ride down ones foes. the game models it nicely in the first winter and casualties are pretty accurate, a units exposure to combat was for the most part minimal and during intense combat even smaller due to force rotation it was only when a unit was overrun that problems arose. that damage factor being determined by the density of the opposing attack, one of the core issues in the game model and I agree with you in this case is the multi front attack if a unit is attacked simultaneously from opposite directions by an INFANTRY unit casualties should be much higher. DEVELOPERS NOTE A pocketed units casualties need to be determined by the presence of infantry as a percentage of the attacking force, the current model is fatally flawed and reflected in the tactics of pelton type strategists such as yourself. a unit forced to surrender by a tank unit should get a higher percentage of troops escaping than one screened by infantry - dramatically so to the point it affects player tactics in a substantial way. it would change the game dynamic in a positive manner
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Hermann »

sorru for the repeat lotta stuff to respond to the Officer corps was diluted prior to war in the east. Reserve officers were brought in from ww1 veterans this worked ok for officers of major and above but junior officers were the key. Geran officers were staff trained to the point that they uniformly came up with nearly the same response to all common problems. that helped commanders in that they knew the basic direction the their subordinates would take and helped the germans to intermingle units and command staffs in a flexible way. as casualties mounted this changed You had the basic officer types Career and reserve. now the germans had to Brevet a higher percentage of officers with no staff training into temporary positions, and use non commissioned officers in the officer roles that's dilution.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

Hi Hermann, I am always willing to discuss such things, but I am not a native speaker so I have troubles to understand the details if the text is written sloppy.
So please try to bring in more structure or write me a PM in German. No disrespect, but it explains possible misunderstandings.

Aircraft vs. Tank: As already mentioned, I am no expert in this field. Comments are based on early war:
A1) Penetrating the tank armour with small projectiles and destroying the tank are different things.
A2) Aircraft density on the Eastern Front was low. Not that many German planes and Soviet ones weren't used efficient.
A3) Hitting a moving tank with a fast flying plane is not easy if the cannons are fixed in frontal direction. If you fly too fast the time window is short, if you fly slow, you are easy prey for the flak.
A4)
planes equipped with 20mm cannons were very successful in destroying tanks
. I would be interested in statistical proof for this. Tank commanders who were scared from planes are not enough IMO.

Fatigue/attrition/morale: I discussed the psychological attrition and the morale decay. The Americans had a lot of troubles with that, Germans less. I don't see what your point/disagreement is here. I did not talk about lethal attrition.

Losses: So you argue for more losses from retreat, less from fighting?

C&C philosophy:
Geran officers were staff trained to the point that they uniformly came up with nearly the same response to all common problems
I am sceptical about this. The German army emphasized the "Auftragstaktik" a lot. As far as I know, the Taylorism-approach of giving clear advice for every situation was more USA or Soviet union stuff. The Wehrmacht demanded from every commander that he is capable of doing the job of a commander who is two ranks higher, do you mean this?

Officer corps dilution: I first used a wrong translation of "dilution", therefore the confusion. I agree here.

Escaped POWs: You suggest, that the percentage of infantry should decide about the number of escaped soldiers. It should be the total number instead.

Pelton tactics: Please explain how the surrender mechanics are connected with Pelton tactics.
I can be happy if I have 5% of the knowledge of Pelton, but I take this as a compliment [:)]
Edit: It is important to emphasize the use of statistics and hard data, not stories, if you simulate something. As far as I know Pelton was/is a data guy (here was a somewhat unfair comment which I deleted, I apologize).

I am impatiently awaiting the last volumes from askey where he will discuss his approaches to Wargaming Barbarossa. I hope that he will do an in detail analysis of the different types of losses for his simulation engine.
Greetings
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Hermann »

Hi Hermann, I am always willing to discuss such things, but I am not a native speaker so I have troubles to understand the details if the text is written sloppy.
So please try to bring in more structure or write me a PM in German. No disrespect, but it explains possible misunderstandings.

Aircraft vs. Tank: As already mentioned, I am no expert in this field. Comments are based on early war:
A1) Penetrating the tank armour with small projectiles and destroying the tank are different things.
A2) Aircraft density on the Eastern Front was low. Not that many German planes and Soviet ones weren't used efficient.
A3) Hitting a moving tank with a fast flying plane is not easy if the cannons are fixed in frontal direction. If you fly too fast the time window is short, if you fly slow, you are easy prey for the flak.
A4)
quote:

planes equipped with 20mm cannons were very successful in destroying tanks
. I would be interested in statistical proof for this. Tank commanders who were scared from planes are not enough IMO.

Fatigue/attrition/morale: I discussed the psychological attrition and the morale decay. The Americans had a lot of troubles with that, Germans less. I don't see what your point/disagreement is here. I did not talk about lethal attrition.

Losses: So you argue for more losses from retreat, less from fighting?

C&C philosophy:
quote:

Geran officers were staff trained to the point that they uniformly came up with nearly the same response to all common problems
I am sceptical about this. The German army emphasized the "Auftragstaktik" a lot. As far as I know, the Taylorism-approach of giving clear advice for every situation was more USA or Soviet union stuff. The Wehrmacht demanded from every commander that he is capable of doing the job of a commander who is two ranks higher, do you mean this?

Officer corps dilution: I first used a wrong translation of "dilution", therefore the confusion. I agree here.

Escaped POWs: You suggest, that the percentage of infantry should decide about the number of escaped soldiers. It should be the total number instead.

Pelton tactics: Please explain how the surrender mechanics are connected with Pelton tactics.
I can be happy if I have 5% of the knowledge of Pelton, but I take this as a compliment
Edit: It is important to emphasize the use of statistics and hard data, not stories, if you simulate something. As far as I know Pelton was/is a data guy (+some uncontrolled aggression).

I am impatiently awaiting the last volumes from askey where he will discuss his approaches to Wargaming Barbarossa. I hope that he will do an in detail analysis of the different types of losses for his simulation engine.
Greetings


< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/30/2017 5:01:26 PM >

First on Pelton - He probably has Asperger's which isn't a bad thing. Symptoms are a lack of empathy, extreme mental focus and usually exceptional intelligence. He cant help his outbursts and doesn't understand why others take offense. give him the respect he deserves and don't judge without considering the impact of autism. I respect him even more for his accomplishments under the disability.

Lets go with tanks vs. aircraft specifically or Aircraft vs. Mech/Mot formations in general. clarify that and we can talk. As you can see I am a fan of Hermann Balck and that case in point is perfectly clear but 1943 is out of our discussion as were talking early war. We can start with Russian tanks first. BT Series and T26 were the main body of the Russian forces the t60 light and t28 and t35 medium. bt7 had 6mm or 1/4 of top armor... ap MG aircraft rounds could easily pierce and 20mm like butter 100kg bombs and 250 easy kill with direct hit which is rare T26 same top armor t35 at 11mm still easy kill for 20mm at any angle harder for mg and t28 at 20mm t34 and kv pretty impossible. German planes were designed for vertical approach as opposed to Russian horizontal bombing and were much more accurate. Armor makes up a small proportion of a mech/mot formation and the remaining assets easy prey so both sides ground attack units were highly effective add to that the lebgth of the military columns and the poor road net and soft terrain forcing units to stay on roads and expose themselves. now we hit command and control. the Russians to a great extent and the germans a minor relied on visual signals early war to maneuver tank formations. Germans had radio but only the Russian tank commanders did. so bombing and forcing units to button up destroyed unit cohesion and resulted in higher collateral losses. some weapons have a far great indirect effect.
dilution means that German staff trained officers could perform the job of a rank 2 higher. as the war progressed the staff trained officers were diluted and replaced with officers that had trouble transitioning to higher command.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

Please try and keep this thread on topic which is about WitE2 and not the diagnosis of former forum members mental health.

So leading by example this post by Joel on the Steam WitE forum may be of interest.



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RE: WitE 2

Post by Platypus »

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Longer reply:
Air combat: As already mentioned: Imo planes as tank busters are overestimated. Tanks have the protection to resist shrapnels and shockwaves, so you need very heavy bombs or direct hits to kill them. The effect of bombing against soft targets or the transports is a completely different thing. I have not digged deep enough into the air war to comment much on this. Just one more thing: Soldiers reporting that they were scared of planes is a bad indicator. A soldier is probably scared by everything which can kill him. What counts are numbers of destroyed manpower and ressources.

### SNIP ###

A little off topic - but still relevant to WitE2 content....

Here are historical reports about a Luftwaffe commander Hans Uhlrich Rudel.
He flew over 2,500 sorties on the East Front, with claims of over 500 AFV kills.
This was in the Video footage of JU-87 G in actionJU-87 G model with the slow-firing twin 37mm anti-armour cannons.

Perhaps Rudel's unit SG 2 should be included in the ORBAT for WitE 2.

Sources:

Amazing Stuka Facts

Video footage - JU-87 G in action

Hans Rudel - Eagle of the Eastern Front
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

StG2 is in WitE2 with all their insignia less 10.(PzJ)/StG2.

If you know which element Rudel was in then he can even be added as a named pilot.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Denniss »

According to Wiki he started Barbarossa in 1./StG 2 which was part of I./StG 2
WitE dev team - (aircraft data)
WitE 1.08+ dev team (data/scenario maintainer)
WitW dev team (aircraft data, partial data/scenario maintainer)
WitE2 dev team (aircraft data)
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Hermann »

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Platypus »

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

StG2 is in WitE2 with all their insignia less 10.(PzJ)/StG2.

If you know which element Rudel was in then he can even be added as a named pilot.

As per the earlier references [Eagle..], Rudel finished the war as a Colonel [Oberst] and CO of the StG2 squadron.
He continued flying following a below knee amputation of his right leg.

@ Red Lancer: I am interested in how you include individual leaders like this into the gameplay?
Example: Does he, as the CO add substantial morale to his unit, or are the combat modifiers adjusted in other ways. Most importantly, how do you still ensure game balance??

The Soviets also had soldiers and pilots with impressive combat records.
One of these was fighter Ace, Ivan Kozhedub, who finished the war as a Soviet Marshal.
In July 1944, he was posted to the 1st Belorussian Front as vice commander to the 176th Guards Fighter Regiment, and received La-7 No. 27, in which he scored his final 17 victories.
Marshal Kozhedub was rated as the highest Allied pilot ace of WW II.

Source:Soviet air Ace - Ivan Kozhedub
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Platypus »

ORIGINAL: Hermann

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots

Good analysis Hermann.
I have researched the topic "Railways in War" for a long time too.
Many other computer war simulations continually ignore these vital Logistics elements.
Rail, road, tracks [like Kokoda] canal and river vessels, coastal freighters, airfields and intermodal points [those vital junctions where these elements meet].
IIRC Gary & his team are the only programmers to include plausible logistics in gameplay.

The question now is whether your proposal can be easily added and balanced within the future WitE 2 engine.
I would like to see this realism added too.

Here is a great primer:The Rise of Rail-Power in War and Conquest - by Edwin Pratt
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Hermann »

I've been spamming history forums for eons - the economics thread on axis history was my brainchild and took a substantial donation to implement. I love the whole economic warfare element and would love to see the rhg commands brought into play more effectively. depots and repair facilities were an enormous part of strategy, I think studying the strategic air war and doing a reverse analysis is helpful. canals are a great economic tool along with river shipping but not really applicable to the game they mainly moved bulk goods like coal and agricultural products not troops. a rail line has a capacity of how much weight per track section that's quickly eroded with frequent use rail cars averaged 29 tons and trains about 400 tons. the daily needs of a German division were 200 to 400 tons average for medium duty, putting 40 to 60 divisions at the end of a single rail line would require 12 to 18000 tons a day or roughly 30 to 45 fully loaded trains daily in each direction for 60 to 90 trains total. trains don't make the whole trip. they did roughly 40 mph so assume 400 miles for a 10 hour day, the train then needs to be unloaded and serviced so roughly 3 trains per day per 400 mile section 1 enroute 1 reloading and 1 returning.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=spe ... &FORM=VIRE

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=203286
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RE: WitE 2

Post by atheory »

I am actually curious if the dev team could use an extra set of eyes. I have a lot of free time on my hands until Winter and can easily do testing or other mundane/tedious tasks. Anything to help the project.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

ORIGINAL: Hermann

my argument is the same as always. Supply. Rail is the only way to carry supply and rail lines have a capacity. unlimited supply to a point at the end of a rail line has to stop to avoid the insanity of 30-40 panzer divisions fully supplied at the end of 1000 mile line rail line with 2 tracks. a system of depot counters is the best option with supply actually traveling to the counters and a real capacity in the depots


WitE2 uses an improved version of the WitW logistics system. Freight movement is tracked along rails and competes with unit movement. Congestion imposes higher costs although the new double rail lines provide higher capacity. Depot capacity is also variable. The Panzer Ball is no longer a good tactic and major advances have to exploit good communications.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by RedLancer »

ORIGINAL: Platypus

@ Red Lancer: I am interested in how you include individual leaders like this into the gameplay?
Example: Does he, as the CO add substantial morale to his unit, or are the combat modifiers adjusted in other ways. Most importantly, how do you still ensure game balance??

We are able to add him as we added named pilots in WitW alongside Commanders. Leadership rolls only effect HQ Commanders at Fliegerkorps and above so Rudel would need to be added as a pilot. That is simple and I did it in less time than it took to do this post. I've added him as a very skilled pilot so he'll be pretty good. Balance is achieved using knowledge of how the system behaves and a lot of testing. This is one reason why developing these games takes so long.

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RE: WitE 2

Post by NPichler »

+1 Platypus and Hermann.

Guess I have some reading to do.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Platypus »

ORIGINAL: Hermann

I've been spamming history forums for eons - the economics thread on axis history was my brainchild and took a substantial donation to implement. I love the whole economic warfare element and would love to see the rhg commands brought into play more effectively. depots and repair facilities were an enormous part of strategy, I think studying the strategic air war and doing a reverse analysis is helpful. canals are a great economic tool along with river shipping but not really applicable to the game they mainly moved bulk goods like coal and agricultural products not troops. a rail line has a capacity of how much weight per track section that's quickly eroded with frequent use rail cars averaged 29 tons and trains about 400 tons. the daily needs of a German division were 200 to 400 tons average for medium duty, putting 40 to 60 divisions at the end of a single rail line would require 12 to 18000 tons a day or roughly 30 to 45 fully loaded trains daily in each direction for 60 to 90 trains total. trains don't make the whole trip. they did roughly 40 mph so assume 400 miles for a 10 hour day, the train then needs to be unloaded and serviced so roughly 3 trains per day per 400 mile section 1 enroute 1 reloading and 1 returning.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=spe ... &FORM=VIRE

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=203286

Hey Hermann -- correct.
The canals and rivers enabled the movement of bulk materials like raw materials, food and fuel [coal].
Let us not forget though, how it was the barges and river vessels that brought reinforcements, including food, medical supplies, fuel and ammunition to Stalingrad during the siege, whilst taking off wounded and other casualties.
Lake Ladoga is another example of a riverine/lake road that ensured survival of the Leningrad residents.

As you state, railways ensured that frontline units had supplies IN and wounded + damaged materiel OUT.
Nice job, enjoyed seeing the references you supplied - never seen these images before.
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Platypus »

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
ORIGINAL: Platypus

@ Red Lancer: I am interested in how you include individual leaders like this into the gameplay?
Example: Does he, as the CO add substantial morale to his unit, or are the combat modifiers adjusted in other ways. Most importantly, how do you still ensure game balance??

We are able to add him as we added named pilots in WitW alongside Commanders. Leadership rolls only effect HQ Commanders at Fliegerkorps and above so Rudel would need to be added as a pilot. That is simple and I did it in less time than it took to do this post. I've added him as a very skilled pilot so he'll be pretty good. Balance is achieved using knowledge of how the system behaves and a lot of testing. This is one reason why developing these games takes so long.

Image

Strike me Pink -- you guys have really stitched up the entire game parameters = from individual pilot/soldier to Army Commander. No wonder that it takes so long to code....
Well done!
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RE: WitE 2

Post by Platypus »

ORIGINAL: NPichler

+1 Platypus and Hermann.

Guess I have some reading to do.

As we all continue to do so.
Dum vivo Disco = While I live I learn!
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RE: WitE 2

Post by HermanGraf »

When we getting the entire war? [&o]
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