red winter offensive

[cpt flam]

part of mistake on my part
from 6/41 to 8/41 24 CP as you are
9/41 to 3/42 will be 21 CP and after you fall to 18 CP
hope this will help you

[Gabriel B.]

MD did not do operations either , but it's not posible to respect historical orbat without fighting at a major disadvantage .

For instance Western front in early january had 10 armies and 90 division equivalents , that would put it 100 comand points over
command limit in game terms.
Also the administrative cost of reasigning armies from one front to another is rather high.
I accept the fact ,that i am going to be overloaded in the first year no matter what, (soviet command and control took longer to adapt and overcome ) and build up my fronts with the 81 Cp limit in mind, that gives room for 4 combined arms armies plus 1 air army.

[charlie0311]

thx gab,

my taste doesn't matter. i'm just searching for the best way to stop the german juggernaut. I haven't found the reason for using the using combined arms armies. You say?

I'm looking to do some real damage, first winter. Since shock and guard have been emasculated that leaves, i guess, just a kind of "everywhere" offensive.

How long does 1-1 count as 2-1?

charlie

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: morvael

No bonus to morale from Shock and Guards. Only +1 Admin.

LOL... I was about to comment on that fact, but you beat me to it.

Like many of the comments posted on this forum by the "experts" regarding this game... their opinions are tainted by out of date patch "experience".

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Admin rolls help with (air-related admin rolls not included):
a) armament cost of generic supply conversion to ammo
b) Soviet ammo loss
c) getting more supply under beachhead supply
d) truck needs
e) movement points
f) combat value in blizzard (German only)
g) fort construction
h) supply consumption
i) repairing damaged elements
j) reducing chance for element damage when moving
k) reassigning units to other HQs at lower AP cost

Doesn't help with reserve activation though (aside from the fact that unit with more MP can react in greater range).

In other words.. a bunch of irrelevent crap that has no where near the impact on combat outcome that the morale bonus did... i.e. it was just another nerf making the Shock Armies no different than the others..

I agree with charlie0311 about the Shock Armies.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

i had been planning to cultivate guards and use them in the shock armies. I can put that theory to rest now.

You can forget cultivating Guards units now because Morvael "fixed" the broken code that was crediting double wins to the Russians without making any adjustments to the number of wins required for unit status, so now it is twice as hard to develop them. If the German player is careful about not yielding cheap "wins", he can thwart Guard development.

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

thx gab,

my taste doesn't matter. i'm just searching for the best way to stop the german juggernaut. I haven't found the reason for using the using combined arms armies. You say?

I'm looking to do some real damage, first winter. Since shock and guard have been emasculated that leaves, i guess, just a kind of "everywhere" offensive.

How long does 1-1 count as 2-1?

charlie

LOL... I understand your puzzlement. The problem does not lie with your understanding of history. The problem is that the game designers did not provide you with many game resources to oppose the German forces until late 42 at the earliest, and some that they did provide were subsequently nerfed. As the Russian, you can't afford to fight forward until late 42. If you do, you will get run over.

As for the 1:1>2:1 rule, I think it ends in 42 ?

[charlie0311]

v.11 random weather..no locked hq..no FOW...no reduced blizzard...YES, normal for options.

axis winter line vs ai.

diagonal from the "c" city in the north, east of all that swamp, to the "c" city about 10 hexes east of moscow, then south to rostov. a solid line of level 3 FZ. You can get to level 3 by pushing east of this line and then using a regimental screen of armor, mot, the inf scheduled for early withdraw, the rum armor, maybe a little more. The screen aids the digging. two pioneers per corp hq.

then the big (ai) attack. 4 attacks all winter, 2 successful, i lost 1 hex (ONE !!!!).

Moravel, sorry i misspelled, are you listening? Competent opponent, random weather, FOW, gonna get the same thing, just not as far in.

Gamorex, you're the one who is right.

charlie

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: morvael

No bonus to morale from Shock and Guards. Only +1 Admin.

LOL... I was about to comment on that fact, but you beat me to it.

Like many of the comments posted on this forum by the "experts" regarding this game... their opinions are tainted by out of date patch "experience".

Hi

no, I don't claim to be an expert and do indeed make mistakes and misunderstand things. This was one of them.

However, despite learning (& as of now trying to master the German side), my experience of the game is very different to yours.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with everyone else, or extrapolating from your experience to assume that is 'how it is', however, as with views on Pelton, what I don't have much time for is being deliberatly rude. You accuse people who manage to get different outcomes to you as cheating, when it maybe they have found a way to use the game tools that you are missing.

Issues of judgement, such as when to build tank corps, how best to use them ... you have your opinion, others have theirs - but if you hear something you disagree with, it may *just* be an idea to stop and think why they are suggesting that?

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

thx gab,

my taste doesn't matter. i'm just searching for the best way to stop the german juggernaut. I haven't found the reason for using the using combined arms armies. You say?

I'm looking to do some real damage, first winter. Since shock and guard have been emasculated that leaves, i guess, just a kind of "everywhere" offensive.

How long does 1-1 count as 2-1?

charlie

LOL... I understand your puzzlement. The problem does not lie with your understanding of history. The problem is that the game designers did not provide you with many game resources to oppose the German forces until late 42 at the earliest, and some that they did provide were subsequently nerfed. As the Russian, you can't afford to fight forward until late 42. If you do, you will get run over.

As for the 1:1>2:1 rule, I think it ends in 42 ?

2-1 rule goes at the end of Jan 42, of course the ability to maximise the actual odds via mass attacks is for the entire game, so you can still deliver counterblows with a shown CV of around 1-1 after that date.

as to your comment re shock armies, even if the only advantage was the higher likelihood of higher MPs, that counts for a lot, esp when Soviet infantry morale is in the mid-40s.

I'll pass on the advice you have had plentifully, play the axis side, it will improve your understanding of how chucking small bits of grit into the Wehrmacht juggernaut can make a daunting task suddenly seen beyond attainment.

[charlie0311]

thx everyone, for all the responses.

It might be interesting to have the computer decide what the winter effects would be. Might start just horrible or could be catastrophic. Might change every 2 weeks or so, for better or even worse.

IMO, the winter should affect the germans a lot more than the russkies.

charlie

[GamesaurusRex]

@loki100: BROTHER WARGAMER LOKI !

I have no intention of insulting or demeaning you or anyone else here. All my comments are just my opinion and assessment regarding the game. If they have been stated in a way that has bruised your sensibilities, then I offer you my sincerest apologies.

If you read my other posts, you will find that I have clearly stated that I have not yet played the German side and do not know any hidden weak spots they may have yet. However, what I do have is the luxury of playing against Wheat, an opponent that I know very well and who I am completely convinced is capable of playing the German side to it's fullest potential. I am also certain that he and I are well matched opponents who have routinely beaten each other in a wide variety of games since 1968. What this tells me is that if he and I switch sides and he instructs me in his methods, he will be dealing with the same issues in this game's mechanics that I am seeing from the Russian side.

Now you may know a secret about "small bits of grit", but I seriously doubt that something like that would have any effect upon the 41-42 relative combat value, movement rate, and morale differentials I have seen firsthand in my game with Wheat under patch .11 .

[randallw]

With anything close to normal results 1941 is a good year for the Axis side; this will be very unfun for the Soviet player, again and again.

It is possible for 1941 to go well enough that the Axis side has the advantage most of the rest of the way, causing the Soviet player to simply surrender in late 1942, or the Axis side grabs the victory point conditions in 1943.

Something less than a great 1941 for the Axis means there a considerable chance the game ends in a draw, or some level of Soviet victory.

If you play the Soviet side again and again, without getting into 1942 or 1943 you won't see the large toys available to fight with, mainly rifle, tank, and mech corps, along with artillery divisions. It also takes some time for the Soviet OOB to become the large megasaurus, recovering from the heaps of troops lost in 1941. The un-fun for the Axis doesn't happen in large amounts until late 1943 or beyond that.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

v.11 random weather..no locked hq..no FOW...no reduced blizzard...YES, normal for options.

axis winter line vs ai.

diagonal from the "c" city in the north, east of all that swamp, to the "c" city about 10 hexes east of moscow, then south to rostov. a solid line of level 3 FZ. You can get to level 3 by pushing east of this line and then using a regimental screen of armor, mot, the inf scheduled for early withdraw, the rum armor, maybe a little more. The screen aids the digging. two pioneers per corp hq.

then the big (ai) attack. 4 attacks all winter, 2 successful, i lost 1 hex (ONE !!!!).

Moravel, sorry i misspelled, are you listening? Competent opponent, random weather, FOW, gonna get the same thing, just not as far in.

Gamorex, you're the one who is right.

charlie

several points ;


If you go disbanding all but 36 german corps (3/army ) you will have 2 pioneers per AK
but the PzAK would not have any.

The AI does not build engineer assets , a human oponent will have 156 sapper
regiments come winter to reduce your fortifications .

By the time you entrech to level 3, the soviet side would rail his demoralised units in the rear and bring them back to national morale .

Do not try this against a human oponent , it wil burn trough your forts and insert tanks and cavalry in your rear .

[loki100]

Just to back up Gabriel B.

Be very cautious about extrapolating from AI experience to face to face. Now I think WiTE has a pretty good AI and you can use the settings to get to a nice balance point. From experience with the Soviet side (I'm just dipping a toe into the murky water on the opposite side), I think the German operational AI is good (perhaps a wee bit too aggressive, but it does pockets, it shift to a good strategic defense in 43 etc), the strategic less so (it tends not to move Pzrs out of AGN for 42, so 42 becomes a broad front offensive that you can stop much too easy) and tactically it attacks too much.

This has implications - first yes it makes lots of pockets but it routs you out of them. So you never hit the armament problem of re-equipping the returning shells. That makes a huge difference in turn to your production of SUs in late 41 - early 42.

Second, the constant attacks keep up the pressure, but you get lots of early Guards, in my current AI game I even have a Gds Army by Spring 42. So its easy to make Gds Rifle Corps very early on and sprinkle these where you need them - helped of course that the German AI is doing a broad front offensive. Again against a human, you'll struggle to get many Gds Rifle Corps in the first wave of conversion, so your standard corps will be a rifle OOB.

In other words, you can have a damn good game against the AI, use the settings to make it a real challenge, but there are key aspects to how an AI game will play out that are different to PBEM (speaking purely on experience on the Soviet side but its inevitable there are equally important differences the other way around).

[GamesaurusRex]

ORIGINAL: randallw

With anything close to normal results 1941 is a good year for the Axis side; this will be very unfun for the Soviet player, again and again.

It is possible for 1941 to go well enough that the Axis side has the advantage most of the rest of the way, causing the Soviet player to simply surrender in late 1942, or the Axis side grabs the victory point conditions in 1943.

Something less than a great 1941 for the Axis means there a considerable chance the game ends in a draw, or some level of Soviet victory.

If you play the Soviet side again and again, without getting into 1942 or 1943 you won't see the large toys available to fight with, mainly rifle, tank, and mech corps, along with artillery divisions. It also takes some time for the Soviet OOB to become the large megasaurus, recovering from the heaps of troops lost in 1941. The un-fun for the Axis doesn't happen in large amounts until late 1943 or beyond that.

That is how it should be in an accurate "War In The East" simulation... and so far so good, in general. My only criticism is that the game mechanics do not foster a forward defense by the Russian side. Doing so is fatal for the Russian and it shouldn't be. This is not to say that Germans should be prevented from advancing rapidly in 41-42... it would just be more satisfying if the game was balanced in such a way that the Russians had more troops available to lose in the early stage of the game, such that they could afford a forward defense. As it is now, if the Russian commits forward, it equals front armies crushed and surrounded, Russian collapse... game over... German ski resorts in the Urals in 1943.

[charlie0311]

really cool that you guys continue to post. I'm lovin' it!

So the ai doesn't make sappers, no wonder.

A few minor pts. 1) the fort line stopped at the "lake" n of moscow. 2) Didn't disband anything. 3) level 3FZs line was a ready to go, 1st blizzard turn, well maybe a few still at 2.

Will have to rethink my axis winter deployments as I desire to play v human at the highest level. Did I just really say that? Something way wrong with the charlie bird.

Looks like I'll be setting Stravka up to take all the extra stuff, seems kinda wierd, but I'm a do what it takes type.

Any inputs yet on beta.14?

charlie

[Gabriel B.]

the soviets get 56 armies and eventualy 14 fronts, but until they do some temporary solutions must be used .

each front arieves with just enough CP to reasign 4 armies and a air command but it's
better to reasign the armies for free, and use the admin points to build stuff.

[charlie0311]

thx gab,

all for now

charlie