Price

[Sarkus]

As another wargamer who started with boards, I have to say that price does impact my decisions on what to buy and as a result there are some Matrix titles that I would have bought at a lower price. The price point for this game isn't really an issue for me, though given that you have to own the previous title to play it, that is a pretty high barrier to entry for someone new to the hobby. What high prices do is take someone who might buy a game on a whim and make them really reconsider it, and that is where new gamers come from. I've never purchased the WitP titles for the simple reason that I don't know if I'd like it and thereforce can't justify that price. On the other hand, I'll probably pay a high price for the Russia game from Grigsby and co. because I played previous games in the series and know what I'm getting.

I don't know for sure if across the board cheaper prices would make the genre bigger or not, but I do know that most of the "big" computer wargames in recent years have been priced at $50 or less.

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

Sure, once you are "in the fold" as a grog, price matters--there are a lot of cool games here I don't own because I'm not made of money. So lower prices might indeed improve sales, but only within the population of people already committed to playing wargames. That's not really expanding revenue, it's just spreading it around differently. But sure, I'd love to see cheaper games, just not at the expense of people being able to actually make them. I rather doubt that even Australians would deliberately overcharge just to see us squirm--I suspect the pricing is determined fairly rationally.

ORIGINAL: Sarkus

As another wargamer who started with boards, I have to say that price does impact my decisions on what to buy and as a result there are some Matrix titles that I would have bought at a lower price. The price point for this game isn't really an issue for me, though given that you have to own the previous title to play it, that is a pretty high barrier to entry for someone new to the hobby. What high prices do is take someone who might buy a game on a whim and make them really reconsider it, and that is where new gamers come from. I've never purchased the WitP titles for the simple reason that I don't know if I'd like it and thereforce can't justify that price. On the other hand, I'll probably pay a high price for the Russia game from Grigsby and co. because I played previous games in the series and know what I'm getting.

I don't know for sure if across the board cheaper prices would make the genre bigger or not, but I do know that most of the "big" computer wargames in recent years have been priced at $50 or less.

[Rosseau]

Many intelligent and incisive comments here. I am looking forward to buying the Panther Bulge game, Storm over the Pacific, and the East front opus. I already have all other SSG games and love them. But when I can get Bulge or SotP for $10 more than AtD, I just can't justify the latter.

[V22 Osprey]

The best gaming system in the world is nothing to me if it only last a few hours, especially if there are other systems almost as good that offer many more scenarios and a Battle Generator with full editors for the same price.

I get games where I shelf a game because I'm tired of playing the game system, NOT because the game ran out of content.

Because of that, I don't think I can pull the trigger on any SSG game. Since there is no demo, I truly can't tell if the game system is THAT GOOD that the system itself can make up for the lack of content.

I think SSG should do the HPS approach. Like if they made easy-to-use editors like John Tiller's games and offered smaller scenarios that cover specific actions of the battle, including Hypothetical situations.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

Judge; I remember when you bought this game, I was watching you closely to see when you would throw in the towel. You came back with nothing but praises for it. That's when I thought I had better get this when more scenarios came out. [:D]

I was fully expectant to regret my purchase. I had recently been burned with Carriers at War from SSG. With CaW I simply thought the gaming was too simplistic and there wasn't enough content. I had also bought (many years ago) Korsun Pocket and dropped it like a brick inside of an hour...I simply couldn't get into it. I was then shrugging my shoulders when I heard Kharkov had one scenario...there was no way I was buying it. Then I saw the price and it reinforced my decision not to buy it.

I can't remember what happened...who it was that was talking about the game, but I got interested in the AOs (Areas of Operation). I then started reading and realised these were elements that would make the game replayable. I took the plunge. It was a risky plunge as I had already experienced two games from the company and didn't enjoy them and this game was going to cost more than £50!

When I got it, I decided to learn it through the tutorials and it just clicked. The game engine. The graphics. The sounds. Everything was just right. I'm going to get back into it now AtD2 is released and buy AtD2 next month

But it's each to their own...I wouldn't pay the money for WitP:AE because a) I think it's too expensive and b) I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy the depth. Uncommon Valor is enough of that system to keep me busy.

I just like the look and feel of the SSG games now. I think AtD2 will be worth the cash. Many other people will disagree.

Personally, I think Matrix should NOT have made it an add on...it's just too much money for a new gamer (and even more seasoned SSG gamers) to layout on the original game and the AtD2 expansion. Personally I think it will hurt their sales and the only people likely to buy AtD2 are people like me who already have Kharkov and die hards of the battle...and even they are going to be a tough ask. But I expect Matrix know the potential sales market better than my gut instinct.

I'm looking forward to it [&o]

[LarryP]

I also have Korsun Pocket. I too dropped it but it took me a while longer than one week. I also bought the Dnepr add on for Korsun but it was inexpensive. Then I bought BiN and BiI. Good games. Also bought Battlefront which needed the AI of Kharkov.

Like you said, getting into the series now requires buying both games, and it now being an expansion requiring the original, can't do it. It's $90 for the download only. My gosh, well over $100 for the physicals.

[ComradeP]

I think SSG should do the HPS approach. Like if they made easy-to-use editors like John Tiller's games and offered smaller scenarios that cover specific actions of the battle, including Hypothetical situations.

For starters: the interface in SSG games and the editor is more user friendly than the interface of a HPS Panzer Campaigns title. Splitting up a scenario makes sense if you insist to create a game where you play major battles on a battalion scale and have thousands of counters as a result, but it doesn't make much sense if the game has about a 1000 units or around 500.

Personally, I'm not inclined to buy any HPS PzC game as I really don't see the need to play a battle at battalion scale if you can cut the units by about 1/3 by using a regimental scale. There are obviously a lot of people who enjoy that, but I'm not one of them. To each his own.

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I think SSG should do the HPS approach. Like if they made easy-to-use editors like John Tiller's games and offered smaller scenarios that cover specific actions of the battle, including Hypothetical situations.

For starters: the interface in SSG games and the editor is more user friendly than the interface of a HPS Panzer Campaigns title. Splitting up a scenario makes sense if you insist to create a game where you play major battles on a battalion scale and have thousands of counters as a result, but it doesn't make much sense if the game has about a 1000 units or around 500.

Personally, I'm not inclined to buy any HPS PzC game as I really don't see the need to play a battle at battalion scale if you can cut the units by about 1/3 by using a regimental scale. There are obviously a lot of people who enjoy that, but I'm not one of them. To each his own.

For Starters: I've used the SSG games and editors and let me to you they aren't best interface around. The John Tiller interface is WAY easier to get than any SSG game. I couldn't even find any documentation on using the editor. You say "more user friendly" but that is certainly not what I've seen personally and not what I've heard from other people. Plus, I never said anything about being "inclined" to buy anything. My point is that HPS isn't a large company at all either, and if they can provide 30+ scenarios per title SSG certainly can.

[e_barkmann]

Games that include extraordinary amounts of scenarios are normally supplied by third party user enthusiasts; it's the only way to get the numbers up.

ATD II was designed by Ian Trout, game engine adjustments were made by Roger Keating, and the game was playtested by both over a couple of years and further adjustments made along the way.  This kind of brain bank is hard to replicate with user designed scenarios. 

The editor does come with documentation and there are separate tutorials for both AOs and the AI.  I would agree there is a learning curve to the editor but then again, you are not likely to produce 'cookie cutter' scenarios when you're dealing with hand painted maps, an AI that gives a good game and the ability to simulate just about any WWII conflict accurately.

cheers Chris

 

[Tempest_slith]

A game's value is measured by how low the cost/total hours played winds up. Any fan of the Kharkov engine will put in so many hours of play time with ATD2 that, even at $40, this ratio will approach zero.

I played non-stop games during playtest with Roger for months and it's never gotten old. And that was only playing the Soviet side, so, with the different tactics and style required, playing the Axis will be like having a similiar but different new game.

[tide1527]

The HPS Panzer Campaigns do have alot of scenarios but for the most part it's two people making the scenarios for each game. You will see three or four people listed as scenario developers but only two work on the majority for each game. I suppose SSG could do that but it seems they want to leave it up to the gamers to make scenarios.

[V22 Osprey]

Well I may eventually take the plunge and get one of these games. 2 months allowance for 1 scenario[X(].....tough to swallow but I think I will give it try. If it changed Judge Dredd's mind then it can't be bad.With you guys defending the game so much I thinks it's worth a look....though that is expected if you criticize a game in it's own forum.[:'(]

[tide1527]

Dredd is a hard sell. we have both seen his posts in the past [;)] Cash is always an issue but if you think you might like the game in the future go for it. I played around with it last night and for a couple of hours today and it is as good as claimed.

[LarryP]

How does it compare to Battlefront? I know, bad comparison but it's the closest game I have to it.

[Fred98]

Well its something like comparing Excel 1998 with Excel 2003

They look and feel much the same except once you migrate to Excel 2003 you will not go back to Excel 1998

-

[parusski]

Thanks hartwig.modrow. I am afraid my tirade shows too little logical structure. In 10 years I have posted less than 400 times. The main reason for so few posts is I don't get into the odd shouting matches and I try to point out the good about Matrix. For me WITP was a complete, utter waste of time. But it was an investment. We are discussing pc games here, not cars or new houses. I DO UNDERSTAND individual money issues, mainly where the wife is concerned. Surely there are enough people in the states who want and can afford the ATD add-on. As for Europe, well your European Union in its infinite wisdom has the great VAT. It can make ATD a little more pricey, but for those who can afford it why not buy it. ATD was a great game, I still play the original.

JudgeDredd you stole my brilliant argument about cost per hour of fun. Great point. I just recently threw $35US into the gutter with the purchase of the Blu-ray version of The Wolfman. That's 2 hours viewing, so $10 bucks an hour to be bored. If I get drunk and watch it again someday, then my price per entertainment hour falls to $5.00. WOW, what a bargain, wait I forgot the cost of the liquor I would need to actually watch the movie again. I digress. Many, many hours of fun will be had for a price ranging from $40US to about £48 in the UK. Your cost per hour of pleasure will surely be lower than my cost per hour of torture watching that stupid movie(I'll let you know how I feel about later).

Before anyone jumps down my throat that they are not in a financial position to buy the game, well guess what. I can't afford something I want. I do not have the means to buy a Sea Ray 580 Sundancer yacht. So I plan to raise hell on Sea Ray's website about the price. Just a couple years ago I agonized over every single game released. I had to make important decisions to spend just $30. Luckily things have gotten somewhat better over the last few years. So please don't imply that if I can afford the game I do not understand your anguish if you can't. If you can't buy it, and want it, then wait, save, whatever. Or do what I am doing about my yacht-do without.

[Adam Parker]

First Off:

The promise of the discount in 2008 is not a contract unless people can prove they bought Kharkov on the belief that would be getting ATD2 there and then.


Second Off:

LOL that Husky appears to be corrupted! It was the only thing I managed to test for SSG in the ATD2 release and it was working fine. Do wait for it to be fixed guys - it's a great improvement on the scenario from Battles In Italy. Hugely enjoyable. I regret not being able to test anything further for SSG.


Third Off:

Norton won't let me update Kharkov - it thinks that Matrix is a hugely suspect security risk. And I tend to agree with them [:D][;)][:D]

Ease up guys - it's a cheap new game that works... will work... just enjoy.


PS: I hope that Troutie has recovered well and fully mended up! Man I'm full of tpyos today [:'(]

[V22 Osprey]

Argh, this same debate happens EVERY time a new SSG game comes out. It would be easier if they would just add in a few extra scenarios and call it a day.[:'(]

[JudgeDredd]

Word of warning to any people here - I know that I am generally thought of as a "hard sell" and that "if Judge likes the game, it's got to be worth a punt"...but two things if I may...

1. I have a relatively comfortable disposable income - I wouldn't necessarily class myself as a hard sell because I'm a gaming ho...I love new stuff. But the trick is to see what I say two weeks down the road...if I'm still playing it and still like it, then two weeks into the purchase is where you'll find the answer
2. With point 1 in mind, remember we're all different. I didn't "get" Korsun Pocket. Chucked it after an hour. Somehow (maybe it was just extra money that month) someone persuaded me to buy Kharkov. I remember saying "Ok - I'll take the plunge - but if I don't find what your telling me or if I don't "get" it, it's the last game I buy from SSG"...and I bought it and "got" it. But that doesn't mean that kind of turn around is going to happen to anyone else....

Just a word of caution - everyones opinions will differ. I understand how much the gaming dollar means to people.

I can only give my own personal views. My initial views are generally like most peoples "WOW...Shiny New". Two weeks down the road is when you would get my true impressions. I'm generally not posting about the game then...I'm either playing it or I've moved on. If anyone really wanted to know what I thought about a game that I bought and I'm not posting on the forums...pm me and I'll tell you honestly what I think of it.

I still say Kharkov is a great game. I played some last night and it brought the memories flooding back of some desperate defending and hole plugging.

[Hexagon]

Well, many people talk about relation between price and game hours, well, i see it correct but not all because for me are another little but very important point... custom scenarios, here i can say that from Battlefront to Kharkov SSG start a decline in the number of custom scens, very few but very interesting and good "amateur" jobs (i only have Kharkov but know people who have other SSG games) but this is not the only problem, you talk about HPS games and i have many of their games (NAP, PzC, MC, EAB) and the number of scens compared with SSG is like compare a P-51 (one of the best planes in WW2) with a Mig-21 (not the best plane but superior to P-51), for me Kharkov is a good game but is only one scen, you can add many variants but the scale prevents an important part of replay value of the game, move troops at lower scale in a bigger map have more options and situations.

I see SSG games interesting games, i like it (not all features like the step system or the direct use of artillery because as a friend says is better the BiN or BiI system) but find that their replay value depends of scen creator comunity and now this is smaller and many interesting scens are missing (i know that for all previous games at regimental scale are a version of the Bulge scen that was a free game but for Kharkov is MIA).

What i want say??? price to high for games where their "life" depend of modders and compare with for example HPS games the price and number of scens is... well, you know, of course, HPS games arent perfect, i want buy it by DD and have a map editor but even with all this problems i pay 24-26 euros for a HPS game in a CD box, have one battle/campaign but lots of scens.

PD: if i buy AtD2 could be in a matrix holidays sale i do it with Kharkov (buy it in Cristhmas) and can do again with AtD2, one thing is like something and another very different is pay a price that i consider excesive, i have the money to buy now AtD2 but in wargames world are more options and cheaper (waiting FoG SoA add-on) [:D]