Helicopters in FPC

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Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

There has been some discussion about how helicopters are modeled in FPC.

I thought they deserved their own thread.

So, here we are.

First, it was mentioned that helicopters seem to be armored vehicles because they are so hard to bring down and references were made to examples in Iraq about how much damage can be done to helicopters from ground units.

Helicopters in FPC aren't tough to bring down because they are armored. They are tough to bring down because they are hard to hit. The example of combat in Iraq, for me, has no validity, the terrain in NWE and the Middle East doesn't compare. In NWE there are literally millions of places for a helicopter to hide. It's not a matter of not being able to shoot one down. It's a matter of seeing him before he kills you with weaponry that is designed to fire at over 4km.

As to the issue of Hinds being super equipment. A part of that is my scenario design. In actual fact, the battlefield would be flooded with Soviet helicopters and there would be a major part of every engagement just dealing with anti-helicopter combat. The missing NATO ADA units would be very evident.

Apparently, the fact that NATO had very weak ADA defenses has gone by some. I have intentionally under represented the Hinds. I think this works for the scenarios and has a good balance for game play. It's not 100% accurate with what I think would be happening, for the actual numbers I have on the maps, but the end result I think would be the same; without cluttering up the ground combat part of the game.

Every game is a compromise. What part is sim and what part is game. We have walked a fine line in several areas to bring you what we consider the best presentation we could.


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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

As was brought up, helicopter crews want to stay alive too. They aren't going to be flying straight and level 400 feet above the surrounding terrain. They are going to be trying to kill you before you kill them. Helicopters normally have the weaponry to do just that if you don't see them first.

All that weaponry wouldn't have been mounted on helicopter platforms if those nations military's hadn't thought they were going to be effective. They would be constantly moving and changing position but they would be killing enemy tanks in the process.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

For an example of less than HALF of what would have actually been deployed try playing Ate Up.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by TheWombat_matrixforum »

Good points. The areas of operation in West Germany aren't that huge, and the sheer quantity of stuff both sides fielded or could field was ginormous. The limitations on Pact forces would have shown up over time, in the logistics and the consequences of the deep strike strategy of the NATO air forces--theoretically. That presupposed the war lasted long enough for that to take effect, and that enough NATO airpower survived the initial assaults to make a difference before the Pact tanks could overrun most of West Germany. How long they could have maintained those fleets of choppers is questionable, but in the time frame of the game that's sort of irrelevant.

We knew back then that our SHORAD/DIVAD was terrible, but there was little that anyone was willing to do, for a combination of political and bureaucratic reasons.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by loki100 »

good points overall.

I did a test in 'Dawns First Light' - just sent in the Hinds into the area where the US Infantry Division usually starts. Well I killed a lot of vehicles, but after 30 mins of combat, had taken enough losses that the Hinds were useless for the rest of the scenario.

So if you go in thoughtlessly, and use assault/hold orders, they die.

Did a restart using my more usual tactics with them. One squadron back, one down the flank and the final one operating in conjunction with the armour spearheads - deliberate/screen.

Still playing that scenario and I'm on the third wave with the Hinds, letting them fall back refit and replenish. Each wave, in conjunction with the ground elements, has cleared NATO out of a key position and still have about 70% operational.

As in the first post, I suspect to some its a shock to see how bad NATO's AA really was. Also, all the scenarios are built on the premise that the NATO formations are 'what was available after the CW strikes' not what is in the notional OOB.

The only thing I think is really missing is airburst artillery, that would help both sides to drive in helicopters operating just on the edge of counter-fire range.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: loki100

The only thing I think is really missing is airburst artillery, that would help both sides to drive in helicopters operating just on the edge of counter-fire range.

There are a few things that artillery abstracts that I would like to make more detailed.

Two of those, for example, are airbursts vs helo's and tree bursts vs dismounted infantry.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by wodin »

One issues is trying to mix fidelity with abstraction. Personally I think the Heli units at this scale should be very abstract. The spotting and hit ratios should be based on them using proper tactics keeping low behind terrain features. Then I'd add in percentage modifiers based on current terrain, training, moral and then pilot mistake and pilot lucky (both would be very rare). I wouldn't actually bother modeling altitude and just take it as read that the heli's are using the correct tactics at the right time (except if they roll say a 1:100 chance for pilot mistake and they become way more vulnerable for a set amount of time, this would add abit of randomness).

Once you start going into detailed mechanics they will always clash with abstract hex terrain.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by CapnDarwin »

Wodin, a great number of those factors you rattled off are in the models already, including readiness impacts. We do need to fix the arty versus helo issues and maybe get a few tweaks to the helo standoff logic so they are a bit more skittish in close contact with enemy forces. I'll buy that.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

To a great extent I think the determining factor is how you use your helicopters in the game.

As NATO I try to keep my helicopters back out of harms way until I've had a chance to neutralize some of the WP ADA assets.

AS WP I try to have my helicopters just behind my lead elements. I try to neutralize whatever NATO ADA assets do show up.

I do not lead with my helicopters, unless they are scouts.

I do not assign them missions that tanks should be doing.

I try very hard to keep them alive as long as possible because they are a very potent weapons system.

Good Hunting.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Arnir »

I just finished a scenario as NATO (won't name it so I don't give anything away as a spoiler) and I know I was screaming "Were is my ADA?" In short I hardly had any. It made me wonder if I was doing something wrong or if the lack of assets meant NATO would have been screwed in the real world.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by 2ndACR »

In 2nd ACR, we planned to use our M1A1 and Brads to take out the Hinds on sight. A Sabot would do a Hind just fine and it prob would not have a chance to dodge out of the way. Heck the sabot would prob arrive at the Hind way before the Hind missile arrived at target. 25mm Sabot from the Brads would do them just fine too. Them rounds is more powerful than folks think and any that say "they are armored to take hits from 30mm" might not know quite how evil the 25mm Bushmaster is. It will swiss cheese a BMP, and even get some into the interior of a T55 at close range.

Major overkill but hey, you use what you got that works best.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Tazak »

Trying to shoot a heli with a 105/120mm MBT main gun is surely a sign of wishful thinking, doubt that any heli will sit still long enough to let a MBT align its main gun in its direction.

NATO heli operations make a great play of stand-off weapons and since the late 80's top mounted sights allowing attack gunships to launch ATGW from below the tree line. Why? to give the helo the best chance of survial against the sheer volume of WP ADA.
NATO relies more on obtaining and maintaining air superiority that it does on ground based AA systems, the WP knew this which is one of the reasons they invested some much into ground based AA systems on the understanding they could not reply on the airforce to protect ground forces.
We in NATO were bombarded with images of apaches and cobra gunships mixed with lynx/tow stopping entire tank divisions in their tracks. Does anyone have the priority list of targets for tank gunners, the one I remember was in the order of – HQ targets, AD systems, tanks, lastly IFV. There is a reason AD systems are ahead of tanks from the NATO view.

How do the WP view helo activities, to give you a view of WP helo operations check out this 1989 report on the Soviet Air Assault bridges
Air Assault Operations
20 air assault bde's contained within Army level used to take objectives around 20-100Km from the front line, look at page 43/44 to view the number of helo's per army in it's attack helo regiment
Mil24 Hind's - 40 of the buggers
Mil8 Hip attack - 20
thats not counting the number of armed transport helo.

Now imagine you’re in your tank or trench and are suddenly faced with 40 hinds popping up from behind the tree 1km away, letting rip with their FFR (free fire rockets), that’s a mini barrage with near pinpoint accuracy, damaged sights, damaged main guns, blown tracks etc….while not kills in the normal sense of burning vehicles, they would have achieved soft kills putting a large number of troops/vehicles out of action.
While your recovering from that little barrage you are on the receiving end of ATGW and 40+ transport helo’s placing airassault troops on or near your position, with the attack helo’s moving forward beyond or to the flanks to provide protection while the airassault troops secure the objective.

Helo losses are occuring from non-AD units but I would not expect to see a NATO tank or infantry company take on a flight of attack helos and win, I think helo activities are down-played and cannot wait until helo’s can disembark troops, it will open a whole new dimension to FPRS.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by 2ndACR »

Yeah, and Russia loved wire guided missiles, they have a tendency to sit still in the late 80's. Flight time on a TOW to max effective was about 12 seconds. No dancing around while missile in flight. Sorta makes it hard to fly it to the target, same as hear Sagger 2 o clock and immediately open up with everything possible in that direction hoping to make the gunner flinch or duck. And I will be the first to say that the US sucked when it came to non man portable ADA. Best we could have done was buy Gepard from Germany. Heck most of us would have even liked to have some Russian gear. We felt kinda naked in the line units, if the crap would have went down I for one wanted any way I could to combat a threat. And we learned first hand that our warshots were way more accurate than our practice shots.

Really think we trained for it? Hell no, this was down at the crew/plt level "how the heck do we combat stuff we know our stuff cannot handle". What you think we are going to sit in our "hides" and say "damn Hinds, we are screwed, where is our ADA?" Heck no, we shoot back at them. Heck M2 .50 is a awesome weapon but versus a Hind it is kinda wishful thinking. So we thought of counter's. We never planned to see a air superiority, heck even a neutral battle ground would be nice. But damned if we were going to sit there and take it. I seen the same priority target list, but again, what hope some crappy Vulcan is going to actually work? I have yet to see a non ADA weapon take out a Hind in game, but maybe I miss it.

Hind is not the end all be all, heard the same stories about the BMP, the T72 etc, heard the stories about the vaunted Iraqi army and their combat veteran crews, we went thru them in Desert Storm like they were kids toys. Russian no, but I sorta lost my faith in the stories we heard after that. And Russian gear was not even close to NATO gear overall. I personally feel that 90% of the Russian tanks and IFV are rolling death traps.

Does not take long to train a main gun on a M1A1 or a Brad. Complete 360 in seconds.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Tazak »

The british infantry training was also near non existant, I barely remember 1 class about how much to aim off for high speed moving targets....and then nothing more [&:], the main effect is to put as much lead as possible by as many people as possible in the general direction and hope at least some of the rounds hit

Been playing the US campagin where I think in the 3rd or 4th mission there is a number of Hips and Hinds leading, but even though my AD units were not in helpful positions the M1's & supproting M2's were able to down a handful of helos until my AD units entered the fight. Did take a beating but nothing that destroyed my position....the T80 regtiment that was following them did that [&:]

And in my Red Storm AAR the WG BO-105's did cause me problems as again I left my WP AD units woefully positioned....I think I'm victim of the effects of limited understanding of area air defence and will need to either research tactics or work out tactics without being overly 'gamey'. Does anyone have links to AD tactics?

It would be intresting to see some testing on the number of kills v.s fallen out and by which helo-borne weapon systems, are hip/hinds causing large numbers of actual kills with their ATGW or is it more of fallen out 'kills' with FFR
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by 2ndACR »

Would be nice to know........course just breaking the track is not that huge a deal, a good crew and repair a track in the field pretty quick. Course it sucked breaking track in the field.

Would be easy for me to miss most of the stuff in game, I only really get to play while at work (nice to be the owner and a slow season) as my home time is either family or my Scourge of War addiction.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Aztec »

No dancing around while missile in flight. Sorta makes it hard to fly it to the target, same as hear Sagger 2 o clock and immediately open up with everything possible in that direction hoping to make the gunner flinch or duck. And I will be the first to say that the US sucked when it came to non man portable ADA. Best we could have done was buy Gepard from Germany. Heck most of us would have even liked to have some Russian gear. We felt kinda naked in the line units, if the crap would have went down I for one wanted any way I could to combat a threat. And we learned first hand that our warshots were way more accurate than our practice shots.

FWIW, years ago, my 15 y/o daughter, got to play with an M1 gunnery simulator at some event that I have long since forgotten. The young soldiers laughed and joked with her...until she shot a helo down with a main gun round! They got silent real quick and suggested that she should come back in a few years, when she was 18.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by 2ndACR »

I firmly believe that a M1A1 could take out a Helo pretty easy if it had to do so. I mean you are talking about a Sabot that is moving about a mile per second, dead on accurate. Add to that the 25mm Sabot rounds from Brads and I would not want to be a non NATO helo driver without a rotor mast.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by DoubleDeuce »

I can't speak for other units but when I was an M60A3 COFT trainer in Baumholder I routinely set up custom exercises involving helo's at the direction of the BN Co. He knew ADA was a US weakness and wanted TC's to be aggressive and not afraid to engage any targets we were spotted or engaged by, included helo's. I'm guessing the advent of the LRF and enhanced fire control systems made this more feasible as its not something we even contemplated in the M60A1's.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Tazak »

I've carried out some testing of tanks vs helo

Forces used:
1 company of M1A1 MBTs, in a mixture of terrain (open/wood) set to screen defending a VP
2 versions of M1A1 were created, 1 retaining its MGs (1x 50 cal & 2x 7.62 M240) but losing its main 120mm M256 main gun, the other with its main gun but losing all MGs. Both lost all smoke dischargers
1 flight of 4 HIND-P set to assault orders towards company of M1A1.
2 versions of HIND-P were created, both lose their 30mm GSh-30K, one was armed with 80mm S-8 (2x 40 launchers) while the other was armed with AT-6 Spiral (4x 4 launchers).

Tests:
A single battle of 4 hours was generated and ran 5 times each (command cycles were 17min for US and 19min for soviets)
Low EW was used
Clear weather
1st Aug 1989 12.00 hours
Hotseat play with engagement occurring with 1 blank hex between forces (to ensure that engagements occurred within all weapons effective ranges), battles ran until either side were destroyed or HIND-P ran out of ammo (or until 70% SD kicked in)
M1A1 forces were 3x 4 vehicle platoons in a line either in a tree line next to a ‘clear hex’ or in a ‘clear hex’
Emergency resupply was off
Testing with the M1A1 Main gun only was abandoned as the M1A1 refused to engage the HINDs

Results recorded for each group:
Number of HIND-P kills split into fallen out and destroyed
Number of M1A1 kills split into fallen out and destroyed

ATGW armed HIND-P vs MGs only armed M1A1 (in woods)
Test 1
12 M1A1 KO’d – 8 fallen, 4 destroyed
Test 2
1 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen
10 M1A1 KO’d – 6 fallen, 4 destroyed
Test 3
11 M1A1 KO’d – 8 fallen, 3 destroyed
Test 4
2 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 1 destroyed
11 M1A1 KO’d - 8 fallen, 3 destroyed
Test 5
2 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 1 destroyed
11 M1A1 KO’d – 6 fallen, 5 destroyed

Rkt armed HIND-P vs MGs only armed M1A1 (in woods)
Test 1
4 HIND-P KO’d – 3 fallen, 1 destroyed
1 M1A1 KO'd - 1 destroyed
Test 2
4 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 3 destroyed
9 M1A1 KO’d – 5 fallen, 4 destroyed
Test 3
4 HIND-P KO’d – 3 fallen, 1 destroyed
8 M1A1 KO’d – 2 fallen, 6 destroyed
Test 4
4 HIND-P KO’d – 2 fallen, 2 destroyed
2 M1A1 KO’d – 2 fallen, 0 destroyed
Test 5
2 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 1 destroyed
10 M1A1 KO’d – 6 fallen, 4 destroyed

ATGW armed HIND-P vs MGs only armed M1A1 in clear hex
Test 1
2 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 1 destroyed
12 M1A1 KO’d – 9 fallen, 3 destroyed
Test 2
1 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 0 destroyed
12 M1A1 KO’d – 8 fallen, 4 destroyed
Test 3
11 M1A1 KO’d – 3 fallen, 8 destroyed
Test 4
2 HIND-P KO’d – 2 fallen, 0 destroyed
11 M1A1 KO’d – 8 fallen, 3 destroyed
Test 5
12 M1A1 KO’d – 6 fallen, 6 destroyed


Rkt armed HIND-P vs MGs only armed M1A1 (in clear hex)
Test 1
4 HIND-P KO’d – 3 fallen, 1 destroyed
3 M1A1 KO’d – 2 fallen, 1 destroyed
Test 2
4 HIND-P KO’d – 4 fallen, 0 destroyed
7 M1A1 KO’d – 3 fallen, 4 destroyed
Test 3
4 HIND-P KO’d – 3 fallen, 1 destroyed
4 M1A1 KO’d – 1 fallen, 3 destroyed
Test 4
0 HIND-P KO’d – 0 fallen, 0 destroyed
10 M1A1 KO’d – 7 fallen, 3 destroyed
Test 5
3 HIND-P KO’d – 1 fallen, 2 destroyed
8 M1A1 KO’d – 5 fallen, 3 destroyed

Observations:
As expected ATGW armed HIND-P were lethal in that they ‘won’ the engagements with 1-2 losses, the majority of engagements were over very quickly with the M1A1 getting very few return fire chances.
While the HIND-P Rkt armed were less impressive losing the majority of their engagements although there was a noticeable increase in M1A1 losses while in a ‘clear hex’ when using Rkt armed HIND-P. I suspect that as the engagement went on for longer than the ATGW engagements this allowed more chances for return from the M1A1s thus more HIND-P losses.
During editing of customer user data I noticed that the HIND-P has a FC/RF of 8 (Col M of the units tab), which is comparable to the US AH-64A Apache despite the HIND being available 4 years earlier - is this correct?

Disclaimer - The tests were vey limited and should not be used with a view to try and get games changes done
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by CapnDarwin »

A couple quick points :
1. Tank main guns and a number of other weapons are not AD capable. As you found out.
2. The Hinds FC rating is good. It is based on the equipment it has, but it is also modified in the code by the country's equipment rating.

Other items to look at are readiness and training on both sides.

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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