The Nazi-Soviet pact rule clarification

[michaelbaldur]

I ended the The Nazi-Soviet pact. but no DOW

but the game still allows USSR to demand.

(whish mess up the game)

I read the rules. but is it not clear if USSR can still demand after the pact is broken.

[Centuur]

I think that MWIF is correct.

If the USSR was not allowed to do so, it would have been stated in the rules.

Also, it looks like the rules allow those demands, since they are not part of the Nazi-Soviet Pact rule (19.5 and 19.6) in RAW.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think that MWIF is correct.

If the USSR was not allowed to do so, it would have been stated in the rules.

Also, it looks like the rules allow those demands, since they are not part of the Nazi-Soviet Pact rule (19.5 and 19.6) in RAW.

the demands on Finland and Rumania are rule 19.6

[Shannon V. OKeets]

To my eye, section 19.5 concerns the Nazi-Soviet Pact while 19.6 concerns claiming Bessarabia and the Finnish borderlands.

The two are completely separate.

[michaelbaldur]

as this is a million to one situation and there are no code to support it.

I suggest that we just disable that USSR can claim after the pact is broken

1. the pact should be broken without a DOW (to have a chance to claim before aligned)
2. the USSR should not have claimed before the pact is broken
3. the USSR want to claim after the pact is broken
4. the Ussr have to claim before the Germans have aligned them.

the chance of that happening is just so small that I thing it is okay to disable the Ussr from claiming after the pact is broken

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

To my eye, section 19.5 concerns the Nazi-Soviet Pact while 19.6 concerns claiming Bessarabia and the Finnish borderlands.

The two are completely separate.

You said it.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


as this is a million to one situation and there are no code to support it.

I suggest that we just disable that USSR can claim after the pact is broken

1. the pact should be broken without a DOW (to have a chance to claim before aligned)
2. the USSR should not have claimed before the pact is broken
3. the USSR want to claim after the pact is broken
4. the Ussr have to claim before the Germans have aligned them.

the chance of that happening is just so small that I thing it is okay to disable the Ussr from claiming after the pact is broken

Perhaps there is an easy fix? If Steve has a save?

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


as this is a million to one situation and there are no code to support it.

I suggest that we just disable that USSR can claim after the pact is broken

1. the pact should be broken without a DOW (to have a chance to claim before aligned)
2. the USSR should not have claimed before the pact is broken
3. the USSR want to claim after the pact is broken
4. the Ussr have to claim before the Germans have aligned them.

the chance of that happening is just so small that I thing it is okay to disable the Ussr from claiming after the pact is broken

Perhaps there is an easy fix? If Steve has a save?

dont think there is an easy fix. and the bug list is full of stuff that need easy fixes.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


as this is a million to one situation and there are no code to support it.

I suggest that we just disable that USSR can claim after the pact is broken

1. the pact should be broken without a DOW (to have a chance to claim before aligned)
2. the USSR should not have claimed before the pact is broken
3. the USSR want to claim after the pact is broken
4. the Ussr have to claim before the Germans have aligned them.

the chance of that happening is just so small that I thing it is okay to disable the Ussr from claiming after the pact is broken

I don't agree at all. Why should the USSR not be allowed to make any claims after the pact gets broken? After all: the communist party wants to rule the world...

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


as this is a million to one situation and there are no code to support it.

I suggest that we just disable that USSR can claim after the pact is broken

1. the pact should be broken without a DOW (to have a chance to claim before aligned)
2. the USSR should not have claimed before the pact is broken
3. the USSR want to claim after the pact is broken
4. the Ussr have to claim before the Germans have aligned them.

the chance of that happening is just so small that I thing it is okay to disable the Ussr from claiming after the pact is broken

I don't agree at all. Why should the USSR not be allowed to make any claims after the pact gets broken? After all: the communist party wants to rule the world...

I ment temporary. then in the future, we can make codes for it.

but the window for claim is so small, after the pact is broken, that I never seen it happen

[brian brian]

The scenario to consider is when Germany gets greedy in the west and thus slack in the east and the Russians break the Pact. And the easiest way to do that is by not opening the door to Germany adding garrison points via aligning their Balkan allies - which they can’t do until Russia initiates the diplomacy there by demanding Bessarabia, or Germany attacking Yugoslavia.

And, they can break it and then not declare War on Germany - DOW not required after breaking Pact. Economic and US Entry upsides (no USE hit) for them. Germany may very much not want to DOW right then either, which brings in the Russian RES units, as well as obviously opening multiple new front lines for them v

And what the Russians really might wish to do is smash into Rumania and blow up Ploesti before the Panzers inevitably chase them back to the Ukraine - that will cost a few ReichsMarks to fix!

But to do that they first have to demand Bessarabia - and that’s the rule of the game.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The scenario to consider is when Germany gets greedy in the west and thus slack in the east and the Russians break the Pact. And the easiest way to do that is by not opening the door to Germany adding garrison points via aligning their Balkan allies - which they can’t do until Russia initiates the diplomacy there by demanding Bessarabia, or Germany attacking Yugoslavia.

And, they can break it and then not declare War on Germany - DOW not required after breaking Pact. Economic and US Entry upsides (no USE hit) for them. Germany may very much not want to DOW right then either, which brings in the Russian RES units, as well as obviously opening multiple new front lines for them v

And what the Russians really might wish to do is smash into Rumania and blow up Ploesti before the Panzers inevitably chase them back to the Ukraine - that will cost a few ReichsMarks to fix!

But to do that they first have to demand Bessarabia - and that’s the rule of the game.

but why would the USSR break the pact, it protects them.

its more safe to claim without breaking.

after you break you open yourself up to a surprise attack

[brian brian]

And what is really up in the air is whether the Germans get Finland, as far as the DOW decision.

If the Russians break the Pact, they gain +2.5 BP per turn (net change), and cost the Germans up to 3 BP per turn (net) - & perhaps more importantly, 2 oil per turn.

Meanwhile, perhaps the Germans are bogged down somewhere else on the map. Perhaps they can’t afford a sudden new Eastern Front over the next few turns. Perhaps the USA will make option choices and aid to USSR levels conditional on Russian impacts on USE chits.

The Demand Bessarabia mechanism prevents the Russians from adding on to a Pact break with an instant invasion of Rumania. Not all Russian players use the Pact to head off to adventures in the Middle East and Manchuria. Some choose to pressure a Mediterranean focused Axis on their own; some Russians can be successful at that. But the rules force Russia to try the Demand option if the Pact is gone; the rule is saying Russia (or more realistically, Stalin himself) does not have unlimited political/diplomatic capital to expand the war.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

And what is really up in the air is whether the Germans get Finland, as far as the DOW decision.

If the Russians break the Pact, they gain +2.5 BP per turn (net change), and cost the Germans up to 3 BP per turn (net) - & perhaps more importantly, 2 oil per turn.

Meanwhile, perhaps the Germans are bogged down somewhere else on the map. Perhaps they can’t afford a sudden new Eastern Front over the next few turns. Perhaps the USA will make option choices and aid to USSR levels conditional on Russian impacts on USE chits.

The Demand Bessarabia mechanism prevents the Russians from adding on to a Pact break with an instant invasion of Rumania. Not all Russian players use the Pact to head off to adventures in the Middle East and Manchuria. Some choose to pressure a Mediterranean focused Axis on their own; some Russians can be successful at that. But the rules force Russia to try the Demand option if the Pact is gone; the rule is saying Russia (or more realistically, Stalin himself) does not have unlimited political/diplomatic capital to expand the war.

yes I know there are cases, and yes the rule should be coded. (some day)

my point was just that we could disable it now.

I think 99/100, it goes. Germany break the pact, DOW and align Rumania, next inpulse align Finland.

yes I agree that there a cases where ussr break the pact but dont DOW. but its rare.