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[Logged] Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns

 
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[Logged] Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 4:37:33 PM   
tiag

 

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More one bug, I guess.
Running CMO 1.03 Build 1147.25

I was setting a ground battle and was surprised on how artillery was hitting very precisely tgts that started moving AFTER the artillery has fired. It seems that rounds of ALL cannons and guns (ground, naval and air warfare) in CMO follows the tgt, independent when it started moving or speed.
I uploaded a video to make it clear.

VIDEO

I guess the issue resides on the fact the CMO does not tgt coordinates, as mentioned already in this forum, but only units. So, I guess the rounds save a copy of a unit as the tgt and follows it wherever it goes. It should be very easy to find where the problem is.

< Message edited by WSBot -- 7/7/2021 3:36:36 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 4:48:35 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13076
Joined: 7/31/2005
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This is not a bug per se, but the result of an abstraction on how unguided weapons fly to their targets.

TL-DR; Ever played Mech Commander 1 or 2? Same thing.

Longer version:

Guided weapons plot a realistic lead/intercept course to their targets, but unguided weapons such as rockets or gun shells or not. Combined with the current "always visible" limitation, this means that a player could, by seeing the trail early enough and micromanaging a unit, unrealistically dodge incoming fire.

To discourage this cheat, unguided weapons "stick" to their intended targets wherever they move. They still hit/miss realistically depending on their accuracy, target size and various other factors, but you're not able to "dance" your way out of them (or teleport your way out of them, as in the sample video).

Microsoft Studios did the same trick in the completely awesome Mech Commander series, for much the same reason.

Hope this helps.

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RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 4:53:44 PM   
tiag

 

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I have thought about that, but than a follow up question:
If a unit starts moving AFTER the cannon/gun in question fired, it will be hit everytime. This is unrealistically isnt it?

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RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 4:55:08 PM   
tiag

 

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The teleport thing was to show clearly the effect, which btw, it is hardly to see at slower tgts speed.(but it is still there)

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RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 5:11:50 PM   
Dimitris

 

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Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiag
I have thought about that, but than a follow up question:
If a unit starts moving AFTER the cannon/gun in question fired, it will be hit everytime. This is unrealistically isnt it?


Yes, but this is a rather thin/rare edge case, time-wise. In the vast majority of cases you are either shooting at still/fixed targets or already-moving ones, and their motion vector is unlikely to change significantly through the duration of the projectile flight. (Evasive maneuvers are a thing, but they are more about throwing off the pre-fire lead calcs rather than invalidating them once the projectile is in the air).

If you want to experiment with "I'll sit still right until he shoots at me and then sprint out" tank-combat or "shoot and scoot" counter-battery tactics, a system-level game/simulator like M1TP or Steel Beasts may be a better fit.

Outside of The Matrix (or Max Payne), seeing incoming projectiles early enough to actively dodge them is just not practical. Even dedicated counter-battery radars (TPQ series, ARTHUR, COBRA etc.) are more about "everybody take cover NOW!" warning and quick calculation of the firing point for prompt QB fire delivery, rather to actively manouver out of the way.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 7/4/2021 5:24:30 PM >


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RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 6:56:12 PM   
tiag

 

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Thank you, Dmitri. I was not trying to simulate any shoot-and-scoot, evade shots or cheating artillery shots. I was simply suprised on a ground scenario I have been working on how effective was artillery in general hitting moving ground units several miles away.

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RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/4/2021 10:04:23 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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This question comes up from time to time, and I understand why the abstraction has been made, but I have to admit it still feels like an awkward solution, even after all these years. Targets moving erratically at high speed really are difficult to hit with shellfire, and high speed ships really did chase shell splashes in order try and dodge enemy shellfire. A model which calculated time of flight to a predicted stationary impact point, and then applied dispersion around that point (to simulate all the accumulated errors of the targeting process and mechanical systems) would come closer to actual shellfire behaviour, without the awkward compromise of 'sticky' shells. It would help grant high-speed targets the advantages they really had.

However, if such a system were implemented, the current ability to see the incoming shells from the moment they are fired (and to be able to plot exactly where they're going) would make it liable to abuse. I wonder if it would be worth removing some of the shellfire graphics for enemy shots?


Enemy Medium and Large Calibre Guns

  • A firing gun system of medium or large calibre that is spotted by optical sensors would briefly display the current gunfire graphics, but the shell graphics would fade out after a very short distance, within a second or so.
  • No shellfire graphics would be displayed while the shell is in flight.
  • Shell-splashes would be displayed at the actual point of impact, like bomb bursts currently are.

    This would let the player tell that a system is shooting, and vaguely in what direction, but they wouldn't know precisely where the shells are going, or exactly when they'll hit, or even which of their units is the specific target. If they want to try and dodge they can, but not in a reliable video-gamey way. If they can't actually see the gun system (artillery behind a hill, etc.) then they would only see the shell-splashes/impacts hitting around them. The player can currently spot hidden artillery batteries with perfect accuracy the moment they open fire, just by watching the shellfire graphics. This has had a major impact on several littoral scenarios (several of Gunner98's Fury series come to mind), and it would be an improvement if this was not possible.


    Enemy Small Calibre Guns

  • Short-ranged small calibre weapons would retain the current graphics system.

    These are typically tracer-firing direct-fire autocannons and MGs, where the stream of gunfire is often visible, and the ranges are so short that dodging is not an issue.


    Friendly Guns

  • All friendly guns would retain the current graphics system.

    Although the player theoretically shouldn't see his outgoing arty fire (except night-time RAP/BB), keeping the graphics helps the player manage his gunfire, so I think it would make sense as a play aide.


    Some of these changes (particularly not seeing enemy medium and large shots in flight) might be helpful even if the 'sticky' shots were retained.


    Anyway, just musing out loud. It's easy to make proposals when I don't have to do any work!



    (in reply to tiag)
  • Post #: 7
    RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/5/2021 7:16:37 PM   
    tylerblakebrandon

     

    Posts: 108
    Joined: 5/11/2020
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: AndrewJ

    This question comes up from time to time, and I understand why the abstraction has been made, but I have to admit it still feels like an awkward solution, even after all these years. Targets moving erratically at high speed really are difficult to hit with shellfire, and high speed ships really did chase shell splashes in order try and dodge enemy shellfire. A model which calculated time of flight to a predicted stationary impact point, and then applied dispersion around that point (to simulate all the accumulated errors of the targeting process and mechanical systems) would come closer to actual shellfire behaviour, without the awkward compromise of 'sticky' shells. It would help grant high-speed targets the advantages they really had.

    However, if such a system were implemented, the current ability to see the incoming shells from the moment they are fired (and to be able to plot exactly where they're going) would make it liable to abuse. I wonder if it would be worth removing some of the shellfire graphics for enemy shots?


    Enemy Medium and Large Calibre Guns

  • A firing gun system of medium or large calibre that is spotted by optical sensors would briefly display the current gunfire graphics, but the shell graphics would fade out after a very short distance, within a second or so.
  • No shellfire graphics would be displayed while the shell is in flight.
  • Shell-splashes would be displayed at the actual point of impact, like bomb bursts currently are.

    This would let the player tell that a system is shooting, and vaguely in what direction, but they wouldn't know precisely where the shells are going, or exactly when they'll hit, or even which of their units is the specific target. If they want to try and dodge they can, but not in a reliable video-gamey way. If they can't actually see the gun system (artillery behind a hill, etc.) then they would only see the shell-splashes/impacts hitting around them. The player can currently spot hidden artillery batteries with perfect accuracy the moment they open fire, just by watching the shellfire graphics. This has had a major impact on several littoral scenarios (several of Gunner98's Fury series come to mind), and it would be an improvement if this was not possible.


    Enemy Small Calibre Guns

  • Short-ranged small calibre weapons would retain the current graphics system.

    These are typically tracer-firing direct-fire autocannons and MGs, where the stream of gunfire is often visible, and the ranges are so short that dodging is not an issue.


    Friendly Guns

  • All friendly guns would retain the current graphics system.

    Although the player theoretically shouldn't see his outgoing arty fire (except night-time RAP/BB), keeping the graphics helps the player manage his gunfire, so I think it would make sense as a play aide.


    Some of these changes (particularly not seeing enemy medium and large shots in flight) might be helpful even if the 'sticky' shots were retained.


    Anyway, just musing out loud. It's easy to make proposals when I don't have to do any work!





  • Such a system could also make counter-battery radars useful for spotting the otherwise unseen shell fires.

    (in reply to AndrewJ)
    Post #: 8
    RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/5/2021 9:07:05 PM   
    BDukes

     

    Posts: 1405
    Joined: 12/27/2017
    Status: offline

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: AndrewJ

    This question comes up from time to time, and I understand why the abstraction has been made, but I have to admit it still feels like an awkward solution, even after all these years. Targets moving erratically at high speed really are difficult to hit with shellfire, and high speed ships really did chase shell splashes in order try and dodge enemy shellfire. A model which calculated time of flight to a predicted stationary impact point, and then applied dispersion around that point (to simulate all the accumulated errors of the targeting process and mechanical systems) would come closer to actual shellfire behaviour, without the awkward compromise of 'sticky' shells. It would help grant high-speed targets the advantages they really had.

    However, if such a system were implemented, the current ability to see the incoming shells from the moment they are fired (and to be able to plot exactly where they're going) would make it liable to abuse. I wonder if it would be worth removing some of the shellfire graphics for enemy shots?


    Enemy Medium and Large Calibre Guns

  • A firing gun system of medium or large calibre that is spotted by optical sensors would briefly display the current gunfire graphics, but the shell graphics would fade out after a very short distance, within a second or so.
  • No shellfire graphics would be displayed while the shell is in flight.
  • Shell-splashes would be displayed at the actual point of impact, like bomb bursts currently are.

    This would let the player tell that a system is shooting, and vaguely in what direction, but they wouldn't know precisely where the shells are going, or exactly when they'll hit, or even which of their units is the specific target. If they want to try and dodge they can, but not in a reliable video-gamey way. If they can't actually see the gun system (artillery behind a hill, etc.) then they would only see the shell-splashes/impacts hitting around them. The player can currently spot hidden artillery batteries with perfect accuracy the moment they open fire, just by watching the shellfire graphics. This has had a major impact on several littoral scenarios (several of Gunner98's Fury series come to mind), and it would be an improvement if this was not possible.


    Enemy Small Calibre Guns

  • Short-ranged small calibre weapons would retain the current graphics system.

    These are typically tracer-firing direct-fire autocannons and MGs, where the stream of gunfire is often visible, and the ranges are so short that dodging is not an issue.


    Friendly Guns

  • All friendly guns would retain the current graphics system.

    Although the player theoretically shouldn't see his outgoing arty fire (except night-time RAP/BB), keeping the graphics helps the player manage his gunfire, so I think it would make sense as a play aide.


    Some of these changes (particularly not seeing enemy medium and large shots in flight) might be helpful even if the 'sticky' shots were retained.


    Anyway, just musing out loud. It's easy to make proposals when I don't have to do any work!





  • Nice idea. +1

    (in reply to AndrewJ)
    Post #: 9
    RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/6/2021 2:55:51 PM   
    WSBot

     

    Posts: 182
    Joined: 1/17/2021
    Status: offline
    0014641

    (in reply to BDukes)
    Post #: 10
    RE: Bug on the mechanics of Cannons/Guns - 7/7/2021 11:36:12 AM   
    Dimitris

     

    Posts: 13076
    Joined: 7/31/2005
    Status: online
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: AndrewJ

    This question comes up from time to time, and I understand why the abstraction has been made, but I have to admit it still feels like an awkward solution, even after all these years. Targets moving erratically at high speed really are difficult to hit with shellfire, and high speed ships really did chase shell splashes in order try and dodge enemy shellfire. A model which calculated time of flight to a predicted stationary impact point, and then applied dispersion around that point (to simulate all the accumulated errors of the targeting process and mechanical systems) would come closer to actual shellfire behaviour, without the awkward compromise of 'sticky' shells. It would help grant high-speed targets the advantages they really had.

    However, if such a system were implemented, the current ability to see the incoming shells from the moment they are fired (and to be able to plot exactly where they're going) would make it liable to abuse. I wonder if it would be worth removing some of the shellfire graphics for enemy shots?

    [...]



    This is an interesting suggestion indeed. It also ties with something related that we are looking into, WRT making large shells and rockets properly detectable and interceptable by C-RAM systems.

    _____________________________


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