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German fighters over Britain

 
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German fighters over Britain - 11/27/2005 5:59:40 AM   
hoopdog9

 

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New player question:
Does anyone know why German fighters cannot fly over the UK in scenario 1? My bombers, stationed in France, can fly over, but not my fighters from France or the Netherlands. Engalnds bombers & fighters attacked me in France, but I can't attack them over England! Help!
Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/27/2005 6:16:12 AM   
SeaMonkey

 

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hd9, welcome to the game. The speed for Axis fighters is 1, which means the range is one region....I know....go figure.

just research it up to two and you will be able to operate fighters over UK.

(in reply to hoopdog9)
Post #: 2
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/27/2005 6:40:10 AM   
Joel Billings


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This simulates the fact that German early war fighters could not fly far into England and fight (one reason why they lost the Battle of Britain). The 2 engine fighters (ME-110s) are factored into the tac bomber units. As stated you need to research longer range fighters to challenge for air superiority over England (as opposed to just the channel). Yes, this is harsh, but given the scale of the game, it was a design decision we stand behind.

(in reply to SeaMonkey)
Post #: 3
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/27/2005 6:54:05 AM   
hoopdog9

 

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Thanks for your fast & helpful replies. I'm off to the lab to research how to squeeze more gas mileage out of my fighters.

(in reply to hoopdog9)
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RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/27/2005 9:40:06 PM   
mcaryf

 

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Hi Joel

Whilst I can understand your reluctance to allow Fighters to traverse any 2 regions in 1940 it does seem a most unfortunate decision to make the standard version of GGWAW incapable of simulating The Battle of Britain which was one of the more famous engagements of WW2.

People can of course mod the Fighters in the Unit file if they wish but could I suggest a neater compromise - if you make the French and English coastlines into a type 5 island border will not this allow Fighters to cross the English Channel? After all it is only 26 miles wide at its narrowest point so hardly justifies a travel point.

I think this would work and not cause too many other anomalies. The other borders of this piece of sea are all double ones so we would not have early Fighters winging off into the Atlantic!

Whilst I am on this topic of borders I would also suggest adopting the Gib mod where the border from Spain to Gib is passable to land units whilst that from Gib to Spain is not. This recognizes that it would not really be feasible due to space limitations to assemble large forces to invade Spain from Gib whilst you could reasonably bring up artillery etc in mainland Spain to bombard and eventually attack Gib. I have tested this in a mod I am developing and it works fine and the AI seems to use it.

Regards

Mike

< Message edited by mcaryf -- 11/27/2005 9:43:57 PM >

(in reply to hoopdog9)
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RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/27/2005 10:06:49 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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Its already too easy doing a Sealion - making it even easier is a bad idea in my opinion. Also, making mere speed 2 FTRs able to reach the Irish Sea would have absolutely huge consequences for the ability to isolate England.

If you disagree that Sealion is too easy then I challenge you to a ladder game with me as the Germans. I will even let you know in advance that I aim to take out England :)

Wrt Spain I personally prefer making Spain into two territories.

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 6
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 2:22:00 AM   
mcaryf

 

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Hi Jan

Well of course the reason why the Germans could not do Sealion was because of the Royal Navy not because of the RAF. They needed to gain superiority over the RAF so they would have some chance to counter the RN who would otherwise decimate their transports. At the time the RAF had very limited anti-shipping or even close air support capability against land units.

At the time of the real projected Sealion the German Navy had effectively ceased to operate as virtually all their warships were sunk or damaged after their operations in Norway thus only their aircraft combined with a mine barrage could save any projected invasion fleet.

It is unfortunately a weakness in GGWAW that naval operations are poorly modelled with the ability to move out, attack and return to base when in reality the units involved would be most likely intercepted and destroyed/damaged. A better approach might have been for any landings in a region with a port to be liable to automatic interception by any naval units in that port. This is actually what would have happened in Summer 1940. I know a Naval Officer who was based on a cruiser (HMS Aurora) that moored in the Thames during the days in Summer 1940 to lend her AA to the barrage and at night cruised the channel with various DD flotillas to bombard German barges assembling in Channel ports and standing ready to intercept any attempt at a night crossing.

You may well be correct in saying that allowing range 1 Fighters to get to England would reveal other problems with the game mechanics but it seems as if there ought to be something better than the current solution, which does not allow a famous battle to take place at all. Ideally there should be the possibility for an air battle over England in Summer 1940 followed by an air/sea battle in Fall 1940.

The various gambits which allow possible amphibious landings in Scotland are of course historically absurd and perhaps it is the German transports which should be given their true historic range of 1 (they were to be towed Rhine barges!) which might help avoid degrading the true capability of the Fighters. As we know in retrospect the Germans already had the technology of drop tanks, which they deployed in the Spanish Civil War, so with some better technical leadership in the Luftwaffe they could easily have reached most relevant parts of England in 1940.

I have no problem with the idea of splitting Spain into two regions, it does after all occupy a larger land area than most other European countries - it is roughly the same size as France and 1.6 times Italy. However, I do not see why that helps deal with the conceptual problem of having so many troops on Gib that they would all need to be standing in the open as there would be no room to even sit down! You would need nearly one hundred thousand regions in Spain if you were using Gib as your unit of size as it is only 6.5 sq km!

Regards

Mike

(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 7
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 3:15:53 AM   
Korsun


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Hi all,

Is it that easy to do Sealion ? Even against experienced players ? Doesn´t Sealion mean negligence of other theatres ?
Well, three questions by a rather new player.

Cheers

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 8
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 8:47:54 AM   
JanSorensen

 

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Mike,

I dont think that the Gib stacking issue is a real problem - given the scale of the game. What I find is that its possibly too easy getting through Spain either way. Thats the reason I would find making Spain two territories to be a solution that fits the game well. Your solution on the other hand would change nothing wrt the Germans going south - while having the WA land in Portugal rather than use Gib if they wanted to go that route for only a tiny change in gameplay. As such your solution may mimic the geographic situation closer but it would not change gameplay as intended.

Concerning BoB you are obviously coffect in the historical sense. I just see all sorts of balance/gameplay problems if such a change was made at this time and I find that more importent.

(in reply to Korsun)
Post #: 9
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 1:20:44 PM   
mcaryf

 

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Hi Jan

I guess I tend to look at things from an historic perspective first and gameplay second so that is probably where we differ. It would have been entirely possible for the Germans working with the Spanish to have taken Gib from the land. My guess is that Franco would have gone along with it if Hitler had clearly won against the Russians. It would have caused some interesting variations to history but would not have been a game breaker for the Allies. They would have taken the Canaries and that would still give them a cork in the bottle to keep the Italian fleet out of the Atlantic.

It was fear of what might happen to Gib that caused the Allies to land on both the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts of North Africa in Operation Torch.

If the Axis does take Gib then the Allies irl as well as the game have some opportunity to get it back again by landing in either Portugal or Atlantic coast Spain as well as Gib itself.

My concern is the quite unrealistic possibility of the Allied player piling up huge forces in Gib ready for an assault into Spain. The change I am suggesting would make that impossible so the Allied player has to go the realistic route of an amphibious assault whilst the Axis can still attack Gib by land.

My apologies to the starter of this thread for going off topic.

Regards

Mike

(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 10
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 1:52:47 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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Mike,

My point is that your suggested change has very little effect on game play - so whats the point? If the Allies want to go through Spain they will just land in Portugal. The extra cost to do that compared to going from Gibraltar is minimal and no time is lost comperatively.

Also, I dont think its really all that unrealistic to have the Allies make a break out from Gibraltar through neutral Spain if they wanted to. They probably would not pile 10 corpse into Gibraltar - but you have to remember that each turn is 3 full months. During that time the Allies could reinforce the garrison in Gib, break out into southern Spain, land more troops and then make the drive for Madrid all without making any corpse sized amphibious operations. I urge you to focus less on the game technical order things are done in and more on the perspective of what its abstractively represents - in that frame I think the Allied breakout from Gib is perfectly historically, geographically and military realistic.

< Message edited by JanSorensen -- 11/28/2005 1:53:54 PM >

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 11
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 7:03:37 PM   
Lebatron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Also, I dont think its really all that unrealistic to have the Allies make a break out from Gibraltar through neutral Spain if they wanted to.


Here's the rub. Would Spain stay neutral if Britain started putting an invasion force on Gibraltar? I think Spain and Germany would have been smart enough to carefully watch for such British troop deployments. In real life and gameplay terms using Gibraltar as some short of beachhead is to restictive to try. Spain would not actually have much front to defend. Also you have to realize Spain would now have Germany's full military support, because at this point Spain would no longer be neutral. If this took place before Barbarossa when Germany has a lot of power sitting around this would be a suicide mission for the Brits. They would end up giving Gibraltar to the Axis because Germany will now have permission to occupy lower Spain.

Hitler let 100,000 British soldiers evacuate France as a token of good will. Since that backfired the first time, on a second attempt to destroy the brtitish army camped on Gibraltar I think there would be no second thoughts. When you seriously think about the validity of attacking Spain via Gibraltar you will realize why it was never attempted. British command was smart enough not to provoke the Spainish by putting only what was needed on Gibraltar.

Toward the end of the war when Germany did not have much strength and was occupied by the Russians, the British could attempt this and maybe pull it off. But you got to ask yourself why? Spain stayed neutral the whole war so why would the Allies attack them?

So its my opinion such a strat would be foolish to attempt early in the war, and pointless to attempt late in the war. Which is why I like mikes idea. In gameplay it forces the British player to use Gibraltar realistically and not as a free beach-head. Portugal on the other hand is another problem but just because that exists does not mean mikes Gibraltar idea has no merit. In fact in my mod it would work out perfectly since Portugal is not defenseless and also unfreezes Spain if attacked.

(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 12
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 7:19:35 PM   
Hard Sarge


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while the talk about if and what not on Spain, is interesting, I think you guys are missing part of the point in the beginning of the post

why can the Allied fighters fly into France and the Germen fighters can not fly into England

which as you state, the 109 had a short range, but then, so did the Hurricane and the Spit

so if the range/speed of the GE fighter is a 1, so should the Allies

(by the time the US comes in, the Allies should of been able to reseach the range to what it starts at)



_____________________________


(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 13
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 7:23:56 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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Lebatron,

Neither in game nor in the real war would it make sense to attack Spain prior to the Germans having attacked Russia - so I am not sure why you bring that up. It holds no relevance to the discussion that I can see unless I missed someone suggesting such an early attack on Spain.

As far as I am concerned the WA didnt consider going through Spain instead of landing in France because it was obvious to everyone that the terrain would make it too slow and costly. If they wanted to fight through a mountain range they might as well have continued the push up through the Alps from Italy. Thats the real war actual problem with going through Spain.

The only reasonable way to model this in GGWaW is to split Spain into two territories as far as I am concerned. This also has the virtue of being more geographically accurate as Spain is actually a large country. Just compare to Italy being 2 areas and France being 3.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 14
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 7:28:50 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

while the talk about if and what not on Spain, is interesting, I think you guys are missing part of the point in the beginning of the post

why can the Allied fighters fly into France and the Germen fighters can not fly into England

which as you state, the 109 had a short range, but then, so did the Hurricane and the Spit

so if the range/speed of the GE fighter is a 1, so should the Allies

(by the time the US comes in, the Allies should of been able to reseach the range to what it starts at)


The range/speed of the WA FTR is also 1 at the start of the game. Noone mentioned this directly in this thread so I can see why it might be confusing for someone that hasnt played the game.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 15
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 7:32:06 PM   
toddtreadway

 

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The range of all fighters is one at the beginning of the game, with the exception of Japan which gets range three fighters. Allied fighters can't fly into France from Britain at the beginning.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 16
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 7:34:53 PM   
toddtreadway

 

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In regard to the Spain/Gibraltar debate, I think Lebatron has a point in re to a buildup in Gibraltar (or Portugal for that matter).

Would it be possible to put an inverted garrison requirement into a space? I.e., no more than three ground units in Gibraltar/Portugal or Spain enters on the Axis side?

(in reply to toddtreadway)
Post #: 17
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/28/2005 9:20:24 PM   
mcaryf

 

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I do not see any great problem wrt Spain/Gib I think it would be sensible to both stop Gib being a staging post into Spain and to give Spain extra regions. They are not an either or and both make sense.

You only have to look at what happened in Operation Torch. The Allied invading armada for North Africa was not staged through Gib the ships came directly from both the UK and US. Gib is just not big enough to hold one GGWAW sized unit (=100,000 men) let alone more.

Coming back to the original post, if there is concern about German aircraft getting into the Irish Sea too early then you can always make the English coastline there a two border and the Scottish a one. That way the UK can get its units into the Irish Sea with move 1 from Scotland but Germany cannot fly through from the continent without expending 3 movement points. The English Channel should be a region by itself with borders "type 5" all round (with a border from Penzance across to France) so that planes can fly over the borders without cost but land units cannot pass.

Regards

Mike

(in reply to toddtreadway)
Post #: 18
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/29/2005 11:23:07 AM   
a511


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alone mcaryf's line of thinking, i wonder whether it works under the followings:

1) raise GER and WA fhts range to 2;
2) make the border btn Scotland and English channel into a double-line border (that cost a movement of 2), but remain the England and English channel one a single-line border;
3) make the coastline btn England and Irish Sea a double-line border (mcaryf's idea).

in this way:

1) GER can start the Battle of Britain in turn 2 ;
2) make the Scotland-version-Sealion a bit more difficult (no more GER para-drop in Scotland);
3) GER fhts can't rush into Irish Sea unless tech-up.

AN

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 19
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/29/2005 12:01:11 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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A simpler solution if you want to facilitate BoB inb 1940 would be to:
- Make North Sea 9 to England cost 0 MP
- Make North Sea 9 to W. France cost 0 MP
- Retain England to North Sea 9 as 1 MP
- Retain W. France to North Sea 9 as 1 MP

There will still be some sideeffects - but I believe they will be a good deal less severe.

In coding the change goes like this in regions40.txt (the change being the two 5's in the SIDE line of code.

REGION,26,North Atlantic 9,PLAYER_UN,France,TER_SEA
MOVECOST,2
POP,0
FORT,0
CONNECT,14,21,23,25,27,58,63
SIDE,1,1,2,5,1,4,5
UNIT,HEAVY FLEET,1
UNIT,LIGHT FLEET,1
UNIT,TRANSPORT FLEET,1


If this is what Mike suggested previously I apologise for misunderstanding. I just read his suggestion as changing the cost in both directions which is what I said would cause all kinds of problems. Just substitude with the North Sea if you prefer that side of the crossing arrow or make both possible.

With respect to making Scotland-North Sea cost 2 MP. Then you would need to change both those areas to 2MP areas. This would have the effect of making the North Sea - North Atlantic 9 cost 2 MP too as the North Atlantic 9 is already a 2MP border. This is because its not the border that is noted as costing 2MP but rather each territory and then the effect is a 2MP border is both terriories are marked as such. Personally, I aim to advocate making Scotland rough once the next patch draws near as I feel that will give the right balance.

< Message edited by JanSorensen -- 11/29/2005 12:03:25 PM >

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Rough Scotland - 11/29/2005 5:39:43 PM   
toddtreadway

 

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I think making Scotland rough is a good idea Jan.

How about making a ferry between France and London?

< Message edited by toddtreadway -- 11/29/2005 5:40:15 PM >

(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 21
RE: Rough Scotland - 11/29/2005 8:01:17 PM   
Lebatron


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A few weeks ago I shared with mcaryf my new ideas for V2.2 of Franco's Alliance and changing the border of England was one of them. I think you guys will like it. The mod has been done for a while I just need to write up a detailed readme that I'm working on at the moment. Perhaps I will finish before work today.

(in reply to toddtreadway)
Post #: 22
RE: Rough Scotland - 11/29/2005 8:49:34 PM   
toddtreadway

 

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BTW, the ferry idea would allow air units to move across with a movement of 1, but would not allow ground units to move across unless both sides were controlled.

That brings up another issue, which is that I think ferries should be subject to opfire if there are enemy units in the sea zone the ferry passes through.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 23
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/30/2005 12:30:47 AM   
silodhlehan

 

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I often think germany lost the war because of the lousy range of their early fighters. I think they had 10-15 min over london, it's not far to drive, no real development of drop tanks. I remember reading about a wooden prototype.

They outnumbered the uk in the air by some 2500 to 600 and couldn't bring them to heel. I think it was a good move to limit the range. Or have it like the ship battles where most fighters don't find targets.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 24
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/30/2005 1:26:43 AM   
mcaryf

 

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Hi Jesse (Lebatron)

As I recall your issue with the English borders was to do with the possibility that British fighters and bombers could reach Spain one way and Finland the other rather than the Battle of Britain problem.

I guess there are always likely to be some anomalies when you try to compress the whole world into a finite number of regions. My concern becomes more active when the anomalies start to impact some well known events like the Luftwaffe raiding UK from Norway or the Battle of Britain. Obviously UK did not raid Spain since they were not a belligerent and I do not think they ever raided Finland because they had some sympathy with them trying to get their territory back from Russia.

With respect to Jan's idea, it would be an improvement. However, I know another WW2 vet who was in the RAF and conducted night attacks in his fighter infiltrating the German bomber streams as they returned from the Blitz on London. He then shot up the German air bases in France as the bombers were landing so as to get a good number of planes damaged. So I would not like to see the Brits stopped from going the other way!

Just as an aside this guy learnt all the German night time recognition signals (flares) and wrote papers about it to the Air Ministry. This brought him to the attention of the Code Breakers at Bletchley Park and he ended up as being the Airforce link to Ultra in Italy providing breifings on the latest intelligence to Monty, Alexander, Spaatz etc. He later became a Professor of Egyptology decrypting hieroglyphs. He came to my house last year to give a talk on the Battle of Britain to a local Military History discussion group that I run. He had been PA to Keith Park who commanded the British Fighters in SE England during BOB and he gave me a photocopy of Keith Park's final report/assessment of the battle - as you see Military History and wargaming are my two hobbies.

Regards

Mike

(in reply to silodhlehan)
Post #: 25
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/30/2005 8:25:58 AM   
JanSorensen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcaryf
With respect to Jan's idea, it would be an improvement. However, I know another WW2 vet who was in the RAF and conducted night attacks in his fighter infiltrating the German bomber streams as they returned from the Blitz on London. He then shot up the German air bases in France as the bombers were landing so as to get a good number of planes damaged. So I would not like to see the Brits stopped from going the other way!


Mike,

I think you missed the point of my suggestion. Going from England to W. France would cost 1 - just like going from W. France to England would. Try the change to the regions file I posted and have a look in game at the effect.

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 26
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/30/2005 9:20:41 AM   
WanderingHead

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

A simpler solution if you want to facilitate BoB inb 1940 would be to:
- Make North Sea 9 to England cost 0 MP
- Make North Sea 9 to W. France cost 0 MP
- Retain England to North Sea 9 as 1 MP
- Retain W. France to North Sea 9 as 1 MP



The asymmetry, and general anomaly from all other movement (nowhere else is it free), would be quite confusing.

(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 27
RE: German fighters over Britain - 11/30/2005 12:45:29 PM   
JanSorensen

 

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The asymetrical solution is indeed an oddity. I am not suggesting this as an official fix though - mere as something a mod could do. I think that difference is importent.

Its incorrect that nothing cost 0 MP though. Flying from an island to the surrounding sea-area (and vice-versa) costs 0 MP too. Thats the very reason its possible to make this change.

(in reply to WanderingHead)
Post #: 28
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