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Fast Transport Bug???

 
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Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 8:24:42 PM   
Tanaka


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Version 1.795

Turn 1: Pick up troops from Tulagi and bring back to Rabaul.




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< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/22/2005 8:37:49 PM >


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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 8:25:44 PM   
Tanaka


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Next turn: Fleet never left but troops magically appear...




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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 8:29:48 PM   
rtrapasso


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Looks like they left and picked up the troops and returned - notice that the ENDUR went from 4750 to 4390. Not sure the hex distance but it looks like a 260 mile round trip. Maybe they shaved some mileage off this (should be more than that each way!!)

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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 8:36:08 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Looks like they left and picked up the troops and returned - notice that the ENDUR went from 4750 to 4390. Not sure the hex distance but it looks like a 260 mile round trip. Maybe they shaved some mileage off this (should be more than that each way!!)


20 hexes in one turn??? Even with used op points???

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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 8:38:56 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Looks like they left and picked up the troops and returned - notice that the ENDUR went from 4750 to 4390. Not sure the hex distance but it looks like a 260 mile round trip. Maybe they shaved some mileage off this (should be more than that each way!!)


20 hexes in one turn??? Even with used op points???


Yeah - results like this might explain how bombardment TFs can manage to do what they do. They literally are using warp drive so they can move 5X as fast as they are supposed to (the distance is 20 hexes, and this TF only steamed about 4 hexes worth, and again they did already use up OP points as you have pointed out.)


EDIT - Perhaps under certain circumstances, the IJN First Turn movement bonus gets turned on again?

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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 8:44:45 PM   
rtrapasso


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Thinking on this, this might explain a lot - like the results that PzB got in his attack on Nomad. This needs looking into...

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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 8:47:16 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Thinking on this, this might explain a lot - like the results that PzB got in his attack on Nomad. This needs looking into...


I did the same command to pick up troops at Nedini and the same fleet moved only 9 hexes to Nedini...

I will send a save to Mike Wood...

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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 10:06:22 PM   
jwilkerson


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For what it is worth - I have done a whole pile of "Fast Trans" evacutations in my games as of late ( my three PBEMs as Japanese are in Dec 42, June 43 and Oct 43 ) ... and at ranges above one day's steaming my cycle is usually something like.

1. Refuel and unload TF at home base changing speed to cruise
2. Plot pick up mission changing speed to full
3. Watch TF go a few hexes out from home base and "line up " the run into the target pick up hex.
4. TF zooms to pickup hex - picking up unit and returning to home base with unit aboard no unloading.

Repeat as desired.

So I haven't seen exactly what you're seeing - but the step 4 can be more than 12 hexes - in my example in question ( Admiralty to Dobodura ) it is more like 16. But the cycle takes more than 1-2 turns. All my games are 1.6 ( current production patch ).



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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 10:12:15 PM   
testarossa


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DDs can have speed of 38 knots, which in game terms is 7 hexes per phase. may be this is a real speed even if it shows 6(3) on TF screen?

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RE: Fast Transport Bug - 11/22/2005 10:56:19 PM   
jwilkerson


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Not quite fast enough to explain my example - not nearly enough to explain Tanaka's example ... you'll need to super-charge that thing !



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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:05:24 PM   
Halsey


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The "reason" for this, since everybody has forgotten the manual, is.

A TF gets to move at 2x its speed when returning to its home base, if it's within x2 range of its speed allowance.
This is why Bombardment TF can't be caught.
This is also why submarines can't seem to catch Transport TF's.
All returning TF's get to warp back to their home port.

Maybe this needs to be done away with.
Instead a constant TF speed should be applied. No "bonus" move for going home.

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:10:39 PM   
Bradley7735


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The "reason" for this, since everybody has forgotten the manual, is.

A TF gets to move at 2x its speed when returning to its home base, if it's within x2 range of its speed allowance.
This is why Bombardment TF can't be caught.
This is also why submarines can't seem to catch Transport TF's.
All returning TF's get to warp back to their home port.

Maybe this needs to be done away with.
Instead a constant TF speed should be applied. No "bonus" move for going home.


Huh??!?!?! That's new to me. I guess I missed it in the manual. I don't think i've seen it's effects either. i have never noticed a difference between outbound and inbound task forces.

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:11:50 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The "reason" for this, since everybody has forgotten the manual, is.

A TF gets to move at 2x its speed when returning to its home base, if it's within x2 range of its speed allowance.
This is why Bombardment TF can't be caught.
This is also why submarines can't seem to catch Transport TF's.
All returning TF's get to warp back to their home port.

Maybe this needs to be done away with.
Instead a constant TF speed should be applied. No "bonus" move for going home.


Wasn't aware of this. If it is true, there is no real reason for it, and it should be done away with - it doesn't make sense ship speed should magically increase!


Even if this is true - the example gave Tanaka shouldn't happen. It showed it only moved 260 miles, and in reality it moved over 1000 miles (looking at the endurance figures) -

Figuring in some time loss due to OP points used - this is an average speed of about 50 mph - similar to what Nomad was complaining about (assuming it took place in a 24 hour period, and not just overnight. If it was done in a night phase, the speed jumps to almost 100 mph!)

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/22/2005 11:17:29 PM >

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:15:08 PM   
Halsey


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Been like this since UV.

It should done away with.
Then Bombardment TF's "could" be caught, and subs might get more contacts/attacks on Transport TF's.

The example at the top may be an abnormality of the home base movement bonus.
Only when a ship refuels in the TF does it seem to mess up the bonus move.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 11/22/2005 11:22:10 PM >


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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:39:55 PM   
testarossa


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On the first screen it shows that TF has to travel 22 hexes, 11 to Tulagi and 11 back.

660 nautical miles with speed 38 is 17.37 hours. So for return trip it has only 6.63 hours. To cover 660 miles it will have to move with 99.52 knots speed. this is 2.62 times over the actual speed. All this considering that loading didn't take any time.

And here is the manual. May be there is something between the lines there, but i fail to see it.




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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:40:11 PM   
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Thanks Halsey ! - see - we need you - you can't go !!!

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:42:51 PM   
jwilkerson


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Maybe the magic words are "sprint away from DH" ... regardless of meaning - the actions on the board seem to agree with what Halsey is saying - this explains why my units may take more than one turn to get to the target but only spend one turn going in - picking up and returning to base.

Though how Tanaka gets all the way down there and back in one turn is even a step farther that what I'm normally seeing ...



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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/22/2005 11:59:56 PM   
rtrapasso


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Well, if you calculate in the OPS points (180), the TF had 19.68 hours to move 1320 miles, or had to move at an average speed of 67.1 mph (i am assuming the hexes are statute miles, not nautical ones). Again, assuming ZERO load times for the troops.

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:24:16 AM   
testarossa


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It has to be nautical miles, because vessel speed is in knots, and knot is 1 nautical mile per hour.

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Post #: 19
RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:28:48 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: testarossa

It has to be nautical miles, because vessel speed is in knots, and knot is 1 nautical mile per hour.



There was a recent thread about this. While SHIP speeds are in knots, aircraft speed and (apparently) maps are in statute miles, not nautical miles. This (of course) is a source of continuing confusion...

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Post #: 20
RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:35:08 AM   
Halsey


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I've noticed this "sprinting" in many circumstances.
That's why I've always set my destination as the new home base.
Then the TF will zoom there. After it's unloaded, change the home port to its next destination. Zoom!!! They take off again.

I've seen a Trans TF returning from Moresby to Cairns move 9 hexes.
That's pretty darn fast for a bunch of 12 knotters.
It affects all TF's.

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:41:17 AM   
jwilkerson


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Ok well I went and did 1 test ( 1.6 i.e. current production patch ).

Used Coral Sea scenario.

Shut down everything except 1 TF carrying 3rd Kure SNLF. Had them go to Lunga and unload.

Then pulledd 6 DD Fast Rans TF from Rabaul ( putting Tanaka in charge of course ! )

And had them do full speed pick up of the 3rd Kure SNLF at Lunga.


Took 3 turns !? End of first turn the DDs were at Shortlands no troops aboard, heading SE ...

End of second turn, they were at Shortlands with 3rd Kure SNLF aboard heading NW ...

End of third turn they were at Rabaul, 3rd Kure SNLF unloaded at Rabaul ... 6 DD TF very low on fuel.

That didn't seem out of line. So this begs the question whether 1.7.9.5 is causing this difference between T's test and my test !?



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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:44:48 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

There was a recent thread about this. While SHIP speeds are in knots, aircraft speed and (apparently) maps are in statute miles, not nautical miles. This (of course) is a source of continuing confusion...


I was causing that "units" thread ...

AB did his map in statute. But documentation says stock is in nautical - though no human has verified this.

Ship speeds are definitely in knots.

Airspeeds are definitely in MPH ( which causes them to be too fast relative to the stock map - and also relative to the ships on both AB and stock )

But - I don't think this can explain Tanaka's results !!!



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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:45:03 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Ok well I went and did 1 test ( 1.6 i.e. current production patch ).

Used Coral Sea scenario.

Shut down everything except 1 TF carrying 3rd Kure SNLF. Had them go to Lunga and unload.

Then pulledd 6 DD Fast Rans TF from Rabaul ( putting Tanaka in charge of course ! )

And had them do full speed pick up of the 3rd Kure SNLF at Lunga.


Took 3 turns !? End of first turn the DDs were at Shortlands no troops aboard, heading SE ...

End of second turn, they were at Shortlands with 3rd Kure SNLF aboard heading NW ...

End of third turn they were at Rabaul, 3rd Kure SNLF unloaded at Rabaul ... 6 DD TF very low on fuel.

That didn't seem out of line. So this begs the question whether 1.7.9.5 is causing this difference between T's test and my test !?




Try it again but with similiar op points already spent...

In other words send them on a mission, have them come back, replentish, and then send them on the FT mission...

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:46:41 AM   
testarossa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

The "reason" for this, since everybody has forgotten the manual, is.

A TF gets to move at 2x its speed when returning to its home base, if it's within x2 range of its speed allowance.


Is it in the manual? I can't find it.


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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 12:53:57 AM   
testarossa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Airspeeds are definitely in MPH ( which causes them to be too fast relative to the stock map - and also relative to the ships on both AB and stock )


So for CHS map is in statute, aircrafts are in statute miles, so the only thing to fix is to convert knots to statute miles per hour for ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
But - I don't think this can explain Tanaka's results !!!


Looks like a bug.

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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 1:05:54 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

Try it again but with similiar op points already spent...

In other words send them on a mission, have them come back, replentish, and then send them on the FT mission...



Ok tried that. Same result. In more detail ... Coral Sea Scenario [ stock ... patch 1.6 ]

1. Sent 2 DD on fast tran mission from Shortlands to Lunga to "load up" the target hex .. they carried down the 3rd Construction Bn, this took 2 turns.

2. While the above was happening the 6 DD force at Rabaul made 2 supply runs to Shortlands and back ( full speed runs ) refueling after each run.

3. After the second supply run .. the 6 DD were then ordered(full speed), after refueling to go pick up 3rd Constuction at Lunga and return to Rabaul, this took 3 turns as before.

4. End of turn 1, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading SE no unit aboard.

5. End of turn 2, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading NW, 3rd Const Bn aboard.

6. End of turn 3, the 6 DD are at Rabaul, the 3rd Cons is unloaded , the 6 DD are very low on fuel.

S0 .. I guess either I need to test with 1.7.9.5 or T needs to test with 1.6 .. something is different !!!

Hey T, have you tried your test again - i.e. does it repeat for you ? Or was it just a magic one time event ?





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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 1:15:29 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

Try it again but with similiar op points already spent...

In other words send them on a mission, have them come back, replentish, and then send them on the FT mission...



Ok tried that. Same result. In more detail ... Coral Sea Scenario [ stock ... patch 1.6 ]

1. Sent 2 DD on fast tran mission from Shortlands to Lunga to "load up" the target hex .. they carried down the 3rd Construction Bn, this took 2 turns.

2. While the above was happening the 6 DD force at Rabaul made 2 supply runs to Shortlands and back ( full speed runs ) refueling after each run.

3. After the second supply run .. the 6 DD were then ordered(full speed), after refueling to go pick up 3rd Constuction at Lunga and return to Rabaul, this took 3 turns as before.

4. End of turn 1, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading SE no unit aboard.

5. End of turn 2, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading NW, 3rd Const Bn aboard.

6. End of turn 3, the 6 DD are at Rabaul, the 3rd Cons is unloaded , the 6 DD are very low on fuel.

S0 .. I guess either I need to test with 1.7.9.5 or T needs to test with 1.6 .. something is different !!!

Hey T, have you tried your test again - i.e. does it repeat for you ? Or was it just a magic one time event ?






ive seen it more than once. usually a ft group that has made an ft run and replentished then sent back out on ft run with op points used. try to upgrade to 1.795...


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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 4:31:31 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

try to upgrade to 1.795...


Ok finally got a chance to apply 1.7.9.5 to my stock test instance.

Same result. Coral Sea scenario.

1. Let both pre-existing TFs at shortlands prroceed to Lunga to unload. Stood everything else on both sides down.

2. While the above was happening formed 6 DD force at Rabaul and made supply run to Shortlands and back ( full speed run ).

3. After the supply run .. the 6 DD were then ordered(full speed), after refueling to go pick up 3rd Kure SNLF at Lunga and return to Rabaul, this took 3 turns as before.

4. End of turn 1, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading SE no unit aboard.

5. End of turn 2, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading NW, 3rd Kure SNLF aboard.

6. End of turn 3, the 6 DD are at Rabaul, the 3rd Kure SNLF is unloaded , the 6 DD are very low on fuel.

So .. this means you and I are doing something different - we would have to go key stroke by key stroke to determine difference, but at this point not clear that it is a 1.7.9.5 problem.

Just in case the difference is in this area. WHen I am doing pickup - I click on "load troops only" ... then click on "pick up" .. then sort and click on the base name. I never click on a destination because selecting the troops to be picked up - does that for me.

Do you follow above key stroke sequence or something different ?





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RE: Fast Transport Bug??? - 11/23/2005 4:37:19 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

try to upgrade to 1.795...


Ok finally got a chance to apply 1.7.9.5 to my stock test instance.

Same result. Coral Sea scenario.

1. Let both pre-existing TFs at shortlands prroceed to Lunga to unload. Stood everything else on both sides down.

2. While the above was happening formed 6 DD force at Rabaul and made supply run to Shortlands and back ( full speed run ).

3. After the supply run .. the 6 DD were then ordered(full speed), after refueling to go pick up 3rd Kure SNLF at Lunga and return to Rabaul, this took 3 turns as before.

4. End of turn 1, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading SE no unit aboard.

5. End of turn 2, the 6 DD are at Shortlands heading NW, 3rd Kure SNLF aboard.

6. End of turn 3, the 6 DD are at Rabaul, the 3rd Kure SNLF is unloaded , the 6 DD are very low on fuel.

So .. this means you and I are doing something different - we would have to go key stroke by key stroke to determine difference, but at this point not clear that it is a 1.7.9.5 problem.

Just in case the difference is in this area. WHen I am doing pickup - I click on "load troops only" ... then click on "pick up" .. then sort and click on the base name. I never click on a destination because selecting the troops to be picked up - does that for me.

Do you follow above key stroke sequence or something different ?






nope i do load troops...everything else is the same...

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