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Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795...

 
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Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/21/2005 10:54:21 PM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

One month ago I posted the thread:

"Leo's ASW TEST (and scenario) - problems spotted!"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=967245&mpage=1


The tests were done with v1.70 BETA and now I compared results with new v1.795 BETA that contains changes in air "ASW" routines...


Here is what I got in v1.70 BETA:




NOTE:
My original typo (last 0 was "lost") - last two numbers in table should be "10000ft" and "20000ft"!



Attached at the end of this message is what I get with v1.795 BETA.


Now... I know that this is just one test (relationship between number of submarines sighted and selected altitude) but it seems that number of sightings is still at least 10x too high... dunno...


Leo "Apollo11"





Attachment (1)

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 12:20:32 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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Status: offline 		The model assumes the sub is on the surface, that's the problem. As an aside, ever wonder why there is no submerged speed value?

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 12:55:49 AM   
Bradley7735


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Status: offline 		Hi Leo,

Have you counted the number of attacks and the number of successful attacks? My understanding of the code changes is that the number of attacks and successful attacks have been reduced. Not necessarily the number of sightings. Also, I think that a sighting report won't necessarily put an enemy sub on the map. (like you can see the sighting report, but looking at the map doesn't always show a sub.)

I haven't tested this, but I think it's the attacks that have been tweeked. Not the actual sightings.

bc

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 1:05:27 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Leo,

Have you counted the number of attacks and the number of successful attacks? My understanding of the code changes is that the number of attacks and successful attacks have been reduced. Not necessarily the number of sightings. Also, I think that a sighting report won't necessarily put an enemy sub on the map. (like you can see the sighting report, but looking at the map doesn't always show a sub.)

I haven't tested this, but I think it's the attacks that have been tweeked. Not the actual sightings.

bc

If I understand correctly, the sightings probability is now a function of platform altiude. This is in addition to the reduction in hit probabilities as a function of commander rating.

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 1:07:05 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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Status: offline 		Have you tried the test vs just one sub?

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:45:37 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Have you counted the number of attacks and the number of successful attacks? My understanding of the code changes is that the number of attacks and successful attacks have been reduced. Not necessarily the number of sightings.


The number of attacks I did not count but it was much lower than with prevoous versions (i.e. WitP v1.795 lowered this)...


quote:


Also, I think that a sighting report won't necessarily put an enemy sub on the map. (like you can see the sighting report, but looking at the map doesn't always show a sub.)


I counted the subs placed on map thet were discoverd by enemy side.

Therefore sub sighting = sub on the map.


quote:


I haven't tested this, but I think it's the attacks that have been tweeked. Not the actual sightings.


Hmmm... might be...


Leo "Apollo11"


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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:46:53 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

If I understand correctly, the sightings probability is now a function of platform altiude. This is in addition to the reduction in hit probabilities as a function of commander rating.


This is what I thought as well... but my test didn't show this as much as I was hoping... <SIGH>


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 7
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:49:08 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Have you tried the test vs just one sub?


Nope... but it should not matter at all...


I used this (36 submarines in total - number of sighted I gave in my initial post here in thsi thread):




Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:50:06 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Have you tried the test vs just one sub?


Be interesting to see how many of the aircraft on search spot the only sub in the vicinity. If more than one aircraft do spot the puppy, well then matey, we actually do have an obvious case of overspotting. Seems to be getting worse than better since I mentioned the sub spotting was too high during UV. Hmmm


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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:53:01 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Have you tried the test vs just one sub?


Nope... but it should not matter at all...


I used this (36 submarines in total - number of sighted I gave in my initial post here in thsi thread):




Leo "Apollo11"

A picture is worth a thousand words! Pfffft F--k that' ridiculously absurd. Man this is way off. Maybe two or three in a concentration like that may have been spotted on a perfect visibility day with flat sea.

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:55:45 PM   
DFalcon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


A picture is worth a thousand words! Pfffft F--k that' ridiculously absurd. Man this is way off. Maybe two or three in a concentration like that may have been spotted on a perfect visibility day with flat sea.


Ron, that is the allied player turn so he can see all the subs.

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Post #: 11
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 3:56:01 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

A picture is worth a thousand words! Pfffft F--k that' ridiculously absurd. Man this is way off. Maybe two or three in a concentration like that may have been spotted on a perfect visibility day with flat sea.


Yes I know... and it's just 9 aircraft on search... 10x too many sightings IMHO...


BTW, please read in detail my tests (I did all other relationship tests: range, altitude, percentage):

"Leo's ASW TEST (and scenario) - problems spotted!"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=967245&mpage=1


Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 12
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:00:31 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DFalcon

Ron, that is the allied player turn so he can see all the subs.


I did my tests with FoW = ON and number of sightings varied - please look at the numbers below...


Here is what Allied player sees:




Here is what Japanese player sees (after his best search result):




Here is what I got in v1.70 BETA:




NOTE:
My original typo (last 0 was "lost") - last two numbers in table should be "10000ft" and "20000ft"!



Here is what I got in new v1.795 BETA:




Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
Clarification added.

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 11/22/2005 4:11:39 PM >

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:02:08 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DFalcon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


A picture is worth a thousand words! Pfffft F--k that' ridiculously absurd. Man this is way off. Maybe two or three in a concentration like that may have been spotted on a perfect visibility day with flat sea.


Ron, that is the allied player turn so he can see all the subs.


Really!? LOL Yeah, guess you are right . Maybe the right picture is worth something. Still, the chance is way too high according to everything from gut feelings to test results.


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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:04:43 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Any results or comments on the difference in attacks or the effect of the messages since the previous beta?

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:07:14 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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The TEST ASW scenario is here (it is here for past 30+ days when I first made it) and all can test - please do download it and do test it!


Download Link:

Leo ASW TEST Scenario #120.zip (10-16-2005)


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 16
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:10:36 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Any results or comments on the difference in attacks or the effect of the messages since the previous beta?


This test of mine was sightings only (i.e. to show how many submarines were discovered in most favored situation).

But what I can tell is that number of actual attacks that happen after the submarines were sighted was much smaller (I didn't count it though) - that's good!

What is still not good IMHO, is that way too many submarines are sighted even when search ASW aircraft is flying very high (10x too many IMHO)...


Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 17
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:40:09 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		Leo,

try it with not quite so many subs saturating the area around the base. (example, try 5-10 subs located at various distances from the base)

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Post #: 18
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:48:58 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

try it with not quite so many subs saturating the area around the base. (example, try 5-10 subs located at various distances from the base)


But what would that accomplish?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
If you run my scenario you can see how search is done in WitP - clockwise concentric circles (from indide towards out)!

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:52:06 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

try it with not quite so many subs saturating the area around the base. (example, try 5-10 subs located at various distances from the base)


But what would that accomplish?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
If you run my scenario you can see how search is done in WitP - clockwise concentric circles (from indide towards out)!


Good question. I was thinking just use one sub as a target and see how many planes of the search pattern spot it but this is actually impossible to do. My bad there. If we could determine how many of the planes spot the one sub it would have been immensely useful in illustrating the relative ease of spotting a sub.


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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 4:57:04 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Good question. I was thinking just use one sub as a target and see how many planes of the search pattern spot it but this is actually impossible to do. My bad there. If we could determine how many of the planes spot the one sub it would have been immensely useful in illustrating the relative ease of spotting a sub.


That's impossible to answer I think...

BTW, here is what I got in WitP BETA v1.70 when i wanted to see relationship between submarines sighted and numbers of aircrfat used for ASW air search) - this is from my thread 1 month ago:




Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 21
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 5:01:38 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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Status: offline 		I know! What about using an airgroup comprised of only 1 aircraft on 100% search vs lets say 30 subs located 360 degrees around the base. Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 5:03:51 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I know! What about using an airgroup comprised of only 1 aircraft on 100% search vs lets say 30 subs located 360 degrees around the base. Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!


Aha!!!

Good idea - I will try it when I get home - thanks Ron!


Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 23
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 5:08:03 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!


Hey, this is WITP! I'm betting it spots most of them!

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 5:09:23 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!


Hey, this is WITP! I'm betting it spots most of them!


I'm curious as hell.


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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 5:10:32 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11


But what would that accomplish?



having so many subs saturating the waters immediately surrounding the base appear to be nerfing your figures. Also, a more realistic deployment is more easily comparible to a real life scenario.

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RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 5:32:30 PM   
DFalcon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


having so many subs saturating the waters immediately surrounding the base appear to be nerfing your figures. Also, a more realistic deployment is more easily comparible to a real life scenario.



I wondered this myself, does this set up create the equivalent of the uber CAP scenario where the large number of checks involved breaks the math. In my PBEM game although sub spotting is high it is not on the order of magnitude these test reveal. That could be selective observation or a sign the test is not indicative.

Wish I had time to test more, Leo has set up a great tool for this.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 27
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 6:36:00 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

But what would that accomplish?


having so many subs saturating the waters immediately surrounding the base appear to be nerfing your figures. Also, a more realistic deployment is more easily comparible to a real life scenario.


I know what are you getting at but it is not the case here at all...

The "pattern" of sighted submarines is not circle - the sighted submarines are sighted all over area (and in 99% of cases nearest ones are never discovered)!!!

Please just run the scenario yourself and see!


BTW, like I said in one of my previous posts I think I know how the search works in WitP now - it is very simple spiral starting from center and then clockwise increase the range (you can actually see it happening - the sighted submarines "picture" the spiral)!

So... number of submarines I have in my scenario is irrelevant because for each HEX the search aircraft is in the new check is made - if the check is passed then the submarine is sighted - it is of no relevance if there are 1 or 10 or 100 submarines there - every HEX is checked inside range in clockwise spiral...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 28
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 6:39:38 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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Status: offline 		Uh ohhh. So potentially one aircraft can spot everything if you are correct in your "spiral" assumption.

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Post #: 29
RE: Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795... - 11/22/2005 6:43:40 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Uh ohhh. So potentially one aircraft can spot everything if you are correct in your "spiral" assumption.


In theory - yes!

I am at home now and will conduct the test in few minutes...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 30
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