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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> US Marine Corps Leadership Page: [1]
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US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/21/2005 9:02:10 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
For the CHS, I have been working on cleaning up the leader database for US land forces. There are 45 Marine ground units in the stock WitP database, but only three of them have historic commanders assigned. The rest have fictional leaders apparently selected by a random name-generation program. To my pleasant surprise, I was able to find 40 of the actual leaders from official sources available online, including all of the raider, parachute and defense battalions, two of the armored amphibious battalions and the corps artillery. Here are my remaining challenges. Any help you can provide is appreciated:

Unknown Leaders:
Q1: The Samoan Marine Reserve Battalion
Q2: 1st Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion
Q3: 2nd Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion
Q4: 3rd Marine Armored Amphibious Battalion – I found one reference to this unit as a provisional battalion in training at the time of the Iwo Jima campaign, but no leader.

Should these units be removed from the game?
Q5: 4th Marine Parachute Battalion – was disbanded before it was fully-formed.
Q6: 1st Marine Medium Tank Battalion – was this the training command at Camp Pendleton? The only Marine Tank Battalions I have identified are those inherent to each of the six divisions (1st tank battalion = 1st Division, etc.).
Q7: 13th Marine Defense Battalion – according to Marine records, this unit spent the entire war defending Guantanamo, Cuba.

Q8: Leadership Dilemma: What to do about Barrett?
MG Turnage is the initial 3rd Marine Division commander in WitP. However, he deployed to Guadalcanal as the Assistant Division Commander. The division commander was MG C.D. Barrett. Before the division’s first campaign (Bougainville) Barrett was promoted to become the first commander of the I/III Amphibious Corps. But he died within a month of a cerebral hemorrhage, and Vandegrift replaced him. Should Barrett be included as the 3rd Division commander, the I/III Corps Commander, or excluded from the database because he died of an accident before he commanded either unit in combat?

Q9: Unit Dilemma: How to handle the 5th and 6th Marine Divisions?
In order to fill out the late-war 5th and 6th Divisions the Marine Corps abolished all of the parachute battalions and raider battalions, which exist separately in WitP. The parachutists and raiders contributed one regiment apiece (about one-third of the total infantry) to each division. Since there is no mechanism to abolish or withdraw land units in WitP, does it make sense to cap the TO&E for the 5th and 6th divisions at 2/3rds of the infantry of the other Marine divisions to avoid double-counting? Is there a better way to approach this?

Miscellaneous Cleanup
I Amphibious Corps was renamed III Amphibious Corps in 1944. They are the same unit. In WitP they are treated as two separate headquarters. One should be removed.
The 708th and 780th US Army Amphibious Battalions are included as Marine units. They are listed as 8/45 reinforcements in the stock scenario, and 5/45 in CHS, but their actual arrival dates in the database are 431215 and 440701, respectively.


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Post #: 1
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/21/2005 9:39:07 PM   
Bradley7735


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Q5: should the para unit not be included? Well, my answer kind of depends on the answer to Q9. I say leave the raider and Para units in the game and reduce the TOE of the 5th & 6th divisions. It seems like there aren't enough allied para units in the game. Although, that's not a good excuse to keep it. I assume it was disbanded to help make the 5th or 6th? leave it in and reduce the TOE of the 5th & 6th.

Q7: I say "if it wasn't in the pacific, leave it out." this one should probably be taken out.

Q8: I say, leave him in. It looks like you're still looking for a couple of leaders. It's better to give him command of one of the unknowns than to just leave him out. I trust your judgement on this.

Q9: see Q5 above.

In regards to the I/III HQ's, I say remove the III HQ and rename the I to I/III. Both should not be in there if the 2nd is just the 1st being renamed.

Thanks for doing all of this. It makes the game better for all of us. (who use CHS)

_____________________________

The older I get, the better I was.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 2
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/21/2005 10:15:34 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
quote:

Q5: should the para unit not be included? Well, my answer kind of depends on the answer to Q9. I say leave the raider and Para units in the game and reduce the TOE of the 5th & 6th divisions. It seems like there aren't enough allied para units in the game. Although, that's not a good excuse to keep it. I assume it was disbanded to help make the 5th or 6th? leave it in and reduce the TOE of the 5th & 6th.


Bradley,
I'm not changing anything about the first three Parachute Battalions. They were deployed, and fought in the Pacific, until they were disbanded to fill out the 5th division. But as far as I can tell, the 4th battalion was never completely formed -- it certainly never deployed -- so based on the information I have right now, I'd recommend that it be removed from the database.

quote:


Q8: I say, leave him in. It looks like you're still looking for a couple of leaders. It's better to give him command of one of the unknowns than to just leave him out. I trust your judgement on this.


I need to clarify this question. I have identified plenty of leaders including all of the Marine leaders who commanded any one of the six divisions. The question with Barrett is: should he command the 3rd Division when it arrives in game, as he did historically; should he command the I/III Corps when it arrives in game, as he also did historically; or should he be left out of the database because he died before either of his commands saw combat?

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 3
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/21/2005 10:41:43 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8148
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

For the CHS, I have been working on cleaning up the leader database for US land forces. There are 45 Marine ground units in the stock WitP database, but only three of them have historic commanders assigned. The rest have fictional leaders apparently selected by a random name-generation program. To my pleasant surprise, I was able to find 40 of the actual leaders from official sources available online, including all of the raider, parachute and defense battalions, two of the armored amphibious battalions and the corps artillery. Here are my remaining challenges. Any help you can provide is appreciated:

Unknown Leaders:
Q1: The Samoan Marine Reserve Battalion
Q2: 1st Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion
Q3: 2nd Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion
Q4: 3rd Marine Armored Amphibious Battalion – I found one reference to this unit as a provisional battalion in training at the time of the Iwo Jima campaign, but no leader.


Q1-Q3: Sorry, can't help on leaders. Spent some time looking but found nothing.

Q4: On the 3rd Amphib Bn, U.S. Marine Corps World War II Order of Battle (Rottman) says:
IIIAC formed the 3d Armored Amphibian Tractor Battalion (Provisional) from elements of the 1st in mid-1944 for use at Pelieu and, later, Okinawa. It was initially equipped with one company of LVT(A)1 amphibian tanks and two of up-gunned LVT(A)4s. The 3d Battalion, along with assets of the 8th Amphibian Tractor Battalion, was re-designated the 20th Amphibian Truck Battalion in Aug, 45..
I'd leave it in.

quote:

Should these units be removed from the game?
Q5: 4th Marine Parachute Battalion – was disbanded before it was fully-formed.
Q6: 1st Marine Medium Tank Battalion – was this the training command at Camp Pendleton? The only Marine Tank Battalions I have identified are those inherent to each of the six divisions (1st tank battalion = 1st Division, etc.).
Q7: 13th Marine Defense Battalion – according to Marine records, this unit spent the entire war defending Guantanamo, Cuba.


Q5: I'd recommend leaving in the 4th Marine Para. This unit was deactivated prior to completion of jump training but it was in existence for 6 months and was at-least nearly formed. When deactivated it's troops joined the 1st-3rd Battalion Troops in the 26th, 27th, and 28th Regiments.

Q6: The 1st Corps Tank Battalion (Medium) is in addition to the 6 Divisional Tank Battalions. It was formed with Medium tanks at a time when the divisional battalions were equipped entirely with lights and was intended to provide support to them when needed. It existed for about 1 year, half of it at Noumea. When the divisional battalions began to transition to medium tanks, the Medium battalion was deactivated and it's assets passed to the divisional battalions:
Co A -> 3rd Bn
Co B -> 3rd Bn
Co C -> 2nd Bn
Co D -> 4th Bn (note, Co D arrived Noumea without tanks and was equiped with flame thrower tanks in the 4th Bn.

Q7: 100% correct. This unit was in Scenario 15 and was never properly vetted in CHS. In fact, I don't think any of the later-arriving Defense Battalions were.


quote:

Q8: Leadership Dilemma: What to do about Barrett?
MG Turnage is the initial 3rd Marine Division commander in WitP. However, he deployed to Guadalcanal as the Assistant Division Commander. The division commander was MG C.D. Barrett. Before the division’s first campaign (Bougainville) Barrett was promoted to become the first commander of the I/III Amphibious Corps. But he died within a month of a cerebral hemorrhage, and Vandegrift replaced him. Should Barrett be included as the 3rd Division commander, the I/III Corps Commander, or excluded from the database because he died of an accident before he commanded either unit in combat?


I could go either way but we are running short of leader slots so leaving him out seems attractive.


quote:

Q9: Unit Dilemma: How to handle the 5th and 6th Marine Divisions?
In order to fill out the late-war 5th and 6th Divisions the Marine Corps abolished all of the parachute battalions and raider battalions, which exist separately in WitP. The parachutists and raiders contributed one regiment apiece (about one-third of the total infantry) to each division. Since there is no mechanism to abolish or withdraw land units in WitP, does it make sense to cap the TO&E for the 5th and 6th divisions at 2/3rds of the infantry of the other Marine divisions to avoid double-counting? Is there a better way to approach this?


Q9: In my personal (ridiculously-detailed) scenario I broke up the 6th Division and effectively eliminated the 4th Regiment. I added in the 22nd and 29th regiments, 6th Tank Bn, 6th Engineer Battalion and 6th Pioneer Battalion as individual units. This effectively accounts for the Raiders. In the 5th Division there is no single regiment that can be directly equated to the Paratroops so I merely reduced the starting SQUAD numbers by 1/3.




quote:

Miscellaneous Cleanup
I Amphibious Corps was renamed III Amphibious Corps in 1944. They are the same unit. In WitP they are treated as two separate headquarters. One should be removed.
The 708th and 780th US Army Amphibious Battalions are included as Marine units. They are listed as 8/45 reinforcements in the stock scenario, and 5/45 in CHS, but their actual arrival dates in the database are 431215 and 440701, respectively.



Absolutely correct on the I/III Amphib Corps. I'd remove the III Amphib (and be glad to have an empty HQ slot).

On the 708th/780th. The 8/45 reference is just the nearest comment to the slots in the Location database used for these units and has no real value. Their specified arrival dates (12/43 and 7/44) are correct. The marines did "employ" US Army Amphib Tractor battalions and that may be the reason for the Marine designation. They could be re-set to US Army if desired.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 4
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/21/2005 11:06:12 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Should these units be removed from the game?
Q6: 1st Marine Medium Tank Battalion – was this the training command at Camp Pendleton? The only Marine Tank Battalions I have identified are those inherent to each of the six divisions (1st tank battalion = 1st Division, etc.).


I could be wrong on this but near as I could tell, the 1st Australian div was just a training unit also. I must admit however, the sources I was able to locate (years ago now) didnt have much info on ANZAC units.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 5
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/21/2005 11:24:56 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4912
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
I disagree that the 5th and 6th Division should be reduced in strength. If you are worried about accuracy that much, reduce the experience to represent the lose of the units as cadre. The Marine Corps would not field understrength Divisions in my opinion.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 6
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/22/2005 1:25:13 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
quote:


Original: Don Bowen
Q7: 100% correct. This unit was in Scenario 15 and was never properly vetted in CHS. In fact, I don't think any of the later-arriving Defense Battalions were.


quote:

Q8: Leadership Dilemma: What to do about Barrett?
MG Turnage is the initial 3rd Marine Division commander in WitP. However, he deployed to Guadalcanal as the Assistant Division Commander. The division commander was MG C.D. Barrett. Before the division’s first campaign (Bougainville) Barrett was promoted to become the first commander of the I/III Amphibious Corps. But he died within a month of a cerebral hemorrhage, and Vandegrift replaced him. Should Barrett be included as the 3rd Division commander, the I/III Corps Commander, or excluded from the database because he died of an accident before he commanded either unit in combat?


I could go either way but we are running short of leader slots so leaving him out seems attractive.


Don,

Thanks for doing a leader check.

Re: the defense battalions, I have vetted the late-arriving ones. All of the others did serve in the Pacific.

Re: Barrett. There won't be a leader shortage when I'm done with my 'scrub'. I found 90 US Army senior leaders (Major General and above) in the database who never existed IRL. I'll be deleting more leaders than I am adding for both the Army and the Corps.

Given Barrett's unique history I'm still looking for advice whether to list him as the first commander of the 3rd Division; the first commander of I/III Corps; both, or neither.


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/22/2005 4:45:10 AM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4454
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline
quote:

The Marine Corps would not field understrength Divisions in my opinion.


They did in Korea.

_____________________________

As Americans, we go forward, in the service of our country, by the will of God. - Franklin D. Roosevelt

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 8
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/22/2005 5:36:23 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I disagree that the 5th and 6th Division should be reduced in strength. If you are worried about accuracy that much, reduce the experience to represent the lose of the units as cadre. The Marine Corps would not field understrength Divisions in my opinion.


In WWII, at least, the Corps was committed to fielding full-strength divisions. But they eliminated all the independent Ranger and Parachute battalions in order to find the manpower to fill out the 5th and 6th Divisions.

While TwoTribes recommendation is intriguing, in the interests of the Holy Grail of Historical Accuracy, I'd advise capping the 5th and 6th divisions at reduced strength -- not because they are understrength, but to reflect that the remainder of each division is already on the map as separate units, "detached" from the division.

. . . returning to the original topic, I'm still looking for help tracking down leaders for the following USMC units.

Unknown Leaders:
Q1: The Samoan Marine Reserve Battalion
Q2: 1st Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion
Q3: 2nd Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion
Q4: 3rd Marine Armored Amphibious Battalion – I found one reference to this unit as a provisional battalion in training at the time of the Iwo Jima campaign, but no leader.


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 9
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/22/2005 5:39:08 PM   
captskillet


Posts: 2488
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
Status: offline
quote:

They did in Korea.


Especially after 'Frozen Chosin'.

_____________________________

"Git thar fust with the most men" - Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest


(in reply to rogueusmc)
Post #: 10
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/22/2005 7:31:23 PM   
Kereguelen


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Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
But they eliminated all the independent Ranger and Parachute battalions in order to find the manpower to fill out the 5th and 6th Divisions.


This raises another question: Both "Vanilla 15" and CHS give the USMC a replacement rate of 54 USMC squads/month (opposed to US Army only 71/month; 139/month from 43/12). Seems to be quite alot (well, don't loose many Marines in my PBEM, but nevertheless...), especially when comparing US Army to USMC. Maybe one should reduce the number of USMC replacement squads to represent manpower shortages of the USMC? Just a thought...

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 11
RE: US Marine Corps Leadership - 11/23/2005 9:47:30 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
Kereg,

Good question. I don't know enough about replacement rates to hazard a guess. . .

I have found two more leaders:

Unknown Leaders:
Q1: The Samoan Marine Reserve Battalion
Q2: 1st Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion -- Major Thomas F. Riley
Q3: 2nd Marine Engineer Aviation Battalion -- Major Chester Clark
Q4: 3rd Marine Armored Amphibious Battalion –

Only two more commanders to find in order to have a complete set of USMC ground unit leaders!



_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 12
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