Matrix Games Forums

Come and see us during the Spieltagen in Essen!New Screenshots for Pike & ShotDeal of the Week Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTYCommand: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTY is now available!Frontline : The Longest Day Announced and in Beta!Command gets Wargame of the Year EditionDeal of the Week: Pandora SeriesPandora: Eclipse of Nashira is now availableDistant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 10:47:51 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
A survey of US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders:

I'm "scrubbing" the WitP US Army leader file for CHS. Here are some observations about the division commanders:

WitP does a good job of including US Army division commanders. There were only two division commanders with significant PTO combat experience that I could not find in the Scenario 15 database.

But the "at start" generals commanding each division are often wrong. WitP includes generals that had relinquished command a year before their division arrives in-game; or commanders from 1943 and 1944 leading a division in 1941.

For the sake of consistency, in the CHS I’m proposing that the designated division commanders be the historic commander when the division first arrives in-game, with a couple of exceptions for obvious “training” commanders who were replaced once the division was ready to deploy for combat.

I have bolded the name of my recommended commander for each division. If there is no change I wrote “Same” beneath the name of the WitP-assigned commander. The numbers in parenthesis after each commander, e.g. MG Swift, I.P. (16147) are from the leader database file. I've also offered a brief history of the division, to show who led it into combat.

As I don’t pretend to be an expert, and all of my sources are online, I’d appreciate anyone scanning the list for errors / omissions. My primary source is The Combat Chronicles of U.S. Army Divisions in World War II. (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/cc.htm)

Thanks!

1st Cavalry Division: arrives 5/43
MG Mudge, V.D. (15929/15930)
MG Swift, I.P. (16147)
Innis P. Swift led the division from the beginning of the war (4/41 - 8/44) and into combat in the Admiralty Islands in 2/44. Swift was promoted to succeed Eichelberger in command of I Corps. Verne Mudge commanded the 1st Cavalry from 8/44 to 2/45, including the invasion of Leyte. Mudge was followed by BG Hugh Hoffman (15723) (2/45-7/45) then MG William C. Chase (15375) who had earlier commanded the 38th Division.

3rd Division: arrives 9999
MG Truscott, L.K. (16172)
MG Anderson, J.W. (15231)
The 3rd Division is apparently one of the hard-coded reinforcements that immediately appear if the Japanese invade the US West Coast. It arrives in Seattle, incidentally. By the time Lucian Truscott commanded the division (4/43) it had already shipped out to Europe. A better command choice is MG Jonathon W. Anderson, who led the division from 4/42-4/43, a more vulnerable period. Another option is MG John P. Lucas (15847) who led the 3rd from 12/41 – 4/42.
Trivia: One would be hard-pressed to find a better initial trio of American division commanders than Anderson (later commanded X Corps and XVI Corps); Lucas (III Corps, VI Corps, Fourth Army); and Truscott (VI Corps, Fifth Army).

6th Division: arrives 7/43
MG Ridley, C.S. (16042)
MG Sibert, F.C. (16098)
Clarence Ridley trained the division from 1/41 – 8/42. MG Durward Wilson (16239) also trained the division before deployment (8/42-10/42), after first training the 24th Division. But when the 6th becomes available in WitP, Franklin Sibert is the commander, and he led it from 10/42-8/44 including its first combat in New Guinea until he was promoted to command X Corps. MG Edwin D. Patrick succeeded Sibert. Patrick (8/44 – 3/45), who commanded the 6th during the Luzon invasion, and the 11th Airborne’s J.F. Swing are the only US army division commanders with extensive combat experience who are not in the WitP database. MG Charles Hurdis (15747) commanded after Patrick, from 3/45 to the war’s end.

7th Division: available at start
MG Corlett, C.H. (15410)
Brown, A.E. (15327)
IRL, the 7th Division did not deploy overseas until April, 1943. In WitP, though, the division is available 12/41. MG C.H. White (not in database) led the 7th until 10/42, followed by MG A.E. Brown (15327) who took the division into combat, invading Attu in April, 1943. Brown was relieved during the Aleutians campaign by Admiral Kincaid, and temporarily replaced by MG Landrum (not in database) and BG Arnold (15238) before Corlett took over, leading the 7th in the Kwajalien invasion. Corlett commanded the division in combat from 9/43 – 2/44, when he was promoted to command the XIX Corps in Europe. When Corlett left to take over the XIX Corps, Arnold was promoted to MG, and commanded the 7th until the end of the war, including the amphibious invasions of Leyte and Okinawa.
Trivial note: MG Landrum himself was later relieved of command of the 90th Division, in France.

11th Airborne Division: available 5/44
None
MG Swing, J.F. (Not in database)
In WitP the regiments of the 11th Airborne (the 187th and 188th Glider, and the 511th Parachute) arrive separately, which means the division commander is left out of the Swing of things. In November, 1944 the 11th amphibiously invaded Leyte; it subsequently amphibiously invaded Luzon and drove on Manila. MG Joseph F. Swing commanded the division from its organization until the end of the war.

24th Division: available at start
MG Wilson, D.S. (16239)
MG Irving, F.A. (15752)
Durward Wilson trained the 24th Division until 8/42, then was transferred to “train up” the 6th Division for two months, and finally was given command of an infantry training center. The 24th built coastal defenses in northern Oahu until 9/43, when it transferred to Australia. MG Frederick Irving (8/42 – 11/44) led the 24th into combat in New Guinea and Leyte. If Irving is given command, his availability date should be moved up to 410612. Irving was succeeded by MG Roscoe Woodruff (16247) (11/44 – war’s end) who returned from commanding the VII Corps in Europe to supervise the amphibious invasions of Luzon, Mindoro, Mindanao and Corregidor. Woodruff had earlier trained the 77th Division.

25th Division: available at start
MG Mullins, C.L. (15932)
MG Collins, J.L. (15403)
Charles Mullins did not command the 25th until 1/44. MG Maxwell Murray (15936) trained the division until 4/42, then MG Joseph Lawton Collins (4/42 to 1/44) led the division into combat at Guadalcanal and New Georgia. “Lightning Joe” Collins was promoted to command the VII Corps, in Europe. Mullins led the division in the Leyte campaign.

27th Division: arrives 6/42
LTG Haskell, W.N. (15680)
MG Smith, R.C. (16107/16110)
Haskell never commanded the 27th, or any other division in the PTO. BG Ralph Pennell (not in database) led the division when it arrives in WitP. The division never fought as a unified command. MG Smith led the 27th from 11/42 – 5/44, when elements participated in the invasions of Makin and Eniwetok. Smith then swapped commands with MG George Griner (15637), who had been training the 98th Division. Griner led the 27th through the rest of the war, including Saipan and Okinawa.

31st Division: arrives 3/44
MG Persons, J.C. (15984)
Same
MG John C. Persons led the 31st from 11/40 through 9/44, including its first combat in New Guinea in 7/44. He was succeeded by MG Clarence Martin (15868) who led the division through the invasions of Morotai (9/44) and Mindanao (4/45).

32nd Division: available at start
MG Gill, W.H. (15611/ 15612)
MG Harding, E.F. (15668)
MG Gill did not command the 32nd until 2/43. MG Irving Fish (15546) trained the division until 3/42. When the division shipped out to Australia (5/42) then deployed for combat around Port Moresby in late 1942 it was led by Edwin Harding (4/42 – 1/43). Gill subsequently led the division through its heaviest fighting in New Guinea, Leyte and Luzon.

33rd Division: arrives 7/43
MG Lawton, S.T. (15826)
MG Clarkson, P.W. (15387)
Samuel Lawton led the 33rd division until 5/42, before it arrives in WitP. MG Frank Mahin (15859) also briefly trained the division. The 33rd went overseas for further training under MG John Millikin (15911) (8/42 – 9/43). Percy Clarkson commanded from 9/43 when it first saw combat aggressively patrolled near Sarmi through the end of war, including campaigns for Morotai and Luzon. Clarkson is incorrectly listed as the X corps commander in the WitP database.
Trivial note: Millikin had an interesting career. He was promoted to command III Corps in Europe, but was relieved in part for going too slow around Remagen, and in part to make a command available for James Van Fleet. Unusually for a relieved officer, Millikin was given a division command – the 13th Armored – which was slated to return to the PTO for the invasion of Japan when the war ended.

37th Division: arrives 6/42
MG Beightler, R.S. (15268/ 15269)
same
Robert Beightler commanded the 37th for the entire war.
The 37th deployed to Fiji in 6/42, and trained there and on Guadalcanal until 7/43 when it joined the Solomons campaign. In 1/45 it participated in the amphibious assault at Lingayen, and the subsequent Luzon campaign.

38th Division: arrives 1/44
MG Sultan, D.I. (16142)
MG Jones, H.L. (15763)
Daniel Sultan trained the division until 4/42, before it arrives in WitP. Sultan went to Europe to command the VIII Corps. Henry L.L. Jones led the 38th from 4/42 – 2/45, when the division moved to New Guinea for training (7/44), fought in Leyte (12/44) then landed in Luzon (1/45). He was succeeded by MG William Chase (15375), who later commanded the 1st Cavalry Division, then MG Frederick Irving, who had previously commanded the 24th Division. The 38th fought in Luzon, and invaded nearby islands, until the war’s end.

40th Division: available at start
MG Brush, R. (15333)
Same
The division deployed on 8/42. Rapp Brush took the 40th to war, commanding the division from 4/42 to 7/45. The division was deployed to defend Hawaii on 9/42, then to Guadalcanal for training 1/44. It participated in the New Britain campaign, 4/44, but saw little fighting. The 40th assaulted Luzon 12/44, then Panay and Negros 3/45. MG Ernest Dawley (15445) previously led the division until 4/42. After Brush, BG Donalf Myers (not in database) commanded the division during occupation duty on Panay.

41st Division: available at start
MG Fuller, H.H. (15583)
Same
Horace Fuller led the division from 11/41 – 6/44. The 40th deployed to Australia 4/42 for training. It joined the fight for Port Moresby 1/43, and fought throughout the New Guinea campaign. Under MG Jens Doe (15470) the division landed in Palawan and Mindanao (2/45).

43rd Division: available 9/42
MG Wing, L.F. (16240)
MG Hester, J.H. (15702/15703)
MG Leonard Wing led the division from 8/43 until the end of the war. But MG John Hester (8/41-7/43) took the division into combat. Under Hester, the 43rd deployed to New Zealand and Espirtu Santo for training 10/42. It joined the Solomons campaign 6/43. Under Wing, the division fought in New Guinea (7/44) and invaded Luzon (2/45).

77th Division: available 3/44
MG Bruce, A.D. (15331)
Same
Andrew Bruce (5/43 – end) led the 77th from the time it was deployed. On 3/44 the division was sent to Hawaii, from where it participated in the 7/44 invasion of Guam, followed by fighting in Leyte (11/44) and the invasion of Okinawa and surrounding islands (3/45). The earlier commanders were MG Robert Eichelberger (15502), (3/42-6/42) who was promoted to command I Corps, and Roscoe Woodruff (16247) (6/42-5/43) who went to Europe to command the VII Corps and later returned to command the 24th Division in combat.
Trivia Note: Famed war correspondent Ernie Pyle was killed while accompanying the 77th on the Ie Shima invasion in the Okinawa campaign.

81st Division: available 7/44
MG Mueller, P.J. (15931)
Same
Paul Mueller (8/42 – end) commanded the 81st throughout its active life. The 81st deployed to Hawaii on 6/44, and invaded the Palaus 9/44. On 5/45 it was sent to Leyte for mop-up duty.

93rd Division: available 1/44
MG Miller, F.W. (15909)
MG Lehman, R.G. (15830)
Fred Miller led the 93rd before it was available for deployment (10/42-5/43). Another training commander was Charles P. Hall (15660) (5/42 – 10/42) who was promoted to command XI Corps. Raymond Lehman (5/43 – 8/44) took the division into combat. The 93rd deployed to Guadalcanal for training 1/44, then joined the fighting at Bougainville, 3/44. Under Lehman and his successor, MG Harry H. Johnson (15761), the division fought in New Guinea, the Northern Solomons, and the Bismarck Archipelago until the end of the war.

96th Division: available 7/44
MG Bradley, J.L. (15304)
Same
James Bradley commanded the 96th Division during its entire life in WWII. The division deployed to Hawaii on 7/44, assaulted Leyte on 10/44, then invaded Okinawa on 4/45.

98th Division: available 4/44
MG Smith, R.C. (16107/16110)
MG Griner, G.W. (15637)
Ralph C. Smith commanded the 27th Division until 5/44, and then took over the 98th. The 98th never saw combat. Right after the division deployed to Hawaii (4/44) Smith swapped commands with MG George Griner (11/43 – 6/44). During training, MG Paul Ransom (16027) (9/42 – 11/43) commanded the division.

Americal Division: available 3/42
MG Patch, A.M. (15970)
Same
The Americal was activated in New Caledonia on 3/42 and entered combat on Guadalcanal 10/42.. Alexander Patch was its first commander (3/42 – 12/42) and led it in combat until he was promoted to command the XIV Corps, then eventually inheriting command of the Seventh Army in France from George Patton.. Patch was succeeded by MG Edmund Sebree (16084), MG John R. Hodge (15719/15720) – who took the division into action on Bougainville (12/43) and who later commanded the XXIV Corps, MG Robert McClure (15883) and MG William Arnold (15239), under whom the division cleared out several islands in the Southern Philippines, including Leyte, Samar and Cebu, beginning 1/45.

The Philippine Division: available at start
None
MG Wainwright, J. M. (16203)
Like the 11th Airborne, the Philippine Division is divided into its component pieces at start, leaving MG Wainwright without a job, in-game. The P.D. retreated to Bataan and was finally overwhelmed on 4/42.


< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 11/12/2005 10:53:52 AM >


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Post #: 1
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 10:52:31 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

You can search the old messages or go to Spooky's most excellent WitP site to get my _HUGE_ Excel file with all WitP leaders (30+ MB but smaller to transfer because it is ZIPed)...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 2
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 11:03:17 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

You can search the old messages or go to Spooky's most excellent WitP site to get my _HUGE_ Excel file with all WitP leaders (30+ MB but smaller to transfer because it is ZIPed)...


Leo "Apollo11"



Now he tells me! I should have figured someone would have created that utility by now.



_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 3
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 11:22:51 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Now he tells me! I should have figured someone would have created that utility by now.



Always search old posts first...

BTW, it took me days to do the Excel because I, for the first time, cross-reffecernced the leaders with units/ships/groups...


Spooky's WWW:

http://mathubert.free.fr/


My leader files:

http://mathubert.free.fr/witp_files/Leo_WitP_Scen015_Leaders-Japanese_v11.zip

http://mathubert.free.fr/witp_files/Leo_WitP_Scen015_Leaders-Allies_v11.zip


The original thread:

"Leo's WitP Scen#015 Leaders XLS (Allied & Japanese)..."

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=914861&mpage=1


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 4
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 11:48:25 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4865
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
I dont believe that the 3rd arrives to defend the US, as I recall 9999 means never, I asked about this before and was told , in the case of the 3rd Division, it was original in game but to many Beta testers paid for it to participate in the Pacific, when historicly it shipped out to Europe.

There is at least one British Division with the same date of arrival. Never ask about it, but if I recall right it is the source of the chindits units?

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 5
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 11:53:29 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
9999 means "never". It seems to be mostly used for stuff that designers didn't want to use, but left in because they MIGHT want it at some later date. I've done it myself for my mod.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 6
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 5:37:51 PM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4453
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline
Those may be the extra troops you get when the West Coast is invaded...

_____________________________

As Americans, we go forward, in the service of our country, by the will of God. - Franklin D. Roosevelt

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 6:11:06 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4865
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
No. 9999 means they are ignored for game purposes, I ask this a long time ago. The 3rd was initially in because it spent over a year in Washington State, 1941 to 43? Before shipping to Europe. Early Play testers generally paid the PP and added it to the Pacific theater, so it was editted out with the 9999 date arrival. One British Division also has this date, I think, but cant remember, it was the Division that made the Chindits or some other raid force, so the thinking was it was already represented in game.

My specific question in the first few months the game was out, was "Is the 3rd Division with a 9999 arrival date part of the reinforcements the US gets if main land is invaded?" The response was NO and the above explaination.

(in reply to rogueusmc)
Post #: 8
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/12/2005 11:39:49 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

No. 9999 means they are ignored for game purposes, I ask this a long time ago. My specific question in the first few months the game was out, was "Is the 3rd Division with a 9999 arrival date part of the reinforcements the US gets if main land is invaded?" The response was NO and the above explaination.


Thanks. This is very helpful to know.



_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 9
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 12:43:14 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5180
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

No. 9999 means they are ignored for game purposes, I ask this a long time ago. The 3rd was initially in because it spent over a year in Washington State, 1941 to 43? Before shipping to Europe. Early Play testers generally paid the PP and added it to the Pacific theater, so it was editted out with the 9999 date arrival. One British Division also has this date, I think, but cant remember, it was the Division that made the Chindits or some other raid force, so the thinking was it was already represented in game.

My specific question in the first few months the game was out, was "Is the 3rd Division with a 9999 arrival date part of the reinforcements the US gets if main land is invaded?" The response was NO and the above explaination.


The British Division is either 70 Division(2872 arr 3/42), its original name or 3 Indian Division (Its security cover name)(2976 arr 2/43)


_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 10
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 3:11:03 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4865
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
70th Division sounds right.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 11
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 3:46:35 AM   
Mogami


Posts: 12608
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
From 3/18/04

Scenario 15
27th Infantry Division arrives 14 days LA. Lt Gen W.N. Haskell commanding. Lt Gen Haskell was replaced by Brigadier General Ralph McT. Pennell in November 1941. (he commanded Div up to Oct 1942)

Haskell should be a Maj Gen in Dec 1941. He should be removed from data base as he retired in 1942. (He was a NY NG officer and returned to NY for a period was made Lt Gen and retired)

Because this unit did not move to Hawaii before May 1942 suggest having it on map in lieu of 3rd ID assigned to West Coast.


Americal Division arrives 60 days SF. Commanded by Maj Gen R.B. McClure. This officer assumed command of division in April of 1944.
Division should have Maj Gen Alexander M. Patch commanding. (he led unit till Jan 1943)

32nd Infantry Divison arrives 115 days SF Commanded by Maj Gen WH Gill. In March 1942 division was commanded by Maj Gen Edwin F. Harding.
(Maj Gen Gill assumed command in Feb 1943)
Suggest placing this unit on map assigned to West Coast (It was in Louisana.)

Also I found out what happened to Lt Gen Haskell. It seems at wars start all National Guard officers over a certain age were forced out and replaced by regular Army officers. (The 32nd Div was commanded on Dec 7th 1941by NG officer who was also forced out. Seems the regular army had a surplus of Col and Brig Gens with no command so they were given all the NG divisions.)


43rd Infantry Divison arrives 281 days SF commanded by Maj Gen LF Wing. (did not take command of divison until Aug 1943) unit arrives around Aug 1942. Should be commanded by Maj Gen John Hutchinson Hester. Suggest locating the unit at Ft Ord Calf assigned to West Coast.



Hi, I think we killed our scenario data fixer.

The problem as I see it is units that were on West Coast but never sent to PTO are present while units that existed in USA but not on West Coast are not. (before the date they shipped to West Coast)
My solution for modders is to compile a complete list of USA Army units and if Japan lands on West Coast have them arrive 2 or 3 per turn till they are all there.
The US Army had a lot of existing formations not on West Coast on Dec 7 1941. No unit that never served in PTO should ever be on map even if it was in Seattle on Dec 7 1941. Instead replace it with an existing formation that did eventually move to PTO.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 12
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 5:42:04 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4865
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
Yup until Battle of the Bulge the US maintained a good number of divisins in CONUS. 44 was the year with the least and they all left in December or January due to Bulge.

There were also ( until 44) always a few divisions in varies states of training in the US as well. I agree units not available for Pacific should not be on map, BUT if Japan Invades the US Divisions that WERE still in States should be available, even if they didnt serve in Pacific.

Not sure if that can be coded. It would require a changing OOB depending on when the US was invaded. Until 44 at least 12 Divisions should be available and in 44 , 8 Divisions should be available IF the US is invaded. 45 no extra Divisions would be available.

There is NO way the US wouldnt shift all available reserves still Stateside to West Coast if the Japanese landed.

I am of the opinion that if Hawaia falls or is invaded the US would have changed at least some of the available reserves in US to Pacific theatre.

(in reply to Mogami)
Post #: 13
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 6:44:53 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
quote:

The problem as I see it is units that were on West Coast but never sent to PTO are present while units that existed in USA but not on West Coast are not. (before the date they shipped to West Coast)
My solution for modders is to compile a complete list of USA Army units and if Japan lands on West Coast have them arrive 2 or 3 per turn till they are all there.
The US Army had a lot of existing formations not on West Coast on Dec 7 1941. No unit that never served in PTO should ever be on map even if it was in Seattle on Dec 7 1941. Instead replace it with an existing formation that did eventually move to PTO.


Hi Mog,

Actually, I think the question of US divisions on the West Coast is one of the (few) challenges that the game engine handles elegantly.

AFAIK the 3rd Division is the only US division in the database that did not deploy to the Pacific. And, as Twotribes pointed out, the "9999" coding means that it never actually arrives in-game.

Nearly all of the US PTO reinforcements arrive in game during the month when they historically shipped overseas. These divisions had been training for a year or two in the US before deploying. The game engine reflects their presence by having all US reinforcements advance 6 months if the Japanese invade. A 12 month advance would probably be better. Mog/Twotribes are right: if the Japanese did storm the California beaches, other divisions in training across the country would have shouldered arms and headed west. But the mix of available divisions changed from month-to-month. I can't imagine a way to model it with this game engine, and there are many bigger issues to address.

Mog -- thanks for solving the Haskell mystery. Now can you or anyone tell me why GEN John Lesesnes de Witt is not even in the database, let alone commanding the Western Defense Command / Fourth Army / Ninth Corps Area (West Coast) as he did historically from 1941 through 9/43? And who is the imposter, GEN Bachurek, who pretends to command the West Coast in WitP? (or, in the words of General Buchalter in Hogan's Heros: "Klink!, who is theeze man?")


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Mogami)
Post #: 14
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 8:06:57 AM   
Mogami


Posts: 12608
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline
Hi, Since so many of the units that arrive in game in fact exist off map I suggest simply letting PP drive when they actually transfer to PTO. A full strength div costs around 70 days worth of PP. (assuming the Allied player spends them on nothing but changing West Coast units to Pacific commands. ) In this manner we actually let events in Pacific drive unit movement. Have units that moved to Pacific in first 90 days already assigned to a Pacific HQ. (Now if the Allied player wishes to send a division instead of a horde of seabees it's up to him) With all these units deployed on map at start the USA would be much harder to invade. (Just park the bulk of them in USA hex) With all that supply and objective at 100 percent they would grow and train just like they were still in Louisiana, South Carolina, New York, New Jersey etc etc. The Allied player could decide when they were ready to move to PTO. Very few major combat formations (divisions) were formed after Dec 7 1941 The US Army moblized in 1940. (USMC units were formed during war)
Patton got the nick name "Blood and guts" from a talk he gave his officers for newly formed Armored division in 1940. "Soon you will be wading in enemy blood and guts"

< Message edited by Mogami -- 11/13/2005 8:09:50 AM >


_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 15
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 9:33:05 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4865
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
Not true, a large number of units were created in 42 and less in 43, by 44 no new units were formed. The original plan was for 200 divisions. This got cut as it became apparant that the Soviets were winning and because of the needs of the Army Air Corps and not wanting to impact the armaments and production capacity of the US. ( it was felt, as the war progressed, that with the Soviets winning, less than 200 and then less than 100 ground army Divisions were ok.) But even in 43 the call was for I believe over 150 Divisions, they just moved back their call up to 44 or later and then by 44 cancelled that plan.

By late 43 the main mix of Army units had been formed. By the end of 42 the Army consisted of 52 Infantry Divsions, 2 Cavalry Divisions, 14 Armored Divisions, 2 Airborne Divisions and 4 Motorized Divisions. By the end of 43 the numbers were 67 Infantry Divisions, 2 cavalry Divisions, 16 Armored Divisions, 5 Airborne Divisions.

Through 43 the Army maintained a strategic reserve of 18 Divisions in the Continental USA, this shrunk in 44 and was gone with the Bulge Crisis in December 44.

Of interest is the fact that the US decided that motorized Divisions were to costly in money and manpower and actually reverted to all leg Infantry by 44.

So in reality the Army had a LOT of manpower available in support, since they didnt get rid of the trucks or the men driving them.

In 42 and 43 a reserve of 12 Divisions should be available if the Japanese invade the States. in 44 that should drop to 6 Divisions and in 45 none.

If the engine cant handle a changeing OOB, then make 8 divisions available from say march 1942 to end and give them some fictious designation or one of the Divisions from the late war period. A reasonable compromise.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 16
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 1:24:02 PM   
tabpub


Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline
In "Beer made me do it" AAR, I listed the units that I got when Mogami crossed the line; I would have loved to have the 3rd doing the "Truscott Trot" on him with all the other boys.

_____________________________

Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze"
..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 17
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/13/2005 8:37:48 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline
quote:

As I don’t pretend to be an expert, and all of my sources are online, I’d appreciate anyone scanning the list for errors / omissions. My primary source is The Combat Chronicles of U.S. Army Divisions in World War II. (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/cc.htm)


Another good source is

Madej, W. V., "US Army and Marines Corps Order of Battle - Pacific Theater of Operations 1941-1945", this has commanders for all major and most minor formations for the entire war including dates of all command changes ( even just when a guy goes on leave for a week ! ) ... I don't have time right now to cross check everything ( too busy working on Japanese OB ! ) ... but if you're having any issues nailing down a particular situation - lemme know and I'll look 'em up for you.



_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 18
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/14/2005 9:24:48 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub

In "Beer made me do it" AAR, I listed the units that I got when Mogami crossed the line; I would have loved to have the 3rd doing the "Truscott Trot" on him with all the other boys.


tadpub,

Thanks for the reminder of that delightful (to read) AAR.

Based on your experience it looks like the USA immediately gains an extra seven division equivalents in accelerated reinforcements if the Japanese invade in 1941 or 1942. That is in the ballpark of what TwoTribes was suggesting as reasonable (8 divisions or so).


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to tabpub)
Post #: 19
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/14/2005 11:25:30 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4865
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: online
Except those are divisions already slated to go to Pac and are simply excellerated. The Army maintained an 18 Division reserve through 1943 , not excelerated training, an ADDITIONAL 18 Divisions, that eventually in 44 went to Europe.

An additional 8 to 12 Divisions should exsist that ONLY appear if the US is invaded. All assigned to west Coast or a new command that might be made just for this. A restricted HQs.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 20
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/14/2005 7:25:28 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Except those are divisions already slated to go to Pac and are simply excellerated. The Army maintained an 18 Division reserve through 1943 , not excelerated training, an ADDITIONAL 18 Divisions, that eventually in 44 went to Europe.

An additional 8 to 12 Divisions should exsist that ONLY appear if the US is invaded. All assigned to west Coast or a new command that might be made just for this. A restricted HQs.


TwoTribes,

Unfortunately, I don't think its possible to establish an anti-invasion reserve along the lines you propose using the current game engine. Once any new division or HQ is in the game, the Allied player can use PP to transfer it to other theaters, even if it is restricted.

Even if there was a way to keep the divisions off-map until an invasion occurred, since there is no US withdrawal requirement all the "new" divisions would stay in the game after the invasion was repulsed.

The way the game is coded, any effort to make more divisions available to repulse invasions would invite gamey exploits by the Allied player to use the divisions even if Japan never invaded.

IMHO, it shouldn't be a difficult feat for the Allied player to garrison the West Coast well enough to repulse an invasion with his forces plus 7 division equivalents of instantaneously arriving reinforcements. So while the WitP approach is not as good as it should be, this is probably not the biggest problem in the game begging to be fixed.


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 21
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/15/2005 1:35:26 AM   
jcjordan

 

Posts: 1758
Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline
Blackhorse

I'm currently working on the leaders for CHS. It has taken quite some time as I only get to work part time on it & when work time permits so going has been slow as I buy a book here & there & try to find online sources as well. I've got a good bit done for all countries as well as services. I thought some countries like the US would be easy to find info on leaders but other than the major assets, it has been the hardest next to maybe some of the IJ air leaders. I do have a good book for the US Army OOB & commanders though but have been focused on other countries. If you want to combine, I'd appreciate any help & we can combine efforts. PM me & we can talk offline if interested

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 22
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/15/2005 4:51:44 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4874
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Blackhorse

I'm currently working on the leaders for CHS. It has taken quite some time as I only get to work part time on it & when work time permits so going has been slow as I buy a book here & there & try to find online sources as well. I've got a good bit done for all countries as well as services. I thought some countries like the US would be easy to find info on leaders but other than the major assets, it has been the hardest next to maybe some of the IJ air leaders. I do have a good book for the US Army OOB & commanders though but have been focused on other countries. If you want to combine, I'd appreciate any help & we can combine efforts. PM me & we can talk offline if interested


jcjordan - if Blackhorse hasn't contacted you yet - he has already sent his data on US leaders to me, and I have started adding it to CHS (there is a LOT to do). If you are able to combine your efforts that would be great. If he hasn't contacted you, let me know - I can forward his data to you (I presume he won't mind me doing that since the data will be publically available via the CHS). I also think there may be others out there working on Allied leaders...

Andrew

(in reply to jcjordan)
Post #: 23
RE: Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders - 11/15/2005 7:35:53 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Blackhorse

I'm currently working on the leaders for CHS. It has taken quite some time as I only get to work part time on it & when work time permits so going has been slow as I buy a book here & there & try to find online sources as well. I've got a good bit done for all countries as well as services. I thought some countries like the US would be easy to find info on leaders but other than the major assets, it has been the hardest next to maybe some of the IJ air leaders. I do have a good book for the US Army OOB & commanders though but have been focused on other countries. If you want to combine, I'd appreciate any help & we can combine efforts. PM me & we can talk offline if interested


JC,

As Andrew said, I've taken a crack at the US (specifically, US Army) leader database for CHS. The entire CHS team and I (and generations yet to come) would welcome your assistance scrubbing the other databases . . . and, as you noted the databases need a lot of work.

The first step is to prune the list of leaders. Nearly half of the US Army's senior leadership in WitP is completely fictious -- a product of a random name-generating program. I found 65 two, three, and four-star generals who never existed in real life -- including the starting commanders of the West Coast, and five of the seven Air Force headquarters.

Leo has the list of WitP leaders in a sortable excel format. They can be downloaded from Spooky's site at:

http://mathubert.free.fr/witp_files/Leo_WitP_Scen015_Leaders-Japanese_v11.zip

http://mathubert.free.fr/witp_files/Leo_WitP_Scen015_Leaders-Allies_v11.zip

My approach was to focus on higher-level commanders, so I sorted to identify all MGs and above and went to the library to check off the names against the Biographical Dictionary of US WW II General & Flag Rank Officers.

The quality of the work in the WitP databases varies. Nearly every Army division commander who served in the Pacific was included, but many US Army Air Force generals who commanded the numbered Air Forces were left out. The ratings provided for the generals are, with a few prominent exceptions, random. Nearly all the Australian Brigadiers have identical ratings, and the Aussie MGs mostly share their own set of numbers, too. I noticed that the five American commanders who were relieved of their Corps or Division commands in combat are ranked, as a group, substantially higher than the overall average for all US senior commanders.

If you really are interested in tackling a project this broad, and with so much to do, PM me and we will coordinate.


_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to jcjordan)
Post #: 24
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Reviewing US Army PTO Divisions & Commanders Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.141