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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/18/2018 5:19:17 PM   
peskpesk


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Here is a graphical example of the AIO and how the line of reasoning could be, given the suggested AO and LR.






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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/18/2018 6:01:29 PM   
gw15


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Maybe the AI should "think" about this:
My opinion, but the best way for Japan to beat China in MWIF, because of the expanded playing area, is to spread out and overlap the Chinese line forcing them back to their major cities. The Chinese do not have enough units and cannot attack the Japs, even their divisions if Jap bombers are in range. If the Chinese try and spread out to meet the Jap line then the Japs pick off their units 1 by 1.
With this strategy the Japs can take out the Chinese almost every time before the US can enter the war. With good weather it is even worse and faster for the Chinese to lose.
this assumes options:
extra cities
Warlords
Chinese attack weakness.

comments?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/18/2018 7:17:55 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Maybe the AI should "think" about this:
My opinion, but the best way for Japan to beat China in MWIF, because of the expanded playing area, is to spread out and overlap the Chinese line forcing them back to their major cities. The Chinese do not have enough units and cannot attack the Japs, even their divisions if Jap bombers are in range. If the Chinese try and spread out to meet the Jap line then the Japs pick off their units 1 by 1.
With this strategy the Japs can take out the Chinese almost every time before the US can enter the war. With good weather it is even worse and faster for the Chinese to lose.
this assumes options:
extra cities
Warlords
Chinese attack weakness.

comments?



I don't totally agree with you on this one. Sure, the Chinese will get pushed back, but it's not a certainty at all that the Japanese can crush them before the US enters the game. If you look at our netplay game running, after 1940 I thought the Chinese would be toast. But now it's 1942, the US is in the game and the Chinese have survived. The front is stalled at the moment, and it probably will stay stalled until somewhere in 1944...
Problem with the Japanese is that they need to prepare for the capture of the perimeter and the oil fields somewhere end of 1941, early 1942. That gives the Chinese some air to breath in late 1941.

A couple of bad weather die rolls makes a Japanese conquest of China unlikely to happen...

But I believe it will be very difficult to build a good AI on defense for the Chinese. The choice of where to put a reinforcement is so very important for the Nationalists together with making the right decision to stay and fight or to run away from the Japanese...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 10/18/2018 7:20:14 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/18/2018 11:28:40 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Maybe the AI should "think" about this:
My opinion, but the best way for Japan to beat China in MWIF, because of the expanded playing area, is to spread out and overlap the Chinese line forcing them back to their major cities. The Chinese do not have enough units and cannot attack the Japs, even their divisions if Jap bombers are in range. If the Chinese try and spread out to meet the Jap line then the Japs pick off their units 1 by 1.
With this strategy the Japs can take out the Chinese almost every time before the US can enter the war. With good weather it is even worse and faster for the Chinese to lose.
this assumes options:
extra cities
Warlords
Chinese attack weakness.

comments?


Why don't the Chinese just sit in the cities then? By the time the JP screen them all, they have no units at the sharp end.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/19/2018 1:56:23 AM   
gw15


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Ah, good comments.
There is that point from Peter about the Japs have to get back to the coast to take the islands, etc.
Another good point by Paul on holding the cities.

Peter, in our game you didn't advance the japs in a broad line and didn't try to outflank but your reason was as you stated. BTW - you did a beautiful turn with the Japs taking all of the historical places in 2 turns against the CW and US. But, the Chinese are growing.

Paul, yes, that might work but my other opponent will just gang up on one city or two at a time and pound them with air and then attack with +10 or +14. That's what happened to me in our first game. Japs were like PacMan game.
Keep in mind the Chinese cannot attack any Japs due to air cover and using the optional rules are stated.

I've learned so much about the MWIF Chinese front in playing 3 netplay games. Not at all like the board game. Wide open spaces.

Trying to bring in the Russians against the Japs can be a disaster for the Russians as MWIF does not have any peace arrangement but maybe a house rule would work.

Does anyone else that is playing netplay have any comments or observations?


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/20/2018 12:30:20 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Maybe the AI should "think" about this:
My opinion, but the best way for Japan to beat China in MWIF, because of the expanded playing area, is to spread out and overlap the Chinese line forcing them back to their major cities. The Chinese do not have enough units and cannot attack the Japs, even their divisions if Jap bombers are in range. If the Chinese try and spread out to meet the Jap line then the Japs pick off their units 1 by 1.
With this strategy the Japs can take out the Chinese almost every time before the US can enter the war. With good weather it is even worse and faster for the Chinese to lose.
this assumes options:
extra cities
Warlords
Chinese attack weakness.

comments?


I do not think that the AI as Allies should be allowed to play with the Chinese Attack Weakness, and without the Warlords or without Extra Cities.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 10/20/2018 1:20:55 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Here is a graphical example of the AIO and how the line of reasoning could be, given the suggested AO and LR.



warspite1

Well I've no idea what the hell that all means, but it sure is pretty!


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/12/2018 7:27:36 PM   
peskpesk


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The suggested AO and LR.


AO Szechwan: Chengtu, Ankang, & Chungking Approach LRs.
AO China Southwest: Yunnan & Kweichow LRs.
AO China Southern Coast: Kwangtun & Fukien LRs.
AO China South Central: Hunan and Kiangsi LRs.
AO China East Central: Hupeh, Anhwei, & Kiangsu LRs.





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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 11/12/2018 7:28:44 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/12/2018 7:34:22 PM   
peskpesk


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Here is an example on how the Japan AIO could evaluate the position on the map ("see" key goals)
and make the direction of the attack.




It simulates very roughly the human estimates that are being made.
Ex To attack Sian, control the railroad between Chengchow to Tungkwan to enable rail supply.
I can not have enemy cities near my main supply line and therefore Nanyang should be conquered.


LR HONAN
* Chengchow
* Tungkwan
* Nanyang

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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 11/12/2018 7:47:33 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/16/2018 2:58:47 AM   
RickInVA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Why Route 6 is useless.

World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7) Impulse 2 the USSR DoW’s Persia.


I don't think you can do that. As I recall the rules, the only DoW allowed in impulse 2 of Sept/Oct of 1939 is CW and France on Germany.

So Japan always has the first crack at DoW on Persia in impulse 3, if they want it.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/24/2018 8:09:30 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Why Route 6 is useless.

World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7) Impulse 2 the USSR DoW’s Persia.


I don't think you can do that. As I recall the rules, the only DoW allowed in impulse 2 of Sept/Oct of 1939 is CW and France on Germany.

So Japan always has the first crack at DoW on Persia in impulse 3, if they want it.

Yes.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/24/2018 11:08:14 PM   
RickInVA

 

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I set up a game to try this. What surprised me was that I was not given the option to align Persia to the SU. I was asked to align to CW, then France with the note that if I didn't align to France the country would surrender.

Any thoughts on why I was not allowed to align Persia to SU?

Thanks!

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 12:36:23 AM   
paulderynck


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You can only align a minor to an active major. "Active" = at war with a major on the other side.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 2:43:22 AM   
brian brian

 

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While the theory of WiF is interesting, the operational reality of war is different. It would be a randomly risky move for Japan to try this on the first turn. They would at best be looking at about a 3:2 invasion with their 1-4 Marine division, or a +4 on the 2d10 which would survive on a roll of 14, 17, 19, or 20. (30% chance on 1d10). (Notional of 1 for each invading unit from 2 box, with each Persian port hex a mountain hex; Kongo class BB shore bombardment and CV ground support)

If they added their 2-4 infantry division, it would be a 6:4 invasion (also a +4) which could survive on 13+ . Same 30% on 1d10.

If they added their 1-4 infantry division as well, it would be 7.5:6 and a +3.5 attack, which would survive on 12+ . (I think actually +3.3 as only 2 Kongo class BC have 3 SB factors). Though with 3 units, this would have a 50% chance on 1d10 of one division surviving, which would be disorganized in all 1d10 scenarios. One unit on 2d10 would stay organized on 17, 19, or 20; 2 units could keep one face-up on a 16 as well, and 3 units would land one face-up on 15+.

A 3 unit invasion would also require leaving probably Hainan vacant temporarily, as all 3 units would have to sail from a single port to reach the 2 box in the Persian Gulf with one naval move while the Battle Cruisers would have to use the other naval move to reach the 1 box. It can be a good move to tempt Chinese units in to sitting on a coastal hex, where the IJN can double any land combat, but that also requires another naval move; something in short supply in this operation.


If the invasion fails at 50% or 70% or greater chance, the CW now has all 3 oil in Persia, a friendly no-Partisan country that couldn't be threatened by the Euro-Axis before the CW could easily reinforce it. A 2nd try at invasion would require Japan deploying a supply line to Italian East Africa first, and then another go at dicey landings by their full MAR corps once again against strong notional units, far from the key rail connected port at the head of the Gulf.


if a single Japanese division lands but is disorganized, reinforcements could reach it on the next Japanese impulse or even safely enough just in a Return to Base phase as the CW/Persians probably wouldn't risk their only unit in the country, the Persian CAV. Eventually Japan would still have to move Convoy Points to Italian East Africa, from where they can sail to the Persian Gulf, something that might take until turn 2, depending on how Japan prioritizes their TRS use here. There would be an outside chance miscellaneous CW forces could threaten that move on the ground in East Africa. (& Italy would have to join the war for Japan to base there, but this move would work best in conjunction with an early Italian DOW on the CW).


If a single Japanese division gets really lucky and lands in a Persian port and remains organized, it might have a chance to take the rest of the Persian ports --- iffff the CW were dumb enough to set up the Persian CAV in Teheran rather than at the head of the Gulf. And Japan would also have to race the CW, who could bring in their only likely 'Peacekeeper' unit, their 1-4 Infantry division, via a pair of SCS transport moves most likely, if it started in the UK.


A further campaign from this point would require a Japanese HQ and several ground units and would require probably at least one ground combat in a mountain hex, off the coast and possibly out of range of Japanese CV planes. The Persians could play Chinese with one unit in such a hex, and pick the Blitz table with it. Even if the CW sent nothing but the 1-4 infantry division, it would be a slow, unit intensive struggle for Japan to reach Teheran while holding it's supply line and the oil hexes as the Persians would add their MIL stacked with the British infantry, in mountains, and their CAV would be free to maneuver with various supply line possibilities. But Japan could take Teheran with enough steady commitment of units, unless the CW could free up an actual corps for Persia, not totally simple but not totally difficult, either.

Japan would have the choice to land quite a bit more safely in far SE Persia in a clear hex, but then would face an even longer, slow campaign to reach a Persian port and eventually the key rail port to enable a drive on Teheran.


All of this would require numerous Combined &/or Naval impulses and use of lift assets normally used to reinforce China, where the Japanese could still advance, but quite a bit more ponderously, especially on MWiF's larger map. Mao and Chiang would both likely remain fairly safe throughout 1940.

Persia would be a rich prize for a very bold, and then lucky, Japanese commander. An unlucky Emperor would be off to a rocky start with his European Allies.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 11/25/2018 12:37:27 PM >

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 2:58:11 AM   
RickInVA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You can only align a minor to an active major. "Active" = at war with a major on the other side.


I looked for that in the rules and didn't find it. Can you direct me to the reference?

Thanks!

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 2:58:18 AM   
brian brian

 

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All of that said, it can be an exciting Op for Japan to go for some oil in the Middle East, but at a much more sensible point in the 2nd half of 1940 - after their 2-4 Marine division can be built and then deployed to East Africa, and after China has been pushed back a fair bit. It is then not hard for Japan to land in Saudi Arabia for one oil, and can then contemplate some sort of move on Persia, which would remain a difficult campaign, but not an impossible one, perhaps with a Euro-Axis Med campaign, or just a temporary 6-9 turns of oil gluttony without ever driving on Teheran at all.

It is true that Japan would struggle to haul home oil prizes in the Middle East in a variety of scenarios. But the RaW7 oil rules give Japan an easy out; before war with the CW the oil hexes in the Middle East could re-organize all their units while just perhaps one oil point is transported to save in Canton each turn. This can be especially handy if Japan is intensively bombing China, complete with Air impulses and plane re-organizations, to keep Chinese production low. Then USA & NEI oil can be spent on new units for a while.

Such a move is a multi-turn operation for Japan to build, position, and then deploy all land, lift, and CV assets to maximize their landing chances. That would be an interesting exercise for the AI to attempt.


Overall though, the easiest way to enrich the Japanese is to just hold a few infantry reserves with a fast TRS stationed in Canton, at all times, and wait for the Russians to pull the trigger in Persia for them. Then Japan aligns Persia, DOWs the Russians and takes Vladivostok with their MARs for a few more riches, and Adolf starts revving the Panzer engines. Thanks Uncle Joe!

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 3:01:22 AM   
brian brian

 

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It is in rule 19.2, Entering the War:

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 3:21:53 AM   
RickInVA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Eventually Japan would still have to move Convoy Points to Italian East Africa, from where they can sail to the Persian Gulf, something that might take until turn 2, depending on how Japan prioritizes their TRS use here.


Given all the other points you make I would assume that this would be an "all in" operation by Japan. So, having planned for it Japan has a spare convoy at sea, once the port is secured the convoy aborts to that port, a TRS moves to the Persian Gulf (4 mover from Canton) and reorgs the convoy point, which then can move into the Persian Gulf the next impulse. Or, depending on the rule selection, you could just wait for end of turn reorg and move the convoy out the next turn.

Is there something I am missing that makes IEA necessary?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 11/25/2018 3:54:21 AM   
brian brian

 

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No, an Italian base not totally necessary. To re-organize a CP in an Persian port, Japan would have to take a Naval impulse or use a de-barked HQ; and another Combined Impulse afterwards as well.

But to have much chance against a Persian beach on a future turn, not on a surprise impulse, perhaps the Imperial Guard sailing to the Persian Gulf from Italian Somaliland would help some - but there are no easy scenarios to get ashore then, and probably not at all in a useful part of the Persian shore, which would have 2 units with ZoCs making really strong notionals.

Attacking Persia on the first turn, with a good chance of total failure and aiding the Allies, all while achieving little in China as well ... I would be glad to see an opponent go for this anytime. But I doubt I would ever see such a move in a real game. A Japanese CP set up in the Bay of Bengal would probably make the Allies say wait, what? but not many of them would do anything about it, such as moving the CW infantry division from the UK to Aden.






But using an Italian colony is a way to do such an operation all in one long summer 1940 turn, with a pair of Naval impulses, though also after a Japanese CP mysteriously appears in the Bay of Bengal beforehand.



< Message edited by brian brian -- 11/25/2018 4:00:23 AM >

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/6/2018 9:09:26 PM   
peskpesk


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Overview of Japanese Garrisons areas in the pacific




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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/6/2018 9:12:40 PM   
peskpesk


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The Inner Ring
A) Manila, Canton, Legaspi
B) Singapore, Batavia, Menado, Makassar
C) Bonin Islands,




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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 12/7/2018 9:24:00 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/6/2018 9:16:52 PM   
peskpesk


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The Outer Ring

C) Saipan
D) Truk, Rabaul, Port Moreseby, Sorong





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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/6/2018 9:19:30 PM   
peskpesk


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The Outpost

E) Kwajalein,Eniwetok





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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/7/2018 12:18:11 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

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I personally value a CV more than Lift in general at least as long as Japan has good shots at naval fights.
Without control of the seas your lift just sits in the docks or risks suicidal missions unless Jap has a serious LBA advantage over the SZ where the Lift has to go. And Lift rarely is endangered initially in the surprise impulse and immediate subsequent turns due to Jap CVPs superiority vs the USA ones (at least if Japan comes prepared).

And your CVs can also stop / stall the enemy advance through SZs.
Last but not least, CVs take way longer to replace.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/9/2018 8:04:44 PM   
peskpesk


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Japan has an impossible task of garrisons the whole of the Pacific when they end up in war with US and CW. They do not have enough Japanese units available since China and the USSR demand most of the army and the spearhead offensive units are reseved as an force for continued expasion and/or neutrlizing allied threats - basically the units that are left over are those that could make up the garrison. Where should they be placed? By breaking down the task into areas, the most important area, followed by the less important area and so on, we have the direction.
And by determining the threat to the area, we will know where to put Garrision in the area.
- Prio 1: Key garrisons. Mandatory hexes to garrisons, anti invasion thrat: Capitals, Victory objectives, critical ports.
- Prio 2: Anti Partisan Garrisons: Defends key resourse \ oil sources from partisan and invasion threats.
- Prio 3: Parameter Garrisons: Defends strategic ports and hexes in the sea area from allied invasions threats. Once the parameter is breached the value of defending thease location are reduced.

The areas in the pacific, from Japans garnison point of view, are basically broken down into
- The Inner ring: South China Sea and the China sea. Through this area most RP & Oil are located and tranported. It needs to be in Japanease hands or the empire will die.
- The Outer ring: The Bismark Sea, located just outside the important Inner ring and blocking the powerfull US navy from reaching it.
- The Outpost: Located next to all of Marianas, Solomons, Marshall Sea zone the vulnerable forward base is the steping stone to Japanease westward operations and US eastward operations.

Very simplified: Each area could have a priority, min and max number of units. Then the AIO could give x number of units to the garrision area and distribute them one at the time, starting with the most prioritesed area and continuing to the next in prio order. Once area has enough units it skiped. This could be used for senario setups and for help checking where to place units in LR, AOs.

Out of scope for the defense are:
- The Kill zone: The China sea, Japapanese Coast, from where allied planes and sea lift are able to threathen main land japan and the main resource tranport sea zone.
- The Frontier: The Coral sea and the Solomons. Historicaly the Japanease expansion died here. The gateway to Truk and Rabaul for the US and to New Zealand and Polynesia for Japan.
- The Crown: Bay of Bengal, east entrence to the Jewal of the Crown for the British empire and the bigest threat from the start, for the Japanese Inner ring. Trincomalle and Calcutta, Singapore dominate the sea area.
- The Pearl: Pearl habor needs no introduction. If this crtical majort port is lost the US are in trouble. Marshall, Hawaii Island and Christmas Island sea zones.

The reaction force. At least two MAR and div. It needs to be place in central location that is good for both offensive threats and that can knock out failed US\CW attacks.
A Major port is a good location.


< Message edited by peskpesk -- 12/9/2018 8:16:51 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/9/2018 8:06:38 PM   
peskpesk


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A The Inner ring




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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/9/2018 8:07:26 PM   
peskpesk


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B The Inner ring





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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/9/2018 8:10:15 PM   
peskpesk


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C The Outer Ring




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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/9/2018 8:10:56 PM   
peskpesk


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D The Outer Ring




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RE: AI for MWiF - Japan - 12/9/2018 8:12:20 PM   
peskpesk


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E The Outpost




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