AI for MWiF - USSR

[c92nichj]

And, as I asked earlier, what should the USSR do?

USSR and the Balkans.
Just as the rest of USSR early war strategy everything he does should be aimed at preparing for a Barbarossa. A few key points to make.
Keep as big bufferzone on the germans as possible.
Minimise German production.
Minimise USSR losses.
Maximise USSR production.

There are two choices to make for USSR. a) Demand Bessarbia or not, b) Attack Bulgaria or not.

a.1) Demand Bessarbia
First never demand Bessarbia if you're not certain you can win a war over Rumania, count on that Germans will rail in and act as peace keepers. so keeping a cav in west poland to cut the railroad might be a good startegy.
- This will decrease your lending to Germany which will increase your production and lower his.
- It will give you Chisinau and an increased bufferzone when the attack will come.
- It will make it possible for Italy to align Yugoslavia prior to the attack of Russia, (but do you really care Italy is the wallies problem)

a.2) Don't demand Bessarbia
Only pro is really that that the germans have to attack Yugoslavia prior to attacking you to be able to align Rumania and start his assualt from Ukraine.

b1) Attack Bulgaria.
An '39 attack on Bulgaria can usually both cut off the Turkish and Bulgarian resource, even if you do not actually counquer Bulgaria, it will take a little plannign and effort but might be well worth it, a con is that when you declare war Italy might align Bulgaria and hence creating a pretty safe second home.

[Froonp]

(Cut from the AIO for Germany thread)

How about viewing this from the USSR side? Should the USSR demand Bessarabia?

I would say that the USSR should always demand Bessarabia. Of course, this demand should be backed up by some serious threat on the Oil in Rumania, both with bombers and with troops.
From the USSR point of view, seizing more land to put between Germany & him is the main point. There is no US Entry cost, only advantages.

The only thing that could make the Russian not do it, is seeing that the German is not ready to Declare War to Yugoslavia & Hungary. Not aligning Bessarabia obliges Germany to declare war on Yugoslavia to align Rumania. Russia can wait to begin to oblige Germany to redeploy toward Yugoslavia. But as soon as Germany declare war to Yugoslavia, Germany is then able to immediately align Rumania to its side, and Russia cannot align Bessarabia anymore. That's why I said first that USSR should always demand Bessarabia as soon as possible backed with a strong threat toward Rumania.

[Froonp]

Just as the rest of USSR early war strategy everything he does should be aimed at preparing for a Barbarossa. A few key points to make.

While I'm at it, I'll give a few of my thoughts about the subject of Early War Strategies for Russia. Early war strategy is 39-41, or 39-42 if Germany is on a Gibraltar Strategy or else.

Persia :
Russia can easily take advantage of Persia (especially in CWiF where Teheran is in a Clear hex -- I would advise to put it back in a Mountain hex), and grab the 3 Oil resources it has.

Advantages :
Those 3 Oil wil come handy when Russia has to use oil to reorg oil dependant units, and the one Oil that is railable will be useful to help to produce at maximum level while Russia is giving 5 RP & 2 Oil to Germany. Also, this oil can be useful when Russia is rampaged by Germany and a lot of her resources are conquered.
Russia can use the Army of Siberia led by Zhukov for this, and only leave Vladivostock & the area to the defense of a couple of the weakest units and the reserves.

Drawback :
Using the Army of Siberia led by Zhukov to do this, might lead to an aggressive Japan play around Vlad. Anyway, if Japan had planned on taking Vlad and the surrounding area, Russian could not do much to prevent it.


Finland :
It is generaly a bad idea to attack Finland before Barbarossa. There is close to no advantages and nearly only drawbacks.

Advantages :
Reducing the RP leased to Germany by 1.
Grabing 1 RP in northern Finland.
Hoping for a full scale war to ignite, and to conquer Whole Finland. But Finnish are tought.

Drawbacks :
The Finnsih army can make this war a 14-18 trench warfare war like, and make USSR loose precious units with Barbarossa approaching this is bad.
Finland is then immediately alignable by Germany. This is bad too because Germany might trasport Finnish units out of Finland into Poland to make them immediately available for the main thrust of Army Group North.


Japan :
Advantages :
The advantage of making an early war to Japan is that it should end with a non agression pact, and having a pact with Japan for 1941 is good.
The best moment to attack Japan might be 1940, after Persia & Bessarabia has been dealt with, hoping to force to a pact with Japan and be peacefull in Siberia in 41-42. I tell this without having tried it. It might be impossible at worse, unwise at best.

Drawback :
There are plenty of other things to do as the Russian in the early game, and there're not much units to do it. A war with Japan might be the third thing after Bessarabia & Persia, but Russia must also consider placing its army for Barbarossa, and this mus be began soon to put all the units in perfect places, using combined moves.

I think that the safest / wisest behavior to have with Japan is to try to avoid a 39-40 war with Japan to try to avoid loosing 1 factory & 3-4 RP.

Cheers

[c92nichj]

Russia can easily take advantage of Persia (especially in CWiF where Teheran is in a Clear hex -- I would advise to put it back in a Mountain hex), and grab the 3 Oil resources it has.

This is risky business. An agressive Japaneese player will ship a couple of white print units into the oil hexes, those will be very difficult to get rid of and essentially gives the japanese three extra oil.
The winner at WIFCon this year used this strategy with japan this year I believe.
If you are to kill Persia do it quickly.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Russia can easily take advantage of Persia (especially in CWiF where Teheran is in a Clear hex -- I would advise to put it back in a Mountain hex), and grab the 3 Oil resources it has.

This is risky business. An agressive Japaneese player will ship a couple of white print units into the oil hexes, those will be very difficult to get rid of and essentially gives the japanese three extra oil.
The winner at WIFCon this year used this strategy with japan this year I believe.
If you are to kill Persia do it quickly.

That's true.
What needs to be remembered here is for the Japanese AIO to try to take advantage of that. For the AIO do decide whether he can spare 2 WP units for that, and if he does, to try to built a CP line to Persia (not necessarily a Tanker line) just to use the Persian OIL to reorg oil dependent units.
The Russian AIO must know he must do it quickly. That's right.
If Teheran stays in a Clear hex, with the sole Persian unit put on the map being at 3 strength, the Russian only have to use 2 Siberian INF plus the CAV DIV for the trick (and 2-3 bombers to ground strike the Persia unit and to provide some easy Ground Support). Zhukov is needed for supply, or another HQ that could rail quick into this zone, which would allow Zhukov to stay in Siberia until the Russian is sure that the Japs are after China and not him.

[c92nichj]

I would say that the USSR should always demand Bessarabia. Of course, this demand should be backed up by some serious threat on the Oil in Rumania, both with bombers and with troops.
From the USSR point of view, seizing more land to put between Germany & him is the main point. There is no US Entry cost, only advantages.

Depending on if you think it is worse to have both Prince Paul and Antonuesco against you in Russia. As previously said Denying germany to align both Yugoslavia and Rumania before Barbarossa is seen as an advantage by some, generally I would agree with Patrice that demanding Bessarbia is more of an advantage, and then preferably during '39.

I would not bother with Finland though, the extra protection you get for Leningrad is not worth the potential risk. I was unlucky&uncareful in a game last year though and lost leningrad on the suprise impulse in snow to the Finns, the axis launching their Barbarossa in the winter cost them the game though.

[Froonp]

Here is a try at what a Russian 1941 defense against Barbarossa could look like.
Speed bumps in forward cities, strong defense behind the Dniepr, key cities in northern Russia being held.
An Armored reserve is held in the center of the Russian Army to be able to counter attack Germans if possible (3 ARM / MECH full stacks).

I can provide you with a larger picture or with the production plan to achieve this Russian Army (Excel table). It's only a rough outline and given that the Russian production is dependant on the action of Germany & Russia it's not precise. It was something I wanted to have as an aim for an eventual future game as Russia.

Please add & critic, I'm not a Russian Specialist.

[c92nichj]

Its hard to make out any details.
Is it for a zoc or no-zoc game?

Minsk look's very vulnerably for the suprise pulse
Is the unit in the Northeast for the murmansk area?
WHere do you keep the airforce?
Why do you keep a unit in Rostov?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Its hard to make out any details.

I know. This forum only accepts pictures of less than 200KB. The original s 2 MB, I can send it to you if you want.

Is it for a zoc or no-zoc game?

It was for a No Zoc on surprise 2d10 game.

Minsk look's very vulnerably for the suprise pulse

Yes, but I thought that Germany needed to destroy the Brest Livosk, Vilna & Kaunas garrisons before advancing further, even if they destroy Minsk.

Is the unit in the Northeast for the murmansk area?

They are the units arriving in Siberia (reserves). For Murmansk, I would only place 1 unit there at start. Not sure.

WHere do you keep the airforce?

It was not placed on this picture for clarity. Anyway, to build such a large armored force, the air force was mainly kept to the at start air force, only building a couple of FTR in '41.

Why do you keep a unit in Rostov?

Well, it's because as the German I could easily take Rostov one time because I advanced so fast that the Russian had to flip to enter Rostov Hastily (either by walking or railing) and it helped me attack it ot have them disrupted. Its some kind of unit I can either keep in rostov or advance as a reserve to fill a gap.
Sevastopol was not garrisoned at start, but my plans were to have a unit rail there asap.

Would have liked to have some sort of speed bumper in central ukraine & northern poland, but the open terrains are too much easy to take for the German.

The objective with this setup is to make the German loose time to arrive to Novgorod / Vitebsk / Smolensk, and try to prevent the German crossing the Dniepr.

I'm sure it is not perfect, its just ideas.
PS : Tried to post a larger image.
PPS : Units with a red square around them are reserved (flipped) units.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Russia can easily take advantage of Persia (especially in CWiF where Teheran is in a Clear hex -- I would advise to put it back in a Mountain hex), and grab the 3 Oil resources it has.

This is risky business. An agressive Japaneese player will ship a couple of white print units into the oil hexes, those will be very difficult to get rid of and essentially gives the japanese three extra oil.
The winner at WIFCon this year used this strategy with japan this year I believe.
If you are to kill Persia do it quickly.

That's true.
What needs to be remembered here is for the Japanese AIO to try to take advantage of that. For the AIO do decide whether he can spare 2 WP units for that, and if he does, to try to built a CP line to Persia (not necessarily a Tanker line) just to use the Persian OIL to reorg oil dependent units.
The Russian AIO must know he must do it quickly. That's right.

If Teheran stays in a Clear hex, with the sole Persian unit put on the map being at 3 strength, the Russian only have to use 2 Siberian INF plus the CAV DIV for the trick (and 2-3 bombers to ground strike the Persia unit and to provide some easy Ground Support).

And one convoy for supply.


Zhukov is needed for supply, or another HQ that could rail quick into this zone, which would allow Zhukov to stay in Siberia until the Russian is sure that the Japs are after China and not him.

[pak19652002]

Patrice:

Will you please post the original to the Online WiF files section?

Thanks,

Peter

[Shannon V. OKeets]

That is an awful lot of hexes to give up for free. As the German, I can mop up the speed bumps in two impulses and move next to the Russian front line on my third impulse. I will have positioned all my fighters and bombers within reach of the Russians as well.

So, starting on Germay'a third impulse ...

While the southern half of the Russian line looks strong, the German air units can render sections of it immobile and need only punch one hole in the line to create serious problems for the USSR. A paradrop on Sevastopol is feasible. The northern portion of the line is short, with the right flank in the air. Pinning the northern units in ZOCs and threatening to flank attack from the north while hitting the bottom of the southern line puts the armor reserve on the spot - do they go north or south?

This position is stronger than the forward position in Poland and avoids having surprise ground strikes against the best USSR units. But it gives up 4 to 7 hex rows for that gain plus two impulses. If the Germans attack in May/June, they have another 2 or 3 impulses to attack in the first turn plus two more good summer turns to: (1) take Leningrad, (2) break through the Kerch straits, (3) push through to Rostov, Kursk, and Moscow. As another way to look at this. The Germans can advance more than halfway to all of those 5 destinations in two impulses while taking minimal casualties.

On the other hand, I am eagerly seeking different strategies, so this goes on my list of options for the AIO when playing the USSR.

[Froonp]

The only way I see it better, is with more units garrisoning the forward cities, forcing the Germans to ground trike them to avoid loosing too much time killing them. This would avoid too much of the Luftwaffe being positionned for the real line.

On the other hand there is on this picture pretty much all the Russian units from the available force pool, so they need to be taken from somewhere. Maybe from behind the Dniepr, but then the mobile armored reserve would be forced to take position behind the dniepr.

I hope that the Russia Gurus will pop up soon to help us

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: pak19652002
Patrice:
Will you please post the original to the Online WiF files section?
Thanks,
Peter

I did.
It is not the real original, the real original is photoshop, with all the counters movable. This is the best JPG.

It seems that I did not succeed in posting it. I'll try later.

[Froonp]

Try also looking here http://www.helsinki.fi/~vsaarine/wif/strat/russia.html for some pieces of hint in playing Russia, especially defending it in 1941.
It is written by Vesa Saarinen.

[Froonp]

To add to you thoughts, here are some elements from the friends on the French WiF List (http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/World_ ... s_Francais) :

1. Do not forget to rail move factories. In the north, the lakes might freeze, so think about railing those of Leningrad too.
2. Ask for Allied Lend Lease, even if the situation is good.
3. On the south, defend on the Dniepr, put some feeble units in the Pripet Marshes Edges to hamper the German advance a bit. Dniepropretovsk is a good strongpoint especially with its forest on the north.
4. When the Dniepr is pierced, run to the factory line (Kursk, Stalino). Defend those cities to death. If those cities fall in JA, the end is near anyway.
5. Try to harm the Germans with the VVS (Russian Air Force), without getting overrun on the ground. Scrap without hesitation all fighters with an air to air strength of 5 or less.
6. In the north, defend with some strong unit stacks, always in the woods. Build a ZoC network, and withdraw when he advances. Do not compromise the Red Army for a flipped unit, let it die. The first serious line of defense in the north is at smolensk. Try to slow down the German in the Area of Vitebst first, and Smolensk next.
7. Zhukov hates sunshine, and the woods are generaly the natural element of the Russian HQs. If you play with AA units, Zhukov should have his own AA unit.
8. Do not waste the Offensive Chit, but do not hesitate to use it neither, especially if you play with Guard Banners.
9. Do not hesitate to take a Pass Action.
10. Have an armored reserve to counter attack and counter attack again and again, because the Russian gets Reinforcements and the German does not. The German can't have elite troops everywhere, so hit his weakest places.

[Froonp]

To add to the picture I posted earlier, and to try to have this defense better.

What do you think if the troops defending Pskov, Novgorod and Vitebsk were used along with those in Riga Kaunas, Vilna and Minsk to apply the strategy outlined in point 6 of my precedent post (#16).
[In the north, defend with some strong unit stacks, always in the woods. Build a ZoC network, and withdraw when he advances. Do not compromise the Red Army for a flipped unit, let it die. ]

Those forward units would hope to survive more or less the first ground strikes (they would be placed in the woods), and they would try to retreat each time the German advance, to try to make the German loose time, and to try to save units.

One point I may have forgotten to stress in my previous posts about Germany & Russia is that the objective of the German Army during the first blow to Russia is more to destroy Russia units than to gain territory. Knowing that, the Russian should try to save his army att he expense of territory if necessary.

Cheers.

[buckyzoom]

One thing the the Russian AI should have is a pact breaker calculator. I've seen two situations that come up in WIF games (other than Germany trying to break the pact). One is...

Packing the Border
One is that the Russian player packs the border. What this means is that the put enough troops on the border so that the Germans cannot break the pact until '42. This is mathematically possible and a computer should be really good at this.

The AI would need to take into account the quality of their chit picks. Perhaps if the standard deviation for their picks is consistently on the postive side for x turns a 'pack the border' strategy is adopted.

The other is...

Bluffing
I've seen/been the Russian player in late '41 and early '42 starts turning chits face down and move his forces forward (if not at war with Japan, then Russia declares war on Italy). This indicates that the USSR player believes he can break the pact. This can force the German player to declare war prematurely.

Other thoughts...

Spain or London
If Germany declares war on Spain or invades the UK this is an indication the USSR has until '42 before Germany attacks. This opens up options like,

...invade Persia
...invade Iraq
...invade Bulgaria
...demand Finnish borderlands

Japan
There has been some pretty pointed arguments about when and even if Russia should ever attack Japan. I won't comment, but declaring war on Japan allows some pretty interesting options for the Russian AI. Since they are active,

...they could help garrison other Allied territories or countries. These could include France (generally speaking the Italian border mountains) or the Suez if a route is open. Other options are possible.
...it would allow other countries to bring troops into Russia. It's not uncommon for the Commonwealth to garrison Murmank or even bring land troops in to attack Persia from the USSR.

Oops, gotta run. Please let me know if you'd like further details.

[mlees]

I have a noobie question.

In the CWiF version of the game, the Polish cities do not become secondary supply scources for the Soviet units in Poland. I had to base an HQ in Poland to put them in supply.

In the photos above, the only stuff in Poland are black print garrison units.. If I set this up in CWiF, they will be OOS. One ground strike and they wont be much of a speedbump.

Is the CWiF correct in representing this supply situation?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: mlees

I have a noobie question.

In the CWiF version of the game, the Polish cities do not become secondary supply scources for the Soviet units in Poland. I had to base an HQ in Poland to put them in supply.

In the photos above, the only stuff in Poland are black print garrison units.. If I set this up in CWiF, they will be OOS. One ground strike and they wont be much of a speedbump.

Is the CWiF correct in representing this supply situation?

At the present time, Eatern Poland & the Baltic States are Russian conquered if Russia uses the pact. So it is correct in CWiF.
There are discussions on the WiF rule comitee to change that and to make the Eastern Poland & the Baltic States part of the Russian Home Country, thus changing the supply status of the cities herein. This may lead to rule change in the near future, at least in the paper game, I don't think that the computer game will fiollow the WiF FE rule changes after publication. I even wonder if it will follow them before publication if there are (there is notably this one that is foreseen and one change about the bonus of divisions on the 2d10 table, who should all get back to half the same bonus awarded toa corps).
However, the speed bumps are black print because (1) white prints are not numerous enough, and because (2) if Germany want to disrupt Brest-Livosk (forest hex) it may be hard to achieve, and may disrupt (a little) the German early advance.
I would prefer if it was garrisoned by 2 units with a white print.