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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/1/2013 1:20:09 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Units in a coastal hex (e.g., Vladivostok) are very vulnerable to Japanese attack. It is easy for Japan to get as many shore bombardment points as it needs. So consider any number of attacking land unit factors to be doubled.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 481
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/1/2013 5:51:22 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Partisans cannot leave their home country.



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
Similarly, if the USSR controls 3 or more resources that were Japanese controlled at the start of the war, the Soviet player must agree to a peace if the Japanese player wants one.



The Chinese communists are controlled by the USSR and do not need to leave China.

They just have to take Japanese resources in China, which would then become controlled by the USSR.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Units in a coastal hex (e.g., Vladivostok) are very vulnerable to Japanese attack. It is easy for Japan to get as many shore bombardment points as it needs. So consider any number of attacking land unit factors to be doubled.



Best case for a Japanese invasion of Vladivostok 2nd pair of impulses September/October 1939

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15.).

11.16.6 2d10, Odds Modifier
When playing with Fractional odds (see 11.16.5), for odds of 1:1 and higher the odds modifiers are considered linear (e.g. 3.65:1 gives you 7.3 die roll modifiers, while 3.64:1 gives you 7.2).

11.16.5 Resolving attacks
Odds ratios
Option 41: (Fractional odds) Round to a whole number in favour of the defender, then work out how far to the next odds ratio you are. Round this in favour of the defender to the next 10%. Roll a die just before rolling the combat die (you could roll it with the combat die if you want), to see if you find the result on the lower odds or the higher odds. If you roll the percentage or less, you resolve it on the next higher odds, otherwise on the lower odds.

Example 1: 12:7 rounds to 3:2. But you have a spare 1.5 factors. This is 42.9% of the way to 2:1 (i.e. 1.5/3.5). So you get a 40% chance (i.e. a roll of 1-4) of resolving the combat at 2:1.
Example 2: 35:6 is 5.83:1 which rounds down to 5:1 but with an 80% chance of resolving the combat at 6:1.




1 for a city hex, 1 the hex is in the home country, -1 its a surprise impulse = 1

Zukov HQ-A (8-(5)-4), a Siberian INF 5-4, a 2 factor GUN, and 1 for the notational = 16 combat factors.

Weather for North Temperate Zone: 40% fair, 50% rain, and 10% storm.

Japan starts with 3x TRNS and 1x AMPH.

So a Japanese invasion would consist of a maximum of 1x INF 8-3, 1x 4-4 MAR, and 1x INF 1-3 division. 13 land combat factors.

13 Land combat factors + 13 shore bombardment factors + 13 tactical air factors

39 Japanese combat factors divided by 16 USSR combat factors = 2.4 to 1 (a +4 (60%) or a +6 (40%) on the Assault table on 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE).

I have a USSR CAV unit left over to block any land forces from Manchuria.



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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 482
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/1/2013 6:58:19 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Partisans cannot leave their home country.



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
Similarly, if the USSR controls 3 or more resources that were Japanese controlled at the start of the war, the Soviet player must agree to a peace if the Japanese player wants one.



The Chinese communists are controlled by the USSR and do not need to leave China.

They just have to take Japanese resources in China, which would then become controlled by the USSR.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Units in a coastal hex (e.g., Vladivostok) are very vulnerable to Japanese attack. It is easy for Japan to get as many shore bombardment points as it needs. So consider any number of attacking land unit factors to be doubled.



Best case for a Japanese invasion of Vladivostok 2nd pair of impulses September/October 1939

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15.).

11.16.6 2d10, Odds Modifier
When playing with Fractional odds (see 11.16.5), for odds of 1:1 and higher the odds modifiers are considered linear (e.g. 3.65:1 gives you 7.3 die roll modifiers, while 3.64:1 gives you 7.2).

11.16.5 Resolving attacks
Odds ratios
Option 41: (Fractional odds) Round to a whole number in favour of the defender, then work out how far to the next odds ratio you are. Round this in favour of the defender to the next 10%. Roll a die just before rolling the combat die (you could roll it with the combat die if you want), to see if you find the result on the lower odds or the higher odds. If you roll the percentage or less, you resolve it on the next higher odds, otherwise on the lower odds.

Example 1: 12:7 rounds to 3:2. But you have a spare 1.5 factors. This is 42.9% of the way to 2:1 (i.e. 1.5/3.5). So you get a 40% chance (i.e. a roll of 1-4) of resolving the combat at 2:1.
Example 2: 35:6 is 5.83:1 which rounds down to 5:1 but with an 80% chance of resolving the combat at 6:1.




1 for a city hex, 1 the hex is in the home country, -1 its a surprise impulse = 1

Zukov HQ-A (8-(5)-4), a Siberian INF 5-4, a 2 factor GUN, and 1 for the notational = 16 combat factors.

Weather for North Temperate Zone: 40% fair, 50% rain, and 10% storm.

Japan starts with 3x TRNS and 1x AMPH.

So a Japanese invasion would consist of a maximum of 1x INF 8-3, 1x 4-4 MAR, and 1x INF 1-3 division. 13 land combat factors.

13 Land combat factors + 13 shore bombardment factors + 13 tactical air factors

39 Japanese combat factors divided by 16 USSR combat factors = 2.4 to 1 (a +4 (60%) or a +6 (40%) on the Assault table on 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE).

I have a USSR CAV unit left over to block any land forces from Manchuria.



The USSR must control the Japanese resources, not the Communist Chinese.

Why do an invasion? Just march in (or fight your way in) from the west & southwest. An invasion would be like Germany invading Riga instead of simply marching overland to that city from Prussia.

Notional units are always disorganized. If there are 3 units in the hex, doing some ground strikes would be worthwhile, and of more benefit than adding in tactical factors for ground support.

Japan's air factors are very poor, so I am assuming that you are using carrier air units. Even then getting matching tactical factors might be problematic.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 483
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/2/2013 7:10:46 AM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
1) The USSR must control the Japanese resources, not the Communist Chinese.

2)Why do an invasion? Just march in (or fight your way in) from the west & southwest. An invasion would be like Germany invading Riga instead of simply marching overland to that city from Prussia.

3)Notional units are always disorganized. If there are 3 units in the hex, doing some ground strikes would be worthwhile, and of more benefit than adding in tactical factors for ground support.

4)Japan's air factors are very poor, so I am assuming that you are using carrier air units. Even then getting matching tactical factors might be problematic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
20. Chinese communists
The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.



1) So Chinese communist control doesn't count toward Option 50: (USSR-Japan compulsory peace).

I can live with that the Chinese can use the resources and factories.


2) So you plan on the land route you will give up the surprise impulse and have supply problems crossing the mountains.

Japan will have to march down the rail from Harbin.


3) Remember there is only a 40% chance of fair weather.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
8.2.3 Air effects
Halve the naval, tactical and strategic bombardment factors of aircraft (including carrier planes) in a sea area, or attacking a hex, in rain or
snow. If the aircraft is suffering anti-aircraft fire, apply this halving after the AA results are applied.

The only mission you may fly to a weather zone in storm or blizzard is a rebase mission
.
You may not choose naval air combat in a sea area where the weather is storm or blizzard. Ignore aircraft in such a sea area for all purposes.
They may neither search nor be included in naval combat. They must still abort from the sea area if all other units voluntarily abort however (see 11.5.11).

8.2 Weather effects
Rain
Supply range 2 European map hexes
Land units, terrain costs x 2
Land Attacks, -1 odds level
Aircraft air-to-sea, tactical and strategic factors halved
-1 shore bombardment if in sea-box section with ‘*’
+1 to search roll.

Snow
Supply range 3 European map hexes
No invasions allowed
Land Attacks, -2 odds level †
Aircraft air-to-sea, tactical and strategic factors halved
-1 shore bombardment if in sea-box section with ‘*’
+1 to search roll.


4) Yes, Japans air factors are poor I gave it the benefit of the doubt that Japan can get the air factors. I did say it was a best-case scenario.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/2/2013 7:12:08 AM >


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Post #: 484
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/2/2013 5:01:42 PM   
Centuur


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If Japan wants Vladivostok in the first turn, he is going to get it. Even with Zhukov and the best other two unit in there. Japan sets up two or three INF/MIL on the Manchurian/Korean border with the USSR, together with an HQ and moves adjacent to the city during the movement phase of the second axis impulse of the game. In the first axis impulse, the Japanese Fleet sailed with the three MAR (6-3, 4-4 and the MAR DIV) to optimise the huge number of SB factors and every TAC factor (CVP or LND) is deployed within range of the city. End of USSR dreams of being able to defend this city.

Personally, I wouldn't defend Vladivostock as the USSR with Zhukov, since the loss of this unit is an economic disaster. I would give the Japanese the city and try grabbing resources in Manchuria instead to put pressure on the Japanese.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 7/2/2013 5:03:41 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/2/2013 7:51:43 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Japan
Imperial Guard MAR 6-3 + SNLF MAR 4-4 + 2nd SNLF MAR 1-4 = 11 combat factors.

Tripled (land factors + shore bombardment factors + tactical air factors) to 33.


Centuur you did say the best two USSR units...

USSR
Zhukov HQ-A (8-(5)-4) + a Siberian INF 5-4 + 76mm FLAK (AAA) 11-1 + Notational = 25 combat factors.


The Odds are 1.32 to 1.

That's 1 to 1 or even on the Assault table on 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE.

With a 30% chance of it being a 3 to 2 attack or +1 on the Assault table on 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE.



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Post #: 486
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/2/2013 9:47:46 PM   
brian brian

 

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The Japan<>Russia dynamics are one of my favorite parts of this game.

Sir Ext, I don't think the FLAK units get those factors in ground combat. ? I can't remember how they work, my copy of that Annual with the rules for those counters is out on an adventure with another gaming group.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/2/2013 11:39:53 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
22.4.2 Artillery (AsA option 3)
If you are playing with this rule, there is a new gearing limit class— artillery. There are 3 types of artillery—anti-tank (AT), anti-aircraft (AA) and field artillery (ART).
They form three new force pools and, like other units, you should sub-divide each of these on the basis of cost.

Anti-aircraft units
If an AA unit uses anti-aircraft fire, turn it face-down at the end of the step. If firing against aircraft providing ground support, turn the AA unit face-down after Advancing after combat (see 11.16.5).

If an AA unit has a combat factor circled in red, double its combat factors if it is attacking an enemy ARM, HQ-A or MECH unit.

If an AA unit has a combat factor circled in red or pink, double its combat factors if it is being attacked by an enemy ARM, HQ-A or MECH unit. Each defending AA unit which has a combat factor circled in pink or red counts as an ARM corps for choice of land combat tables (see 11.16.5).


Do you have different information Squire Bria?




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/2/2013 11:43:51 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/3/2013 12:00:35 AM   
brian brian

 

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I'm pretty sure a FLAK/AAA unit is not handled the same as the regular AA units in land combat. Just not exactly sure how they work. I haven't even punched out my counters for them yet....and I also think they won't be in MWiF either.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/3/2013 12:22:10 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I'm pretty sure a FLAK/AAA unit is not handled the same as the regular AA units in land combat. Just not exactly sure how they work. I haven't even punched out my counters for them yet....and I also think they won't be in MWiF either.

The Flak units are not in MWIF - initial product release.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 4:00:09 AM   
jelake

 

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Flak is from the 2008 Annual under Commando in Flames. They have no land combat factors, cannot be counted as a loss in combat and are destroyed when an enemy land unit enters the hex. They can use their anti-aircract factors again its own and adjacent hexes against enemy air missions but are halved against all missions except strategic bombardment. They are also destroyed during strat bombing if a "*" is achieved; 1 per "*".

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 9:43:10 AM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

Flak is from the 2008 Annual under Commando in Flames. They have no land combat factors, cannot be counted as a loss in combat and are destroyed when an enemy land unit enters the hex. They can use their anti-aircract factors again its own and adjacent hexes against enemy air missions but are halved against all missions except strategic bombardment. They are also destroyed during strat bombing if a "*" is achieved; 1 per "*".


The excel file from Patrice says they are from FiF (Factories in Flames).



Japan
Imperial Guard MAR 6-3 + SNLF MAR 4-4 + 2nd SNLF MAR 1-4 = 11 combat factors.

Tripled (land factors + shore bombardment factors + tactical air factors) to 33.


USSR
Zhukov HQ-A (8-(5)-4) + a Siberian INF 5-4 + 122 mm 4-2 + Notational = 18 combat factors.


The Odds are 1.8 to 1.

That's 1 to 1 or even on the Assault table on 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE.

With a 80% chance of it being a 3 to 2 attack or +1 on the Assault table on 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE.



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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 4:08:21 PM   
Jagdtiger14


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If the USSR player were ever to put Zhukov into or near Vladivostok...I as the Japanese player would make it one of my national goals to see to it that counter is NOT destroyed AND never makes it out of the area (trapped) for the rest of the game...or as long as it would be worth it to the Germans...once Germany doesn't care about Zhukov (ie...USSR at the Urals)...I would then destroy Zhukov.
1. I know from personal experience that the Japs can take Vladivostok when ever they want regardless of how the USSR defends it(1939-1941...perhaps longer depending on situation).
2. I would cut rail lines leading out of Vladivostok in several places in and around it and far to the north.
3. Surround any USSR units in the Vladivostok area, ground striking any oil dependent units.

I as Japan would DOW USSR under two conditions: 1. USSR is wide open in the east with no or very few light units, at war with Germany, and no reaction to my build up or, 2. I can trap an extremely valuable unit(s).

If USSR DOW's my Japan I'm defending the river lines in mid/south Manchuria and taking Vladivostok (unless of course Zhukov is there in which case I trap him). This can be prepared for since you can see the warning signs.

C


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 4:41:29 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Using Centuur's example...

quote:

11.14 Invasions
At the end of the attack declaration step (see 11.16), you can state that your notional unit is to be ignored [you might do this to prevent breakthroughs by units attacking in conjunction with an invasion]. If you do (and there are no other friendly land units in the hex), there is no attack, and the attacker occupies the hex as if debarking onto a friendly hex (see 11.13).


quote:

8.2.3 Air effects
Halve the naval, tactical and strategic bombardment factors of aircraft (including carrier planes) in a sea area, or attacking a hex, in rain or snow. If the aircraft is suffering anti-aircraft fire, apply this halving after the AA results are applied.

The only mission you may fly to a weather zone in storm or blizzard is a rebase mission.

You may not choose naval air combat in a sea area where the weather is storm or blizzard. Ignore aircraft in such a sea area for all purposes. They may neither search nor be included in naval combat. They must still abort from the sea area if all other units voluntarily abort however (see 11.5.11).


quote:

OPTION 67: 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE

quote:

Modifications
Where any modifiers conflict with World in Flames and all of its modules these modifiers take precedence.

-2 per defending ARM, MECH in a (non-city) clear, or desert hex (only -1 if the defending unit is a division) clear weather only.
1 per defending AT, pink or red AA, if being attacked by ARM or MECH.
Each face-down defending unit +2 (only +1 if the defending unit is a division or a notional unit)
HQ support +/- half the reorganisation value of supporting HQ (no die roll required for HQ-Support)
-1 ~ Each (co-operating) major power attacking (after the first).
+1 ~ per Japanese, Australian, or US Marine attacking a jungle hex. provided the unit attacking is white print.
-4 ~ Jungle
+1 ~ for each paradropping unit after air to air combat and antiaircraft fire (if any).
~ +2 Non territorials attacking territorials.
~ -2 Territorials attacking non territorials


quote:

8.2 Weather Effects
-2 ~ Rain
-4 ~ Storm
-4 ~ Snow*
-6 ~ Blizzard*
+1 ~ for each winterized unit attacking in Snow or Blizzard.
*-2 ~ for each winterized unit defending in Snow or Blizzard.
Note: Winterised units are Ski, MTN, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and white print Russian units. When benefitting from winterised units, the first loss must be from one of these units (further losses don't have to be from them).


quote:

City Modifiers
-1 ~ City
-1 ~ for each printed factory stack being attacked
+1 ~ for HQ attacking a city
+1 ~ per ENG combat factor attacking a city
-1 ~ per ENG combat factor defending a city
Note: City modifiers can never total more than ‘0’


quote:

Notes
1. The same procedure for land combat is followed as in WiFFE 11.16 except that:
(a) 2 ten sided dice are rolled for each combat rather than 1,
(b) The final odds are converted to a die-roll modifier rather than cross-referencing an odds column on the Land CRT.

2. Priority when choosing Land CRT:
(a) Defender chooses table if the terrain effects chart says so
(b) If not, the attacker chooses if the attacker either;
• has more ARM (AsA & MiF option 2: DIVs counting as 1/2) than the defender (AsA option 3: including defending anti-tank), or
• has more MECH than the defender and the defender has no ARM or anti-tank.

3. All losses expressed as attacker/defender. Furthermore:
(a) “-” - No effect.
(b) Attacker takes an extra loss when attacking cities, mountain, forest, jungle, swamp, or all across river/crossing arrow, fort hexside, invasion or attacking a clear or desert hex containing a defending ARM, or MECH.
(c) Attacker takes an extra loss in weather other than fine. No effect in Snow or Blizzard if half or more of the attacking land units are winterised units. The first loss if there is one must be one of these units unless they have already suffered a loss. This is not cumulative with 3b above.
(d) When using the Blitz table no matter who called the blitz, the attacker’s first loss must be a MOT,

MECH, ARM or HQ-A if any of these attacked (even before the winterised unit lost, but after ENG loss).
(e) - Half the remaining attacking units are not turned face-down (round up).
(f) - Attacker is not turned face-down.
(g) R - Remaining defending units must retreat.
(h) S - Remove remaining defending units that could retreat. They arrive as reinforcements in the next game turn. Destroy units that cannot retreat; and
(i) B - S result plus breakthough.
(j) Attacker can convert an ‘S’ or ‘B’ to an ‘R’ result.

4. Halve attacking bonuses (except HQ support) when the combat factors of the attacking units are halved.



Modifications
City Modifiers
-1 for the city
-1 for the red printed factory stack being attacked
No HQ attacking the city
No ENG attacking the city
No ENG defending the city

Modification totals -2

If Japanese ground strikes flip all 3 units you have a +7. 7 - 2 = 5.

If the weather is fair that gives you a number between 7 and 25.
Since only a dice roll above 19 results in elimination of all defending units that gives you a 30% chance the invasion would succeed.

If the weather is rain that gives you a number between 5 and 20.
Since only a dice roll above 19 results in elimination of all defending units that gives you a 5% chance the invasion would succeed.



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(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 494
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 6:03:40 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: jelake

Flak is from the 2008 Annual under Commando in Flames. They have no land combat factors, cannot be counted as a loss in combat and are destroyed when an enemy land unit enters the hex. They can use their anti-aircract factors again its own and adjacent hexes against enemy air missions but are halved against all missions except strategic bombardment. They are also destroyed during strat bombing if a "*" is achieved; 1 per "*".


The excel file from Patrice says they are from FiF (Factories in Flames).

Commando in Flames counters are on the CS39 that is labelled Factories in flames. It is thus merged in FiF in my file.


(in reply to Extraneous)
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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 8:26:25 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If the USSR player were ever to put Zhukov into or near Vladivostok...I as the Japanese player would make it one of my national goals to see to it that counter is NOT destroyed AND never makes it out of the area (trapped) for the rest of the game...or as long as it would be worth it to the Germans...once Germany doesn't care about Zhukov (ie...USSR at the Urals)...I would then destroy Zhukov.
1. I know from personal experience that the Japs can take Vladivostok when ever they want regardless of how the USSR defends it(1939-1941...perhaps longer depending on situation).
2. I would cut rail lines leading out of Vladivostok in several places in and around it and far to the north.
3. Surround any USSR units in the Vladivostok area, ground striking any oil dependent units.

I as Japan would DOW USSR under two conditions: 1. USSR is wide open in the east with no or very few light units, at war with Germany, and no reaction to my build up or, 2. I can trap an extremely valuable unit(s).

If USSR DOW's my Japan I'm defending the river lines in mid/south Manchuria and taking Vladivostok (unless of course Zhukov is there in which case I trap him). This can be prepared for since you can see the warning signs.

C


That's the way to take the port. Cut the raillines and you've got a huge POW camp in the city, which the Japanese can take whenever they want it. Just be patient and ground strike again and again. A disorganised Zhukov is a dead one. Also: if the USSR defends with Zhukov in Vladivostok, he has to withdraw another HQ from Europe with additional units to try to grab Manchuria. And that's a difficult one, because he has to stuff the border with Germany to prevent an early Barbarossa.
In general however, I personally think it is better for Japan to concentrate on the Chinese, except when the USSR goes for Persia...

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(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 496
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/4/2013 10:25:35 PM   
Jagdtiger14


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I agree with you Centuur concerning Japan concentrating on China. As for the USSR going for Persia...the Japs can send "peace keepers" into the Persian oil, which might cause the USSR to DOW Japan.

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(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 497
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/5/2013 7:54:28 AM   
paulderynck


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It is Japan that must issue the DOW because if the turn ends with Russians in Tehran and Persia conquered, then the Japanese must leave because they are not at war with the conqueror - per the Conquest rules. They get to use the oil they are sitting on for one turn only.

As Japan I always keep a couple Divs and SCS in Canton/Hainan, to be ready for this specific purpose.

The most secure way to take out Persia is a Russian attack from the north with the CW landing on the coast in the south. Expensive US Entry-wise, but secure.

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(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 498
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/5/2013 8:46:24 AM   
michaelbaldur


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or Russia could take out Iraq first .. that really simple

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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 499
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/5/2013 1:45:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That's the way to take the port. Cut the raillines and you've got a huge POW camp in the city, which the Japanese can take whenever they want it. Just be patient and ground strike again and again. A disorganised Zhukov is a dead one. Also: if the USSR defends with Zhukov in Vladivostok, he has to withdraw another HQ from Europe with additional units to try to grab Manchuria. And that's a difficult one, because he has to stuff the border with Germany to prevent an early Barbarossa.
In general however, I personally think it is better for Japan to concentrate on the Chinese, except when the USSR goes for Persia...


The idea that ground strikes can keep Zhukov disorganized misses one important factor and that's the weather.

quote:

8.2 Weather effects
8.2.3 Air effects

Halve the naval, tactical and strategic bombardment factors of aircraft (including carrier planes) in a sea area, or attacking a hex, in rain or snow. If the aircraft is suffering anti-aircraft fire, apply this halving after the AA results are applied.

The only mission you may fly to a weather zone in storm or blizzard is a rebase mission.

You may not choose naval air combat in a sea area where the weather is storm or blizzard. Ignore aircraft in such a sea area for all purposes. They may neither search nor be included in naval combat. They must still abort from the sea area if all other units voluntarily abort however
(see 11.5.11).




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(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 500
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/5/2013 7:18:02 PM   
Centuur


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True. And the hex is woods too. However: Zhukov in Vladisvostok means that that city is going to be surrounded or cut off from oil resources by the Japanese, making the city one huge PoW camp. And Zhukov out of harms way, means that automatically the Euroaxis should try for a Barbarossa as soon as possible (at least give the impression that they are building for one, so the USSR can't put units to use to capture Manchuria. This than makes the USSR vulnerable in Siberia).

And that's exactly how things should be. The USSR can't affort to set up Zhukov in Vladivostok, since that is an invitation for Japan to attack the USSR. At the same time the opposite is also true: if the USSR set up Zhukov on the Manchurian-USSR border, that means that the Japanese will have to divert forces to that area from China, therefore inviting them to DoW the USSR and take Vladivostok.

Therefore it is better as the USSR not to put Zhukov close to the Japanese territories, therefore telegraphing that he hasn't any idea's with going to war with the Japanese. A USSR - Japanese war isn't in the interest of both parties. If there is peace in that area, the USSR can prepare for Barbarossa and the Japanese can focus in China. That's the best solution for both countries IMHO.

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Post #: 501
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/5/2013 8:31:05 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


or Russia could take out Iraq first .. that really simple

The USSR has no common border with Iraq.

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Post #: 502
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/5/2013 10:30:45 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is Japan that must issue the DOW because if the turn ends with Russians in Tehran and Persia conquered, then the Japanese must leave because they are not at war with the conqueror - per the Conquest rules. They get to use the oil they are sitting on for one turn only.

As Japan I always keep a couple Divs and SCS in Canton/Hainan, to be ready for this specific purpose.

The most secure way to take out Persia is a Russian attack from the north with the CW landing on the coast in the south. Expensive US Entry-wise, but secure.


Correct, production step before peace step.

And it will take Japan 4 Tankers per oil to get them from Persia to Japan.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
True. And the hex is woods too. However: Zhukov in Vladisvostok means that that city is going to be surrounded or cut off from oil resources by the Japanese, making the city one huge PoW camp. And Zhukov out of harms way, means that automatically the Euroaxis should try for a Barbarossa as soon as possible (at least give the impression that they are building for one, so the USSR can't put units to use to capture Manchuria. This than makes the USSR vulnerable in Siberia).

And that's exactly how things should be. The USSR can't effort to set up Zhukov in Vladivostok, since that is an invitation for Japan to attack the USSR. At the same time the opposite is also true: if the USSR set up Zhukov on the Manchurian-USSR border, that means that the Japanese will have to divert forces to that area from China, therefore inviting them to DoW the USSR and take Vladivostok.

Therefore it is better as the USSR not to put Zhukov close to the Japanese territories, therefore telegraphing that he hasn't any idea's with going to war with the Japanese. A USSR - Japanese war isn't in the interest of both parties. If there is peace in that area, the USSR can prepare for Barbarossa and the Japanese can focus in China. That's the best solution for both countries IMHO.


Have the maps changed?

The map I posted shows Vladisvostok is in a clear hex.

If you put Zhukov away from the border isn't that more of an invitation for Japan to Dow the USSR?



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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 503
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/6/2013 2:33:17 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It is Japan that must issue the DOW because if the turn ends with Russians in Tehran and Persia conquered, then the Japanese must leave because they are not at war with the conqueror - per the Conquest rules. They get to use the oil they are sitting on for one turn only.

As Japan I always keep a couple Divs and SCS in Canton/Hainan, to be ready for this specific purpose.

The most secure way to take out Persia is a Russian attack from the north with the CW landing on the coast in the south. Expensive US Entry-wise, but secure.


Correct, production step before peace step.

And it will take Japan 4 Tankers per oil to get them from Persia to Japan.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
True. And the hex is woods too. However: Zhukov in Vladisvostok means that that city is going to be surrounded or cut off from oil resources by the Japanese, making the city one huge PoW camp. And Zhukov out of harms way, means that automatically the Euroaxis should try for a Barbarossa as soon as possible (at least give the impression that they are building for one, so the USSR can't put units to use to capture Manchuria. This than makes the USSR vulnerable in Siberia).

And that's exactly how things should be. The USSR can't effort to set up Zhukov in Vladivostok, since that is an invitation for Japan to attack the USSR. At the same time the opposite is also true: if the USSR set up Zhukov on the Manchurian-USSR border, that means that the Japanese will have to divert forces to that area from China, therefore inviting them to DoW the USSR and take Vladivostok.

Therefore it is better as the USSR not to put Zhukov close to the Japanese territories, therefore telegraphing that he hasn't any idea's with going to war with the Japanese. A USSR - Japanese war isn't in the interest of both parties. If there is peace in that area, the USSR can prepare for Barbarossa and the Japanese can focus in China. That's the best solution for both countries IMHO.


Have the maps changed?

The map I posted shows Vladisvostok is in a clear hex.

If you put Zhukov away from the border isn't that more of an invitation for Japan to Dow the USSR?



The map you referenced is correct for MWIF. Vladivostok is in a Clear hex.

---

Declaring war on a major power (or even a minor country for that matter) shouldn't be based solely on the tactical advantage of the surprise impulse. You have to think at least 1 year out, and possibly more. If the DOW puts the major power into the war, then their production is substantially affected. Even if they were already at war, the DOW would given them unrestricted gearing limits for the turn. Trade agreements, threats to resources and their overseas pipelines, and how it affects your allies usually come into play.

So positioning Zhukov off the coast might induce the Japanese to DOW the USSR, but the question arises as to what that DOW does do to US Entry, the USSR Pacific submarines being active against Japanese convoys, the vulnerable Manchurian border and resources therein, how Germany feels about the DOW (they'll love it), ...

In many war games I've left tempting fruit dangle in front of my opponent (but I draw the line at saying "Oh no!" after I finish my turn). If they don't see the bear trap beneath the bait, then it will be a learning experience for them.

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 504
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/6/2013 5:51:46 AM   
Extraneous

 

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Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Declaring war on a major power (or even a minor country for that matter) shouldn't be based solely on the tactical advantage of the surprise impulse. You have to think at least 1 year out, and possibly more. If the DOW puts the major power into the war, then their production is substantially affected. Even if they were already at war, the DOW would given them unrestricted gearing limits for the turn. Trade agreements, threats to resources and their overseas pipelines, and how it affects your allies usually come into play.


In most cases you are correct about production but not in the case of the USSR vs. Japan in Siberia.

quote:

13.6.3 Production multiples
Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in supply enemy unit in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/6/2013 5:57:50 AM >


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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 505
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/7/2013 4:15:45 PM   
Extraneous

 

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You have all presented good plans that were well thought out but here is something for you all to think about.

quote:

6. Initiative Stage
In this stage you work out which side has the initiative. This affects who has the first impulse and who goes first in various other activities. Once you have the initiative, you keep it until this stage of next turn.

6.1 Determining initiative
Each side rolls a die. The space the marker occupies on the initiative track will give one side or the other a modifier (except in the middle space).

The side with the higher modified roll wins the initiative. If tied, the side that has the initiative from the previous turn loses.

The initiative track will indicate if you can demand a re-roll. If any active major power on a side demands a re-roll, move the marker one space towards the other side’s end of the track. Both sides now re-roll (with the new modifiers). The re-roll stands - there can be no further re-rolls.

Turn the marker to the side that has won the initiative.

9. Declaring war
9.3 Compulsory declarations

Germany must declare war on Poland in the first impulse of any game that starts in Sep/Oct 1939. No major power may make any other declaration of war in that impulse.

France and the Commonwealth must declare war on Germany on their first impulse after Germany has declared war on Poland. No major power may make any other declarations of war in that impulse.


The Axis has the initiative (Axis initiative modifier is +2) so the Axis must set up first.

Does anyone want to present a Japanese plan of attack on the USSR without the USSR setting up first?

Japanese Force Pools
1 (0) x MECH (5th Arm MECH 6-6)
1 (1) x MOT (2nd MOT 5-5)
1 (0) x MTN (1st MTN 5-4)
2 (2 and 1 division) x MAR (Imperial. Guard MAR 6-3, SNLF MAR 4-4, and 2nd SNLF MAR division 1-4)
9 (6) x INF (INF 4-3 ~ 18th and 27th
INF 5-3 ~ 2nd and 20th
INF 5-4 ~ 12th and 23rd
INF 6-3 ~ 6th and 11th
INF 8-3 ~ 25th)
1 (0) x PARA (1st PARA division 1-3)
10 (4) x MIL (China ~ Nanking MIL 4-2
Formosa ~ Taihoku MIL 2-2
3 (3) x GAR (28th GAR 4-1, 29th GAR 3-1, and 33rd GAR 4-1)
Korea ~ Seoul MIL 3-2
Manchuria ~ Harbin MIL 4-2
Japan ~ Fukouka MIL 4-2, Hiroshima MIL 5-3, Kyoto MIL 3-3, Nagoya MIL 5-2, Osaka MIL 5-3, and Tokyo MIL 6-2)
1 (1) x ENG division (1st ENG 1-3)
3 (3) x GUN (40mm AA 2-3, 70mm ART 2-3, and 105mm ART 3-2)

Japan
Yamamoto HQ-I (8-(4)-3)
1x MIL
2x MAR (Imperial Guard MAR 6-3 and SNLF MAR 4-4)
1x GUN
1x ENG

Manchuria, Korea
Terauchi HQ-I (6-(2)-3)
1x MOT (2nd MOT 5-5)
1x MIL
1x GAR
1x CAV

China or Hainan
Umezu HQ-I (5-(3)-3)
5x INF
2x MIL
2x GAR
2x GUN
2x INF division

3 (2) x FTR 2
3 (2) x LND 2

Asia/Pacific
1x INF
1x MAR division (2nd SNLF MAR division 1-4)

2 (1) x NAV 2
1 (1) x NAV 1

Aircraft Carriers ~ Akagi, Hiryu, Kaga, Ryujo, and Soryu
Light Aircraft Carrier ~ Hosho
Battleships ~ Fuso, Ise, Kongo, Nagato, Haruna, Hyuga, Kirishima, Mutsu, Yamashiro,
Heavy cruisers ~ Ashigara, Chikuma, Chokai, Furutaka, Haguro, Idzumo, Kumano, Kako, Maya, Mikuma, Mogami, Myoko, Nachi, Suzuya, and Tone
Light cruisers ~ Abukuma, Isuzu, Jintsu, Kinu, Kiso, Kitakami, Kuma, Nagara, Naka, Natori, Oi, Ping Hai (Ch), Sendai, Tama, Tatsuta, Tenryu, Yubari, and Yura
9x CVP
6x Pilots

3x TRS
1x AMPH
2x Submarines
20x CP
4x Oil

Construction pool
Aircraft Carrier ~ Shokaku
Light Aircraft Carriers ~ Chitose, Chiyoda, Ryuho, Shoho, and Zuiho

Repair pool
Battleship ~ Hiei
Heavy cruisers ~ Aoba, Asama, Atago, Kinugasa, Takao

Production circle
November/December 1939

Aircraft Carrier ~ Zuikaku [fd]
1x Submarine [fd]

January/February 1940
1x Offensive chit

March/April 1940
Light cruiser ~ Katori [fu]

May/June 1940
Light cruiser ~ Kashima [fu]

July/August 1940
Battleship ~ Yamato [fd]

quote:

9. Declaring war
9.6 Calling out the reserves

Each major power (exception: Vichy France, see 17.3 Units) has reserve units that you can call out when it goes to war with another major power.

You can always call out reserves that have ‘Res’ on the back of their counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its back, you can only call it out when you go to war with that major power.

You don’t have to call out all the eligible reserves at the first opportunity. Any you don’t call out are available while you are at war with a major power.

When you call out the reserves:
Move your eligible reserve units from the reserve pool to the map immediately in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2 Reinforcements) except that they are set-up face down; and
Put your eligible reserve units that have previously been removed from the game back into your force pools.

From now on, treat these reserves just like any other units.


quote:

4.2 Reinforcements
Where do reinforcements go?
MIL must be placed in the city or port named on the counter. If you lose control of the city or port, then whenever the unit is in the force pool, remove it from the game instead. If you retake the city, put the unit back in your force pool. If it could arrive but the city or port is fully stacked, put the MIL unit back onto the production circle to arrive next turn (exception: option 15 ~ Off city reinforcements, see below).

All remaining reinforcements must now go into a city you control in the unit’s home country.



A major power calls up its reserves during step 9. Declaring war.

Now lets look at the USSR vs. Japan including the USSR reserves.

Asian/Pacific
Zhukov HQ-A (8-(5)-4)
3x INF
1x CAV
1x Guns
1x CAV division

2(1) x FTR 2
1(1) x LND 3
2x Pilots

2x Submarines

Reserve vs. All
INF (1x 4-3 and 1x 7-4)
CAV (2-4)
MIL (Kuybyshev 3-2 and Vladivostok 4-3)



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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 506
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/7/2013 7:49:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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To a large degree the Japanese setup depends on the Chinese setup. Japan has too few units to hold a contiguous line in China, even setting up in every other hex is barely possible. So, the question is where are the Chinese? Japan has 3 possible avenues of attack in China:
1 - from the south
2 - in the north against the Communist Chinese
3 - in the center, heading directly towards Chungking.

China needs to defend all 3 of those potential frontlines. It is even possible for China to defend just 2 of them and build up a quasi-attacking force in the third.

Japan must deal with those issues before thinking about the USSR.

Typically the first couple of Axis impulses see the Japanese bring over as many units as possible from Japan to mainland Asia. Air units fly over using rebases. HQ's can be used to reorganize transports so more units can be transferred in a single turn. Because the ports in the south are closest to the frontline, that is where the new arrivals are usually deposited. That is, Japan sets up few units in the south and then dumps all the reinforcements there so there is an adequate number for operations.

An then there is the issue of weather. In most cases only one of the weather zones in China has good attack weather. Destroying 1 or 2 Chinese per turn is really important for Japan. Otherwise the Chinese army gets larger and larger over time. If all of Japan's energy is being expended against the USSR, then controlling the Chinese becomes quite difficult.

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 507
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/8/2013 6:10:03 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1776
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

To a large degree the Japanese setup depends on the Chinese setup. Japan has too few units to hold a contiguous line in China, even setting up in every other hex is barely possible. So, the question is where are the Chinese? Japan has 3 possible avenues of attack in China:
1 - from the south
2 - in the north against the Communist Chinese
3 - in the center, heading directly towards Chungking.

China needs to defend all 3 of those potential frontlines. It is even possible for China to defend just 2 of them and build up a quasi-attacking force in the third.

Japan must deal with those issues before thinking about the USSR.

Typically the first couple of Axis impulses see the Japanese bring over as many units as possible from Japan to mainland Asia. Air units fly over using rebases. HQ's can be used to reorganize transports so more units can be transferred in a single turn. Because the ports in the south are closest to the frontline, that is where the new arrivals are usually deposited. That is, Japan sets up few units in the south and then dumps all the reinforcements there so there is an adequate number for operations.

An then there is the issue of weather. In most cases only one of the weather zones in China has good attack weather. Destroying 1 or 2 Chinese per turn is really important for Japan. Otherwise the Chinese army gets larger and larger over time. If all of Japan's energy is being expended against the USSR, then controlling the Chinese becomes quite difficult.


I agree. As I posted in my reasons for Japan not to DoW the USSR,

If Japan wants to take Vladivostok and I assume some USSR resources then it has to be done early in the game.

Since the Axis sets up first there is no way to judge what the situation in China will or will not be.



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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 508
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/8/2013 6:39:39 PM   
Centuur


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The set up order for Global war is:

1. USA
2. USSR
3. Italy
4. China
5. CW
6. France
7. Japan
8. Germany

This means that the Japanese can react on any setup by Chinese and the USSR, because they set up last and not first...

See the scenario's booklet...


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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 509
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 7/8/2013 6:45:33 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 20053
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

To a large degree the Japanese setup depends on the Chinese setup. Japan has too few units to hold a contiguous line in China, even setting up in every other hex is barely possible. So, the question is where are the Chinese? Japan has 3 possible avenues of attack in China:
1 - from the south
2 - in the north against the Communist Chinese
3 - in the center, heading directly towards Chungking.

China needs to defend all 3 of those potential frontlines. It is even possible for China to defend just 2 of them and build up a quasi-attacking force in the third.

Japan must deal with those issues before thinking about the USSR.

Typically the first couple of Axis impulses see the Japanese bring over as many units as possible from Japan to mainland Asia. Air units fly over using rebases. HQ's can be used to reorganize transports so more units can be transferred in a single turn. Because the ports in the south are closest to the frontline, that is where the new arrivals are usually deposited. That is, Japan sets up few units in the south and then dumps all the reinforcements there so there is an adequate number for operations.

An then there is the issue of weather. In most cases only one of the weather zones in China has good attack weather. Destroying 1 or 2 Chinese per turn is really important for Japan. Otherwise the Chinese army gets larger and larger over time. If all of Japan's energy is being expended against the USSR, then controlling the Chinese becomes quite difficult.


I agree. As I posted in my reasons for Japan not to DoW the USSR,

If Japan wants to take Vladivostok and I assume some USSR resources then it has to be done early in the game.

Since the Axis sets up first there is no way to judge what the situation in China will or will not be.



Actually, from the AIO perspective, plans for setting up the Japanese can be done on the basis that I outlined above. China has a lot of resources that the Japanese would love to own - there are idle factories in Japan. Besides the ones Japan possesses at the start of the war, there are several that can be grabbed in the south if China leaves them vulnerable.

Another major choice for the Japanese is whether to wipe out the Communist Chinese or not. The Communists have better units, and also fewer. If Japan can take all the Communist cities, those units have no place to return to the map. It is quite lovely (from the Axis point of view) to see Communist Chinese units sitting in the Reinforcement Pool and being pushed ever onward, to arrive "next turn".

Then there is the heartland of China. If the central valley can be penetrated, Nationalist China will collapse. Those clear hexes on the other side of the mountains are easy to attack. Of course the mountains are in the way.

---

I guess this should be in the thread for the Japanese (or Chinese) AIO.

The attached screen shot shows the additional Chinese cities and ports we added (optional rule). The ovals identify which major power holds them at the start of the war.




Attachment (1)

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Extraneous)
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