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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 10/10/2011 7:00:03 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

OK I asked the designer of the game Harry Rowland:

If you add the Siberians, do you:
a) put the replaced INF back in the Russian force pool; or
b) remove the replaced INF from the game permanently?

His reply:
Back in the Russian force pool.

regards
harry









Good - no need to change any code.

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Steve

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 451
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 12/20/2012 3:17:54 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		Two questions I would like to throw out to spur some AI-relevant discussions for the USSR:

(1) What are decent guidelines for building air units as the USSR (e.g. when to build FTR and how many, same for LND, ATR, NAV, CVP)?

(2) We've discussed in some detail setting up and manoeuvring defences during the early, defensive stage of a German invasion. What about when the shoe is on the other foot and the USSR is on the offensive? What are good attacks in 1943? 1944? 1945?

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Post #: 452
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 12/20/2012 6:28:47 PM   
Centuur

 

Posts: 883
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Personally, I like to empty the LND4 pool with the USSR in 1939. Those are great planes, also for later in the game. Nothing better than those long range TB-3's. Apart from those, I don't build any aircraft, except FTR's (if I can, because mostly, when war begins, the USSR needs soldiers on the ground first, so thats top priority...).

After my survival in the far away parts of the USSR, than I'll slowly start building LND3, LND3 and FTR's. I've never build a NAV or a CVP, I'm afraid. ATR usually don't get build by me either. Long live the TB-3, one of the best planes in the game. If I lose one, I rebuild those immediately, if possible.

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Peter

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Post #: 453
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 12/20/2012 8:04:57 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 2324
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Depends if you want to Stuff. If so, build only enough pilots to get all the reserve planes on the board. That's an investment of 2 BPs per garrison point which is the cheapest way to go. Once you've built all the Garr, Inf, Mech, Mtn, Armor and HQs, then build Fighters.

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Paul

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Post #: 454
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 12/21/2012 2:03:45 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 1172
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		don't start the FTR builds until 1941 in hopes of getting quality. Build one/turn from then on if you can stand it once the attack starts. Have the Brits ready to send over the Hurricanes too, especially with the 2008 Lend Lease rule, much easier.

The Red Air Force can be devastating in 1944....drive on Ploesti and then slice open the soft underbelly before Churchill does and win the game!

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 455
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/7/2013 5:44:17 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		So for each category of air unit the USSR has in its force pools (of which there are 8) I would like to provide a brief summary of:

- general characteristics of this category of unit
- why build them
- when to build them
- in what quantity
- optional rules affecting production

The categories of air units are, with reference to the (sans pilot) build point cost of the unit:
- 2-point fighter (ftr2)
- 3-point fighter (ftr3)
- 2-point bomber (lnd2)
- 3-point bomber (lnd3)
- 4-point bomber (lnd4)
- 2-point naval bomber (nav2)
- 3-point air transport (atr3)
- 1-point carrier plane (cvp1)

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/7/2013 5:45:14 PM >

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Post #: 456
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/7/2013 6:36:05 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
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Status: offline 		USSR Carrier Plane (cvp1) Production

General Characteristics of USSR cvp1
The USSR has very few carrier plane units in its force pools, and these are of very poor quality compared to those of other major powers and compared to the USSR's own land-based air units.

Why Build cvp1?
There are three reasons why the USSR might build cvp1:

(1) To use in the same manner it uses ftr and lnd units, depending on the optional rules in play (see below).

(2) To deploy on carrier naval units it builds. This option is contingent upon the USSR building a carrier naval unit.

(3) To cheaply boost air unit gearing limits.

When to Build cvp1 & In What Quantity
When to build cvp1 depends on why the USSR is building them.

If as per (1) above, the USSR will consider building cvp1 whenever it would consider building other fighter, bomber, or naval bomber units. As part of such a mix of units, the USSR would typically build 0-2 cvp1 per turn.

If as per (2) above, the USSR should produce the cvp1 for deployment such that it arrives as a reinforcement on the same turn as the carrier arrives as a reinforcement. Quantity of cvp1 to be built to be based on the capacity of the carrier unit.

If as per (3) above, the USSR will consider building cvp1 whenever it has no more than one (1) spare build point and also wishes to boost air unit gearing limits in order to rapidly ramp up air unit production on subsequent turns. The USSR would typically only purchase 1 cvp1 unit at a time for this purpose as, if it had more than 1 spare build point, it could build another air unit which would almost certainly be superior than the cvp1.

Optional Rules Affecting cvp1 Production
Obviously, the most important optional rule is the optional allowing the existence of carrier plane units, as units separate from carriers themselves, in the first place. Without this rule the USSR cannot build cvp1 units at all.

The next most important optional rule is the optional restricting cvp units from performing any air mission except rebases if they are based on a hex (instead of on a carrier naval unit). If this optional in play, the USSR cannot build cvp1 as if they were land-based air units (option (1) in Why Build cvp1? above).

The next most important optional rule is the pilots rule. Without pilots, cvp1 cost 3 build points. Without pilots, there is no value in building cvp1 for purpose (3) above (boosting aircraft gearing) as they are much too expensive in such a case. Playing with pilots alters cvp1 reinforcement as now cvp1 may be placed without pilots into the reserve pools and to deploy cvp1 on the map the USSR must take care to ensure there are spare pilots available (either on the pilot track or arriving as a reinforcement on the same turn as the cvp1).

Other optional rules which may affect cvp1 production include:
- adding the carrier planes in flames (CVPiF) units, which increases the size of the cvp1 force pool.

There may be other optional rules which affect cvp1 production, however I cannot recall them at present (I will return & edit this post when I get a chance to review the rules again).

Any Other Considerations
Generally, I have tried to make my prescriptive statements above follow from the properties of USSR cvp1 (relative a2a & bombing factors compared to other units, cost, utility), rather than my personal view on USSR cvp1, as I don't want the USSR AIO to completely rule out building cvp1.

However, it must be said that the USSR will very rarely find any reason to build any cvp1 for any reason during a game of WiF.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/8/2013 3:13:25 PM >

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Post #: 457
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/17/2013 4:43:16 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		USSR Air Transport (atr3) Production

General Characteristics of USSR atr3
The USSR has a small number of atr3 available (if memory serves, 1 in 1939 and then they receive 2 more over the course of the game). These tend to have a range of 11 hexes. Their range is on average less than the range of CW/US/Ja atr units but on average higher than the range of Ge/It atr units.

Certain optional rules (discussed below) increase the quantity of units that can function as atr.

Why build atr3?
The USSR has three reasons to build atr3:

(1) To use to conduct paradrop missions.

(2) To use to conduct non-combat air transport missions.

(3) To use to conduct air re-organization missions.

When to build atr3 and in what quantity?
For each reason the USSR might build atr3 units, the answer to the question of when to build them is to produce atr3 such that they will be available to place on the map on the same turn (or the turn prior to) the USSR requires their availability to perform the mission in question.

e.g. If the USSR wants paradrop capability when attacking, say, Iraq, in July/August 1940 it must produce atr no later than January/February of the same year. Or, if the USSR wishes to have air reorganization capability while retreating its army during an expected German attack starting May/June 1941, it must produce atr no later than November/December 1940.

With regards to how many atr3 to produce, the USSR must produce sufficient atr3 to fulfill its desired mission requirements.

e.g. If in the summer of 1943 the USSR wishes to be able to use both its PARA corps and its para div in a single attack, it requires three atr on the map. If the use of paratrooper units will be spread out over the turn and the USSR is prepared to devote reorganization capacity to the task, one or two atr will suffice.

Optional Rules Affecting atr3 Production
The three most important rules affecting atr3 production are:

(1) Pilots. Without pilots, USSR atr3 cost 5 build points to build. With pilots, they cost 3 (and may be cheaper to lose if the pilot survives when the atr is destroyed in combat). Playing with pilots requires some coordination of pilot and plane production. On the other hand it allows for greater flexibility as the atr can be placed in (or cycled in and out of) reserves.

(2) Air transport-capable bombers. With this option, several USSR lnd4 can also function as atr3 units. Playing with this option may reduce the USSR's need for atr3 units.

(3) Variable reorganization. This option reduces the value of atr3 as expensive units require more effort to reorganize.

Other optional rules may modify atr3 production decisions.

Other Considerations
There are two considerations the USSR must generally take into account when deciding whether or not to produce atr3.

(1) Action limits. The USSR is highly constrained in its air action limits (e.g. 3 air missions in a land action). This will tend to reduce the relative value of atr3 as the USSR may find that other air missions (particularly ground strikes and rebases) are more important.

(2) Pre-/Early-war production requirements. 5 build points (for an atr3 or atr3 plus pilot) can build a blitz unit or two infantry units. The USSR may find that atr3 are low-priority items when preparing for a German invasion.

_____________________________

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Post #: 458
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/17/2013 6:08:42 PM   
Centuur

 

Posts: 883
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		I've never build ART3 with the USSR. Long live the TB3 bombers...

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Peter

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Post #: 459
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/17/2013 8:44:09 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		USSR Naval Bomber (nav2) Production

General Characteristics of USSR nav2
USSR 2-point naval bombers (nav2) are short-range (with extended range option). They tend to have comparable naval air factors to everyone else's early-war naval bombers. The USSR nav2 force pool does not significantly improve or expand during the game (only China's naval bomber force pool is worse, IIRC). USSR nav2 are also all (if memory serves) seaplanes, meaning they must base on coastal hexes.

Why build nav2?
The USSR has three reasons why it might want to produce nav2:

(1) Protect USSR/allied convoys from Axis sub/naval attack.

(2) Attack Axis naval units & convoys.

(3) Keep supply lines overseas open if the USSR is engaged in fighting across a body of water (such as invading Rumania or Bulgaria by sea, or invading Japan in the late game).

When to build nav2 and in what quantity?
The USSR should build nav2 such that nav2 units are available as required, which depends on their purpose (see above):

(1) The USSR should have nav2 available when both (a) a convoy chain to supply resource/build point lending has been established and (b) there is a credible threat to the convoys that the USSR's allies are not able to cover (or it is more convenient for the USSR to do it). (Example: covering the convoy line in the Arctic Ocean.) Unless a significant enemy threat is in play, a single nav2 should be sufficient.

(2) The USSR should have nav2 available such that, once it is at war with an Axis major power whose naval forces (at sea or in port) it could attack with naval bombers, they can be used at the earliest opportunity. Unless a large amount of enemy targets are available, a single nav2 should be sufficient.

(3) The USSR should have nav2 available to keep the supply line open from the start of USSR overseas operations provided pre-existing USSR naval forces are inadequate or nonexistent. Usually a single nav2 should be sufficient.

Optional Rules Affecting nav2 Production
- pilots; not using this optional makes nav2 less desireable due to their cost; if using pilots they are more desireable as they can get cycled into or out of reserves.
- maybe others

Other Considerations
Action Limits: Using nav2 for purposes other than reactive-defensive uses up action limits which the USSR may not wish to spare.


_____________________________

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Post #: 460
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/17/2013 8:46:11 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		Speaking personally, I've built 1 nav2 in tabletop WiF games against other players, and 1 in a solo game using Cyberboard. So 1 nav2 in 1/4 of games I've played as the USSR - not often. And in both cases its purpose was to defend the Arctic Ocean sea area convoys bringing resources & build points to Murmansk & Archangel.

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Post #: 461
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/21/2013 7:02:58 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		USSR 4-engine Bomber (lnd4) Production

General Characteristics of USSR lnd4
USSR lnd4 have moderate-to-very good tactical bombing factors (3-5), good-to-very good strategic bombing factors (5-7). They generally have poor air combat and naval bombing factors (0-2).

USSR lnd4 ranges are good for bombers overall, with some lnd4 (Pe-3-designation) having excellent range even for lnd4 (17 range).

Many USSR lnd4 have air transport capability if playing with the pertinent optional rule.

USSR Setup lnd4
The USSR begins the 1939 campaign with 1 lnd4 on the map and, if playing with pilots, 1 in the reserve pool.

Why Build (more) lnd4?
The USSR would buy lnd4 for the same reasons it would buy other lnd units: tactical and strategic bombing of Axis-controlled hexes, and offensive/defensive ground support. In addition, if playing with the pertinent optional rule, many of the USSR's lnd4 can double up as air transports.

USSR lnd4 offer good value for build points spent:
- long range allows them to remain stationary while the land front moves (both on offence & defence) for much longer than other air units.
- long range also allows more flexibility in use due to wider "target profile"
- tactical bombing factors are comparable (or superior) to other USSR lnd units until 1942-1943
- strategic bombing factors are superior to other USSR lnd units

When & How Many lnd4?
The USSR should decide what size of lnd4 fleet it wants on the map in each stage of the game and should produce lnd4 to meet that decision plus have an extra in the reserve pool in case of losses (if playing with pilots - if not extras are too expensive).

lnd4 production should also take into consideration the strategic situation (see below).

Optional Rules
Pilots: As noted above, pilots make lnd4 more accessible (less expensive, can be placed in Reserve pool, if destroyed the pilot may survive thus reducing cost of losses)

(RAW Option 35 - bomber/ATR versatility): This option, allowing certain lnd units to act as air transport units, makes the majority of USSR lnd4 more attractive by adding atr capabilities.

Variable reorganization: This option, makes lnd4 less attractive as they cost more to reorganize and, if the bomber/air transport dual role optional is in play, less effective at reorganizing certain units

Additional Considerations
If the USSR is trying to prevent a 1941 German declaration of war by stuffing the border, it should avoid building new lnd4.

lnd4 are useful as part of the defence against a 1941 or 1942 German attack; their utility is inversely proportional to the Axis (especially Italian) fighter coverage and the strength of the attack (e.g. lnd4 are less useful an "all-out" Barbarossa campaign with massive Italian air support) although there is a minimum utility to lnd4 regardless of the circumstances as their range means they can usually keep up with a rapdily-retreating front line

lnd4 are useful on the offence in Europe or Manchuria because of their long range - they can keep up even with a rapid advance

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Post #: 462
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 10:30:40 AM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

USSR Setup lnd4
The USSR begins the 1939 campaign with 1 lnd4 on the map and, if playing with pilots, 1 in the reserve pool.


At the start of 24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945:
The USSR Force pools contain 5x LND-4 (4x TB-3 (1931, 1934, 1935, and 1936) and 1x Petlyakov PE-8 (1939)).

WiF
Gives 1x LND-4 to the USSR set up.

PiF Aircraft.
Adds 1x LND-4 to the USSR set up.

The player chooses which planes to assign pilots. If the player chooses to not to assign pilots to them the aircraft are then assigned to the reserve pool. The USSR starts the scenario with 6x pilots.



So you're saying that:

The LND-4 should be built if you are at war with Japan.

What about Rumania and Finland?

The LND-4 should not be built if you are "Stuffing the Border". Because they won't count towards the Garrison value (see 9.5 Neutrality pacts) unless they are within 3 hexes of the border?

When it has enough friendly FTR coverage:
The LND-4 makes a good static bomber.
All 4x TB-3 LND-4 can fly ATR/Paratroop missions



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/22/2013 10:41:23 AM >

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Post #: 463
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 2:49:53 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		aircraft should be worth more to the AI when you are not playing with fractional odds I think. perhaps that should be one of those decisions that is set the same for all AI games. without fractional odds, fighter-bombers delivering a single point of ground support are worth a lot more, as are planes with good abilities to operate at night, as goofy as that can be at times (and something I believe will be going away in future editions of the game). LND-4 flying in from bases safely far away from the front are good for this.

One thing the Russians should always do is set up both LND-4 at start, rather than one of their weaker late-30s LND-3, though several of those are quite good.

LND-4 are more useful for war in Manchuria or Persia than in eastern Europe, though I do not recommend Russia choosing to operate in either theater. in the mid-war I think I would only build them if I can get enough extra $$$ from the West to pay for them. the anti-tank models of FTR2, LND2, and even LND3 are more valuable at the front.

but overall, the looming paradigm for the USSR is war with Germany, and for that you need ground troops, ground troops, ground troops. I posted before Christopher started this great series about my preference for actual aircraft builds.

I have definitely built NAV-2 for the USSR. they can serve well in the Caspian Sea operating effectively as pure recon to help protect oil convoys threatened by Axis naval bombers, as well as the Arctic Ocean. Later they can deliver benefits in the Baltic or Black Sea as well. Anywhere the Russian NAV can operate is generally unlikely to be enough of a priority for Axis land-based air to counter them, and subtle advantages then accrue to the Soviets, though they can only very rarely afford a Combined Impulse to activate a sea-zone.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 464
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 2:52:27 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		lnd4 are good in any theatre (Eastern Front, Far East, &c &c). The USSR needs to decide, based on its strategic planning and forecast Axis intentions, how many lnd4 it wants and when it wants them, and produce them accordingly.

The USSR should not build lnd4 from its force pool while trying to stuff the border because they are hugely inefficient (6 bps for 1 garrison). It should build pilots to fill out its reserve planes (if that option is in play) because that's 2 bps for 1 garrison, which is as efficient as it gets.

The setup I have cited is correct, see 24.1.6:
quote:

PiF: If you are playing with Planes in Flames, for each location and type of aircraft [randomly] draw aircraft from your force pool equal to the totals listed in both the WiF column and the PiF column. Go through those and select enough (i.e. you can choose which) to set up just those listed in the WiF column. Put the rest back into your force pools. If you are also playing with pilots (PiF option 28), you use up a pilot for each aircraft you set up and put any spare aircraft into the reserve pool instead.


< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/22/2013 3:29:08 PM >

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 465
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 3:28:23 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		USSR Twin-Engine Bomber (lnd3) Production

General Characteristics of USSR lnd3
USSR lnd3 in the early game have poor to moderate tactical bombing factors (2-3). In the mid- to late-game their tactical factors improve to good or very good (4-5 factors). As noted in brian brian's post #464 several of them (including a potential US lend-lease bomber) have additional anti-tank capability.

USSR lnd3 air combat factors range from 1-5, with earlier units generally having worse air combat.

USSR lnd3 mostly have poor naval bombing factors (0-1) with some exceptions. They generally have moderate to good strategic bombing factors (3-5 factors).

USSR Set-up lnd3
The USSR begins the 1939 campaign setting up:
- in Europe 2 lnd3 (plus 1 in reserve)
- on any map (USSR-controlled hexes only, of course) 1 lnd3 (plus 1 in reserve)

Why Build (more) lnd3?
The USSR builds lnd3 for the same reason it builds other bombers: tactical and strategic bombing of Axis targets and offensive/defensive ground support.

USSR lnd3 are approximately as effective at tactical bombing as lnd2/lnd4. They have better range and strategic factors than lnd2 but worse range/strategic bombing than lnd4. Their air combat factors are worse than lnd2 but better than lnd4.

Any time the USSR is considering producing bombers, it should consider producing lnd3.

When to Produce lnd3, and How Many?
Keeping in mind the USSR's strategic plan, the overall strategic situation, available production, and so on, the USSR should consider producing lnd3 and lnd2, taken together, to meet the following requirements:
- on strategic offence, 2-3 bombers to ground strike a hex each impulse of a turn (2 bombers firing at 3-5 tactical factors is usually required to disorganize most or all defending units, plus a bomber to soak losses), so a good baseline is 10-12 bombers by the beginning of 1943.
- on strategic defence, 1-2 bombers to provide ground support to 2-3 hexes or to make opportunistic ground strikes (unprotected HQs or vanguard hexes), so a good baseline is 5-6 bombers by early 1941.
- scale up from the defence to the offence amount during the transition from strategic defence to strategic offence

Optional Rules
Pilots make lnd3 more accessible (less expensive, can be placed in Reserve pool, if destroyed the pilot may survive thus reducing cost of losses).

Additional Considerations
As with lnd4, lnd3 are very inefficient to generate garrison and should not be built out of the force pool when the USSR is attempting to "stuff the border" against Germany in 1941.

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Post #: 466
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 3:35:18 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		One optional rule which affects all planes is of course oil (it is an optional rule, after all).

Oil reduces the utility of air units slightly because it costs oil to reorganize them (cvp, lnd2, ftr2, nav2 count as half a unit or 1/10 oil; lnd3, lnd4, ftr3, atr3 count as one unit or 1/5 oil).

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 467
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 4:34:14 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
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Status: offline 		USSR Single-Engine Bomber (lnd2) Production

General Characteristics of USSR lnd2
USSR lnd2 have moderate to very good tactical bombing factors (3-5 factors). One lnd2 has excellent (6) factors and one has poor (2) factors (although it is, if playing with the appropriate optional rule, a tank buster).

USSR lnd2 have poor to moderate air combat factors (3-5 factors).

USSR lnd2 have terrible to poor strategic and naval bombing factors (0-2 factors).

USSR Set-up lnd2 & lnd2 Availability
The USSR does not set up any lnd2.

The USSR can build up to 14 different lnd2.

Why Build lnd2?
The USSR builds lnd2 for the same reason it builds other bombers: tactical and strategic bombing of Axis targets and offensive/defensive ground support.

USSR lnd2 are slightly better at tactical bombing than lnd3/lnd4.

USSR lnd2 are less expensive. On the other hand, they have much shorter range (typical range 3 hexes compared to 5/5x to 7 for lnd3 and 11+ for lnd4).

Any time the USSR is considering producing bombers, it should consider producing lnd2.

When to Produce lnd2, and How Many?
Keeping in mind the USSR's strategic plan, the overall strategic situation, available production, and so on, the USSR should consider producing lnd3 and lnd2, taken together, to meet the following requirements:
- on strategic offence, 2-3 bombers to ground strike a hex each impulse of a turn (2 bombers firing at 3-5 tactical factors is usually required to disorganize most or all defending units, plus a bomber to soak losses), so a good baseline is 10-12 bombers by the beginning of 1943.
- on strategic defence, 1-2 bombers to provide ground support to 2-3 hexes or to make opportunistic ground strikes (unprotected HQs or vanguard hexes), so a good baseline is 5-6 bombers by early 1941.
- scale up from the defence to the offence amount during the transition from strategic defence to strategic offence

lnd2 are superior on the offence, compared to the defence, due to their range. During a mobile defence they are at risk of being overrun if used.

Optional Rules
Pilots make lnd2 more accessible (less expensive, can be placed in Reserve pool, if destroyed the pilot may survive thus reducing cost of losses).

When playing with oil, lnd2 are more attractive than heavier bombers because they cost less oil to reorganize.

If playing with tank busters, lnd2 are more attractive as they have more of these kinds of units (6 tank buster lnd2 vs 3 tank buster lnd3 or 0 lnd4). 'Tank busters' receive double factors on ground support, or roll double dice on ground strikes, when firing on ARM/MECH and HQ-A.

Additional Considerations
None at this time

----------
Overall, I would expect lnd3/lnd4 to form a larger portion of the USSR bomber fleet in the first half of the game, and lnd2 to become more prominent later on.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/22/2013 5:15:57 PM >

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Post #: 468
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 4:50:29 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

lnd4 are good in any theatre (Eastern Front, Far East, &c &c). The USSR needs to decide, based on its strategic planning and forecast Axis intentions, how many lnd4 it wants and when it wants them, and produce them accordingly.

The USSR should not build lnd4 from its force pool while trying to stuff the border because they are hugely inefficient (6 bps for 1 garrison). It should build pilots to fill out its reserve planes (if that option is in play) because that's 2 bps for 1 garrison, which is as efficient as it gets.

The setup I have cited is correct, see 24.1.6:
quote:

PiF: If you are playing with Planes in Flames, for each location and type of aircraft [randomly] draw aircraft from your force pool equal to the totals listed in both the WiF column and the PiF column. Go through those and select enough (i.e. you can choose which) to set up just those listed in the WiF column. Put the rest back into your force pools. If you are also playing with pilots (PiF option 28), you use up a pilot for each aircraft you set up and put any spare aircraft into the reserve pool instead.




I think what your saying is you suggest that 1x LND-4 be placed in the reserve pool.

Then when your pilot that you build comes off the production circle you can bring the aircraft out of the reserve pool.

Which is less expensive than building an aircraft and pilot.



But what I'm saying is that no aircraft starts in the reserve pool as you posted from the rules:

quote:

If you are also playing with pilots (PiF option 28), you use up a pilot for each aircraft you set up and put any spare aircraft into the reserve pool instead.


You have 6 pilots you could put one on both LND-4.


_____________________________

It's not worth doing something unless you were doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 469
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 5:04:23 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		See the line from 24.1.6:
quote:

Go through those and select enough (i.e. you can choose which) to set up just those listed in the WiF column. [Emphasis mine.]


For the USSR 1939 Global War setup, the 'WiF' column in the set-up chart shows 1 LND4 and the 'PiF' column also shows 1 LND4.

Given the line I have cited immediately above, only one of those LND4 can be set up on the map at the very start of the game (player's choice).

Given the next sentences in 24.1.6:
quote:

Put the rest back into your force pools. If you are also playing with pilots (PiF option 28), you use up a pilot for each aircraft you set up and put any spare aircraft into the reserve pool instead.


the other one either goes back into the force pool or into the reserves (depending on whether pilots are in play or not).

To recap, when setting up LND4 in the 1939 campaign in WiF, assuming Planes in Flames units are being used, the USSR:
(1) Randomly draws two (2) LND4 from the force pool
(2) Chooses one (1) LND4 to be placed on the map
(3) The other LND4 is placed in reserves (if playing with pilots) or in the force pool (if not)

Because of the way the rule is worded, the USSR must set up on the map:
- in Europe, 1 FTR2, 2 LND3 and 1 LND4
- on any map (where USSR controls hexes), 1 FTR2 and 1 LND3

If playing with pilots the USSR will end up with 4 FTR2, 1 LND3 and 1 LND4 in the reserve pool.

After placing units, if playing with pilots, the USSR may remove air units from the map and place them in the reserves, and on the Nov/Dec 1939 reinforcement step it may place air units in the reserves (such as the other LND4) on the map.

I know MWiF automatically includes Planes in Flames units. I won't say I'm certain that MWiF will handle set-up identically to WiF:FE, but I'm not aware of there being any variance in the set-up rules. Perhaps Steve can comment?

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/22/2013 5:11:05 PM >

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 470
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 5:55:18 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		USSR Twin-Engine Fighter (ftr3) Production

General Characteristics of USSR ftr3
USSR ftr3 have air combat factors ranging from 5-9, comparable to their ftr2, although they have less variance because they do not have poor-quality early-war models.

USSR ftr3 range is either 5 or 7 hexes for USSR national units and ranges of 13, 18 & 20 hexes for lend-lease units (the 20-hex range ftr3 is the P-61 Black Widow).

USSR ftr3 have negligible strategic or naval bombing factors overall unless they are lend-lease units, in which case they have poor to moderate factors.

USSR ftr3 have negligible to moderate tactical bombing factors (USSR-nationality) or even good to very good/excellent tactical bombing factors (lend-lease units; in particular the P-61 has 6 tactical bombing factors, making it as good as the best USSR bombers).

All USSR ftr3 are night-fighters; the majority of USSR ftr3 are high-performance (do not suffer a penalty against ftr2 in air combat).

USSR ftr3 Setup
The USSR does not set up any ftr3.

ftr3 become available in the force pool starting (if memory serves) in 1941.

Why Build ftr3?
USSR ftr3 are comparable to their ftr2, with one notable exception: the P-61s are very useful aircraft (although not as good at air combat as ftr2).

So any time the USSR would build any fighter units, it has no particular reason to prefer ftr2 or ftr3 over the other group. It does have an incentive to build out the ftr3 force pool to ensure the P-61s can be produced if the US lends them.

If the USSR intends on undertaking night missions it should produce ftr3 as these night fighters fight at an advantage over non-night fighters (non-night fighters are less effective, tending to shoot down & abort bombers less and clearing them through more).

When to Build ftr3 and how many?
Anytime the USSR would produce fighters, it could produce ftr3.

The total number of fighters the USSR should have on the map is contingent upon its strategic plans, the presence of Axis fighters (the more Axis ftr, the more the USSR needs, especially since German ftr are 1-2 factors superior to USSR ftr of the same year) in opposition to the USSR, availability of build points, and the strategic situation.

The USSR can't build ftr3 until 1941 (at the earliest). Once ftr3 are available it may wish to build up to 1/turn until the force pool is empty.

Optional Rules
Oil favours ftr2 over ftr3 as the former cost less oil to reorganize.

The tank buster and twin-engine-fighter optional rules (the latter does not add ftr3 to the game, rather it makes them weaker against ftr2) favour ftr2 slightly, as there are 2-3 ftr2 with tank buster tactical factors and 2-4 ftr3 which are weaker against ftr2.

Pilots make all ftr units more accessible in the same manner it makes other air units more accessible, particularly on defence when air combats will tend to occur over USSR hexes.

Additional Considerations
The P-61s are a very strong addition to the USSR arsenal and the USSR should encourage the US to lend at least one to them.

-----
Note:
The above descriptions on aircraft lent from other Allied major powers may not be applicable to MWiF. In WiF:FE there are specific lend-lease air units that the USSR adds to its force pools provided the lending power agrees to transfer a corresponding unit to the lend-lease pool, with the units restricted by the counter mix. CWiF did it differently: the lending power could (if I recall correctly) designate any unit in its force pool for lending to someone else. If MWiF does aircraft lending the way CWiF did then major powers have more flexibility in lending units than might be expressed by these notes.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 471
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 8:09:30 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 2324
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

See the line from 24.1.6:
quote:

Go through those and select enough (i.e. you can choose which) to set up just those listed in the WiF column. [Emphasis mine.]


For the USSR 1939 Global War setup, the 'WiF' column in the set-up chart shows 1 LND4 and the 'PiF' column also shows 1 LND4.

Given the line I have cited immediately above, only one of those LND4 can be set up on the map at the very start of the game (player's choice).

Right. 12 planes, 6 pilots and only one LND4 that can set-up to start with. Of course this can be reconfigured later on by removing planes and pilots one turn(even SO39) and putting on different planes the next turn. Or building more pilots.

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Paul

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 472
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 8:14:19 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks to Matrix Games' forum login/logout times, I swear I've had to redo 3-4 of these air unit production posts.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 473
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 10:40:02 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 1172
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		always copy a long post to the clipboard before you click OK to keep from the logout erasing it. sometimes you can save it by hitting the back button on a browser too.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 474
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/22/2013 11:35:16 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

always copy a long post to the clipboard before you click OK to keep from the logout erasing it


I keep thinking I should do that and then keep forgetting to... alas...

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~ Composer99

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 475
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/24/2013 5:59:41 PM   
composer99


Posts: 1360
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		USSR Single-Engine Fighter (ftr2) Production

General Characteristics of USSR ftr2
USSR ftr2 have air combat factors ranging from 3 (pre/early war models) to 9 (late/post war models).

USSR ftr2 range is generally low, typically ranging from 2-5 hexes.

USSR ftr2, with some exceptions, have poor tactical bombing factors and even poorer naval or strategic bombing factors.

USSR ftr2 Setup & Availability
The USSR begins the 1939 campaign setting up 1 ftr2 on the Europe map and 1 ftr2 on any map (on hexes the USSR controls). If playing with pilots, it sets 4 ftr2 up in the reserve pool.

If playing with pilots the USSR has no ftr2 available in the force pool in 1939. Whether playing with pilots or not it adds ftr2 every year, often in significant numbers.

Why Produce ftr2?
The USSR must have ftr units on the map in order to:
- contest enemy bombing/paradrop missions against USSR hexes, enemy bombing missions against USSR naval units at sea, or enemy non-combat missions (air transport/reorganization)
- defend corresponding USSR missions from being contested by enemy ftr units

If it does not produce ftr units, it will not be able to accomplish these tasks, with follow-on negative consequences for USSR strategic situation and operational/tactical considerations.

The USSR will tend to produce ftr2 by default as these are the most numerous ftr units in the USSR force pools.

When to Build ftr2 & in What Quantity?
USSR ftr2 production will vary based on:
- available build points (more == more ftr2 and vice-versa)
- other production requirements (land units, other air units, &c) (more == less ftr2 and vice-versa)
- the strategic situation (some circumstances will call for more ftr2, some less, multiple circumstances may be at work simultaneously)
- quantity and quality of ftr units in the force pool (more and better ftr2 == more ftr2 production)
- quantity and quality of USSR ftr units on the map vs quantity and quality of enemy ftr units in areas USSR will contest in the air (more requirement for more & better ftr2 == more ftr2 production and vice-versa)
- available reserves to absorb losses (more & better reserves == less ftr2 production and vice-versa)

As a rule of thumb, USSR production of ftr2 will tend to be lower (0 or 1 units per turn) in the early game and will tend to scale up (2 or 3 units per turn, maybe more on some turns) in the mid to late game.

Optional Rules Affecting ftr2 Production
Pilots: Pilots makes ftr2 more accessible - see other entries upthread for specific effects of pilots

Oil: Oil tends to reduce the utility of all oil-dependent units (such as air units) slightly; in addition ftr2 become more attractive due to their lower oil cost compared to ftr3

ftr2 can be made more attractive than ftr3 (without necessarily changing overall ftr production) if tank busters & twin-engine (reduced ftr3 performance vs ftr2) fighter optionals are in play.

Additional Considerations
I can't think of any at this time.

(PS this was the last one of these posts, all eight categories of USSR air unit as noted in #456 have been brought up)

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 476
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