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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/28/2010 8:37:21 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Persia :
Russia can easily take advantage of Persia (especially in CWiF where Teheran is in a Clear hex -- I would advise to put it back in a Mountain hex), and grab the 3 Oil resources it has.

Advantages :
Those 3 Oil wil come handy when Russia has to use oil to reorg oil dependant units, and the one Oil that is railable will be useful to help to produce at maximum level while Russia is giving 5 RP & 2 Oil to Germany. Also, this oil can be useful when Russia is rampaged by Germany and a lot of her resources are conquered.
Russia can use the Army of Siberia led by Zhukov for this, and only leave Vladivostock & the area to the defense of a couple of the weakest units and the reserves.

Drawback :
Using the Army of Siberia led by Zhukov to do this, might lead to an aggressive Japan play around Vlad. Anyway, if Japan had planned on taking Vlad and the surrounding area, Russian could not do much to prevent it.



I see other drawbacks :
- Worsening the relations with Commonwealth if played by a different player as USSR.
- Negative hit on US entry probable.
- Danger of the Japan aligning Persia and seizing the persian oil.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 331
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/28/2010 9:18:56 PM   
paulderynck


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Japan must DoW Russia or teleport out when Persia is conquered. However they can get all three oil so this should be a possibility Japan thinks hard about. As Japan I try to make sure I have SCS with Divs or a 4-4 TRS available in Canton or Hainan so that I can go after the oil if Russia DoWs Persia. As Russia I mass on the border with Persia to threaten the possibility.

One way to really intimidate Japan from coming after the oil is to DoW Persia with both USSR and CW. CW takes the oil for a turn while USSR occupies Tehran. Likely this is costly for US entry though. But the best Japan can do is set up the Persian Cav on the 2-oil hex, align them, and reinforce them if necessary. Even then, they get only 2 oil for one turn, unless they DoW Russia.

I observed a game recently where Japan invaded Persia, thinking they could take at least 2 oil for the balance of the game even if Persia aligned with Russia. This is because if Persia defends the 2-oil hex, the defenders can be easily put out of supply and Persia's controller faces the prospect of losing all 3 oil. So normally the Persian Cav is set up on the 1-oil hex. But Russia was ready, set up the Persian Cav on the 2-oil hex and then surprised Japan by airlifting peacekeepers into the city beside the now Japanese controlled 1-oil hex as well as onto the Persian Cav. (It was verified by Harry that Japan could not intercept the Russian ATRs, per the Multiple States of War rules, even if they flew to re-org a flipped Persian!) That game is ongoing and it will be interesting to see what Japan does next.

Another thought to counter a Japanese invasion of Persia when Russia is not in position - if France hasn't fallen yet - align Persia with France. Possibly CW peacekeepers can still land and save one oil hex. Meanwhile Russia could look at a DoW on Japan and RRing units into Tehran. Then later if Persia goes Vichy, the Japanese must leave. Russia must be careful though, and not go deeper then hexes adjacent to the Caspian since they cannot trace supply into any of the Persian hexes in this case - until at war with Germany. Of course Russia also needs a CONV in the Caspian (something many players do anyway).



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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/28/2010 9:29:22 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Japan must DoW Russia or teleport out when Persia is conquered. However they can get all three oil so this should be a possibility Japan thinks hard about. As Japan I try to make sure I have SCS with Divs or a 4-4 TRS available in Canton or Hainan so that I can go after the oil if Russia DoWs Persia. As Russia I mass on the border with Persia to threaten the possibility.



Why DOW Russia, he can ship troops in Persia before it's conquered. If Japan has a fast TRS in Indochina, he moves & rebases in Persia at the end of turn before conquest phase. All Japan has to do is align Persia if USSR DOWs Persia.


_____________________________

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"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 333
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/28/2010 9:49:40 PM   
Phelan

 

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Japan won´t achieve anything if it only aligns Persia and sends peacekeepers, since those will teleport out of there after conquest.

DOWing Russia will allow them to stay after Persia is conquered.


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/29/2010 4:18:57 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phelan

Japan won´t achieve anything if it only aligns Persia and sends peacekeepers, since those will teleport out of there after conquest.

DOWing Russia will allow them to stay after Persia is conquered.



Exactly. Although Japan can get oil for one turn since re-org and production is before conquest. But she has to have convoys in place if playing LOS and the most likely way to do that is to have Italy at war and be operating from a port somewhere in the Italian African possessions.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/29/2010 1:42:27 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phelan

Japan won´t achieve anything if it only aligns Persia and sends peacekeepers, since those will teleport out of there after conquest.

DOWing Russia will allow them to stay after Persia is conquered.



Ah forgot that detail, anyway I think a DOW on USSR for 3 oil is really worth it.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Phelan)
Post #: 336
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/30/2010 12:51:51 AM   
brian brian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phelan

Japan won´t achieve anything if it only aligns Persia and sends peacekeepers, since those will teleport out of there after conquest.

DOWing Russia will allow them to stay after Persia is conquered.



Ah forgot that detail, anyway I think a DOW on USSR for 3 oil is really worth it.


my favorite Japanese strategy is to lay in wait for this. The long-range TRS in Canton is a given, but another key is to keep Manchuria very weak. Japan basically operates on interior lines somewhat with it's Chinese front near sea-ports, plenty of lift, rail connections between Manchuria and China, and highly mobile fleet units that can dominate the Russian coast-line; this makes it easy to shift in to a war with Russia whenever Japan wants, whether they look ready for such a war or not.

For this reason I no longer consider a Russian attack on Persia if Germany appears to be building for a Barbarossa campaign.

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 337
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/30/2010 1:38:11 PM   
micheljq


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I think USSR must consider an attack on Persia if Axis is on a strong mediterranean strategy especially if Syria/Irak is threatened or Egypt is lost or seriously threatened. Even an attack on Irak is feasible, there is 2 oil there transportable via rail to USSR. If the anglo-americans are frustrated because of an attack on Persia, well it's time to tell them to play the option 19 so that USSR can lend lease 1 persian oil to Commonwealth.

Some of this is written in the scenario notes.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 4/30/2010 4:24:07 PM >


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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

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Post #: 338
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 4/30/2010 9:46:36 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I observed a game recently where Japan invaded Persia, thinking they could take at least 2 oil for the balance of the game even if Persia aligned with Russia. This is because if Persia defends the 2-oil hex, the defenders can be easily put out of supply and Persia's controller faces the prospect of losing all 3 oil. So normally the Persian Cav is set up on the 1-oil hex. But Russia was ready, set up the Persian Cav on the 2-oil hex and then surprised Japan by airlifting peacekeepers into the city beside the now Japanese controlled 1-oil hex as well as onto the Persian Cav. (It was verified by Harry that Japan could not intercept the Russian ATRs, per the Multiple States of War rules, even if they flew to re-org a flipped Persian!) That game is ongoing and it will be interesting to see what Japan does next.

Update on that game.

Russia is poised to attack the Japanese with a surprise DoW. She holds the 2-oil hex and the other two hexes adjacent to the JP-controlled 1-oil hex. It is SO40. The Axis had the initiative and a Plus 1. They roll 7. Allies roll 7. Axis requests a re-roll and rolls a 6. Allies roll another 7! Smacking their lips now at the impending destruction of the Japanese, the Allies roll for weather. It's a 10! Only a 20% chance of rain in the Med and they get it. Russia decides to wait. Japan reinforces the landing zone and prepares another landing force in the Persian Gulf so they can outflank and eventually surround the 2-oil hex. (Russia has a very difficult time getting supply to that hex as it must all come overland and the nearest railhead is 4 hexes away.)

Next allied impulse weather roll: another ten!!

The best laid plans of men and mice are always subject to vagaries of chance.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 5/1/2010 12:55:45 AM   
brian brian

 

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maybe the Russian player should go online somewhere and complain that this should never happen and obviously the weather table should be changed...

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 5/1/2010 4:54:42 AM   
paulderynck


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He should be so lucky when Barbarossa starts.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 5/1/2010 9:00:58 PM   
brian brian

 

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exactly. the scariest Barbarossa comes after the Germans slogged through a nearly pure rain May/Jun 40, a short-as-possible Jul/Aug 40, and then back to total storms in Sep/Oct for the death struggle for Paris. One of the greatest things about WiF is the what-goes-around-comes-around nature of the dice in the game, imo.

Now, it was frustrating as all heck one winter when my nicely winterized Russians were poised to return from Siberia at many different points after a particularly ferocious '41 Barbarossa and neither the Arctic nor North Temperate zone had any Snow weather (some Blizzards, mostly Storm) from Sep/Oct 43 through to the next Mar/Apr ....... but I still crossed the Vistula in September 1944 as the sun never set after that and we basically re-played the Destruction of Army Group Centre (and North and Ukraine and North Ukraine and whatever crazy Army Group names Adolf was throwing on his poor little units who just couldn't run away fast enough.)

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/12/2010 3:44:08 PM   
jjdenver

 

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Hm. I've read parts of this thread and there is something that I don't understand.

I've never been pushed into the Urals or fallen back to the Urals as USSR, so I've got no practical experience w/ that strategy.

A lot of the posters seem to suggest that the USSR retreat to the Urals, and rail all its factories to the Urals and Murmansk/Archangel.

There are only 8 resources available to USSR if they fall back to the Urals (assuming Japan by this time takes the far east). Even if allies can get resources through to 3 factories in Murmansk/Archangel, that's only 11 resources total.

How can the USSR possibly come back with 11 resources? Production if the Germans don't attack is only going to be about 14 BP per turn in 1943. This doesn't seem like enough to come back even if the Soviets have preserved most of their army by retreating.

Thanks for any insight.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/12/2010 5:36:46 PM   
paulderynck


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You would not retreat to the Urals unless forced there and often there may be other pockets of resistance like around Leningrad and/or in the Caucasus and/or holding railed factories in Archangel or Murmansk. Urals plus Caucasus is viable if you can keep convoys in the Caspian to bring oil to the factories in Siberia. Western Allies can send resources and build points to Murmansk and Archangel.

With only Siberia, you are in a tough spot to come back unless you have managed to build up a lot of stored oil there as well - to augment production.


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/12/2010 5:49:24 PM   
jjdenver

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
You would not retreat to the Urals unless forced there and often there may be other pockets of resistance like around Leningrad and/or in the Caucasus and/or holding railed factories in Archangel or Murmansk. Urals plus Caucasus is viable if you can keep convoys in the Caspian to bring oil to the factories in Siberia. Western Allies can send resources and build points to Murmansk and Archangel.

With only Siberia, you are in a tough spot to come back unless you have managed to build up a lot of stored oil there as well - to augment production.


Ok thanks. That's what I suspected but it's nice to have it confirmed.

Cheers

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/12/2010 6:33:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You would not retreat to the Urals unless forced there and often there may be other pockets of resistance like around Leningrad and/or in the Caucasus and/or holding railed factories in Archangel or Murmansk. Urals plus Caucasus is viable if you can keep convoys in the Caspian to bring oil to the factories in Siberia. Western Allies can send resources and build points to Murmansk and Archangel.

With only Siberia, you are in a tough spot to come back unless you have managed to build up a lot of stored oil there as well - to augment production.


But there is a problem as to how many saved build points can be used in production if you only have Murmansk for getting in Lend Lease from the Allies. I had to write special code to limit the number of saved BPs being used at each city - which was a pain to write.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/12/2010 7:21:22 PM   
paulderynck


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Not saved build points - lend leased build points. Russia could save her own there (although hard to figure why she'd do this in a typical game with more than one or two) and spend any amount.

But lend leased build points won't even arrive without being able to reach sufficient factory/major port capacity limits.


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/13/2010 1:19:08 AM   
brian brian

 

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you don't simply retreat straight back to the Urals. you carefully choose which units the Axis can attack, and where. the goal is to keep your HQ (even rail moving the slow ones) and ARM and MECH as long as you possibly can, hopefully all the way back to the valley south of the Caucasus and the Volga line in front of the Urals. At those points you have to turn and fight even with the armor. But before that you need to trade in your GARR and INF for railing out factories and impulses of Axis time (and some MIL, but over-reliance on weak MIL can make things too easy for the Germans; it is also key to scrap your 3 and 4 factor units after they are lost). keeping your ARM and MECH alive is a matter of managing your fighter cover well to help keep them from getting ground-struck, and just generally keeping them out of range of the Stukas at least. To do that you have to move them backwards, which is a retreat. two ARM/MECH units in a clear hex, outside of Stuka range, are a strong defense, especially when they can only be attacked from two hexes, and are unlikely to even be attacked while the Axis is also busy reducing your cities full of infantry. all that changes as soon as those tanks are without enough Fighter cover and within range of too many Axis bombers - watch carefully for strong Axis LND3.

trying to maintain a strong solid line in front of the Axis for too long allows them to use their air superiority and blitz bonuses (smart Panzer commanders change Shatter results to Retreat results to keep the Russian units from the safety of the production spiral) to destroy your units too fast for you to replace them. you will lose units no matter what; the key is to keep your best units until the Axis forces start to thin out as they have to divide their efforts on to the many strategic axes that are key to the long-term Russian defense - Leningrad, Archangel, the rail lines to the Urals (Saratov and Kuybyshev are key hexes now), the Turkish border and then Baku, and the Crimea.

and once the front stabilizes on those various axes, yes it is true that Russia is resource limited. key aids then are convoys in the Caspian, factories in Murmansk and Baku (for Persian Gulf / Suez resource and BP deliveries from the Western Allies), and also factories railed to Archangel to run off saved oil while the port is frozen (thanks Composer99). It also helps to store 8 oil in Leningrad to keep producing during the siege.

saved oil is a big help to the Russians in lots of places and ways. one saved in Rostov with the Koniev HQ might make the difference between a successful Axis attack and another turn of a large German force stuck on trying to clear the hex. an oil in Sevastopol will give the Axis concern about it someday fueling Russian aircraft for runs at Ploesti (an historic fear of Hitler's). a saved oil in Vladivostok can keep the Russian SUB threat against the Japanese alive. as much oil as you can sock away in Siberia can help keep those railed factories building units. and lastly, the West can ship in as much oil as they can build a convoy line for over each summer to the major port at Archangel.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 11/13/2010 2:20:01 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

you don't simply retreat straight back to the Urals. you carefully choose which units the Axis can attack, and where. the goal is to keep your HQ (even rail moving the slow ones) and ARM and MECH as long as you possibly can, hopefully all the way back to the valley south of the Caucasus and the Volga line in front of the Urals. At those points you have to turn and fight even with the armor. But before that you need to trade in your GARR and INF for railing out factories and impulses of Axis time (and some MIL, but over-reliance on weak MIL can make things too easy for the Germans; it is also key to scrap your 3 and 4 factor units after they are lost). keeping your ARM and MECH alive is a matter of managing your fighter cover well to help keep them from getting ground-struck, and just generally keeping them out of range of the Stukas at least. To do that you have to move them backwards, which is a retreat. two ARM/MECH units in a clear hex, outside of Stuka range, are a strong defense, especially when they can only be attacked from two hexes, and are unlikely to even be attacked while the Axis is also busy reducing your cities full of infantry. all that changes as soon as those tanks are without enough Fighter cover and within range of too many Axis bombers - watch carefully for strong Axis LND3.

trying to maintain a strong solid line in front of the Axis for too long allows them to use their air superiority and blitz bonuses (smart Panzer commanders change Shatter results to Retreat results to keep the Russian units from the safety of the production spiral) to destroy your units too fast for you to replace them. you will lose units no matter what; the key is to keep your best units until the Axis forces start to thin out as they have to divide their efforts on to the many strategic axes that are key to the long-term Russian defense - Leningrad, Archangel, the rail lines to the Urals (Saratov and Kuybyshev are key hexes now), the Turkish border and then Baku, and the Crimea.

and once the front stabilizes on those various axes, yes it is true that Russia is resource limited. key aids then are convoys in the Caspian, factories in Murmansk and Baku (for Persian Gulf / Suez resource and BP deliveries from the Western Allies), and also factories railed to Archangel to run off saved oil while the port is frozen (thanks Composer99). It also helps to store 8 oil in Leningrad to keep producing during the siege.

saved oil is a big help to the Russians in lots of places and ways. one saved in Rostov with the Koniev HQ might make the difference between a successful Axis attack and another turn of a large German force stuck on trying to clear the hex. an oil in Sevastopol will give the Axis concern about it someday fueling Russian aircraft for runs at Ploesti (an historic fear of Hitler's). a saved oil in Vladivostok can keep the Russian SUB threat against the Japanese alive. as much oil as you can sock away in Siberia can help keep those railed factories building units. and lastly, the West can ship in as much oil as they can build a convoy line for over each summer to the major port at Archangel.

Thank you.

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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/8/2011 11:49:18 AM   
peskpesk


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I have been working on USSR border claims, in which the USSR needs to decide:
(1) whether to demand the Finnish borderlands,
(2) whether to demand Bessarabia,
(3) whether to move into Poland, and
(4) whether to occupy the Baltic states of Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

I have been concentrating on the first part of CC 5 Make USSR border claims and whether to move into Eastern Poland, se below. In a normal WIF game the USSR usually claims Eastern Poland in the second or third allied impulse Sep/Oct 1939. And in many ways it seams as the base rule enough to make a solid WIF play, but it could be made stronger by applying the modifiers. There are pros and cons of doing that, could gain stronger play against the worst case, the risk of the AI making missing the chance to take Eastern Poland.
And as always any tips of what I have missed is welcome. I plan to post a simplified version of the script later.

CC 5 Make USSR border claims AI

Eastern Poland

Advantages:
- This gives the USSR an immensely increased buffer zone before a possible Barbarossa attack.
- Enables the claim of Baltic States.
- Internment of Polish Units for Commonwealth.
- Gives the USSR pressure against Rumania and the possibility to outflank Rumania during a denied claim of Bessarabia and the following war.

Disadvantages:
- US Entry hit and the chit values might be high.
- Any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland are destroyed/interned and possible leaving a whole in the Polish defense line and/or stopping Polish airplanes from internment.
- Polish Units might need supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna.
- The ability for an Eastern Poland gambit Strategy lost. When German attacks in Poland are stalled (ex bad attack dice, stormy weather, or too few units due to a France first strategy) and the border with the USSR could be beyond where German garrison is and going first in Jan/Feb 1940 enables the USSR breaking the pact and possible DOW on Germany.

The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
• The action has not been taken.
• The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered,The USSR land movement step)
• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.
• There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Eastern Poland.
• It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.

Whether to occupy Eastern Poland decision is modified by:
• Is conquest of Poland imminent?
• Is any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland vital to the Polish defense and not intended for Internment?
• Is any Polish Air Units in Eastern Poland stopped from internment/protecting the Lodz/Warsaw?
• Is the supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna needed for Polish Units?
• Are German attacks in Poland stalled?
• Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse?
• Is the claim of Bessarabia imminent?
• Is the weather bad?
• Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/16/2011 4:33:14 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/8/2011 4:19:36 PM   
Extraneous

 

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The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
(1) It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.
(2) The action has not been taken.
(3) The USSR doesn’t elect to pass. (Options for “Neutral Major powers” are “Pass” or “Combined action” right?)
(4) The USSR has one land unit that has range to enter into Eastern Poland.
(5) The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered, and it is the USSR land movement step)
(6) There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool that can be used for the entry action Eastern Poland. (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)

Whether to occupy Eastern Poland is deception is modified by:
(1) Is conquest of Poland imminent? Or are German attacks in Poland stalled? (The situation should be one or the other.)
(2) Is the weather bad? (This effects #1.)
(3) Are any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland vital to the Polish defense and not intended for Internment?
(4) Are any Polish Air Units in Eastern Poland stopped from internment/protecting the Lodz/Warsaw?
(5) Is the supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna needed for Polish Units?
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)
(7) Is the claim of Bessarabia imminent?
(8) Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high? (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)


Does this agree with your prioritization of conditions?


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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/8/2011 5:16:23 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

(6) There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool that can be used for the entry action Eastern Poland. (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)
(8) Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high? (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)


the us entry chit value are hidden. so the AI should not know the value

ONLY US know the entry level

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 1/8/2011 5:17:46 PM >


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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 352
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/8/2011 5:52:17 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

(6) There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool that can be used for the entry action Eastern Poland. (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)
(8) Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high? (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)


the us entry chit value are hidden. so the AI should not know the value

ONLY US know the entry level

The AI plays all the allied nations and therefore all the allied nations will know the US entry.

Besides, the rule just forbidds the US player to show anyone the marks. It never forbidds the US player to tell anyone.

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/8/2011 5:58:04 PM >


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Post #: 353
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/9/2011 8:42:40 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)

This is because if all Allies pass, then Russia can't occupy East Poland that impulse, and yet Warsaw and Lodz may have fallen and if the turn ends, then Poland gets conquered and the Russians lose the ability to occupy East Poland in that event - usually viewed as a significant disadvantage.

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Post #: 354
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/9/2011 9:20:18 PM   
ullern


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quote:


The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
• The action has not been taken.
• The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered,The USSR land movement step)
• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.
• There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Eastern Poland.
• It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.


Since I didn't involve myself much in this AI thing I don't understand for what purpose this script is supposed to run: If no USSR land unit has range to enter the region, then should this script tell the USSR needs to move a unit closer, or is this script just for evaluating what to do exactly right "now."
_or to take it a bit more further: Is this script used to evaluate what it will take to implement this action, or is that handled by some other planning method?

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 355
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/9/2011 9:49:14 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ullern

quote:


The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
• The action has not been taken.
• The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered,The USSR land movement step)
• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.
• There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Eastern Poland.
• It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.


Since I didn't involve myself much in this AI thing I don't understand for what purpose this script is supposed to run: If no USSR land unit has range to enter the region, then should this script tell the USSR needs to move a unit closer, or is this script just for evaluating what to do exactly right "now."
_or to take it a bit more further: Is this script used to evaluate what it will take to implement this action, or is that handled by some other planning method?


The AIO (AI Opponent) Commander in Chief (CIC) decision maker decidesa bunch of stuff:
CIC := TCommanderInChief(Self);;

case TaskIndex of
1: CIC.EvalUSEntryOptions;

2: CIC.DecDOW;

3: CIC.DecPeaceUSSRJapan;

4: CIC.DecMutualPeace;

5: CIC.DecMakeBorderClaim;

6: CIC.DecRespondBorderClaim;

7: CIC.DecBalkans;

8: CIC.DecUkraine;

9: CIC.DecAlignMinors;

10: CIC.DecMinorControl;

11: CIC.DecSpoils;

12: CIC.DecVichy;

13: CIC.DecLiberation;

14: CIC.DecSurrender;

15: CIC.DecNeutralityPacts;

16: ; // CIC.DecMinorSetup: Set up minor country units.

17: ; // CIC.DecMajorSetup: Set up units at scenario start.


#5 is for all the border claims that are possible. Most of them are by the USSR. Here are my notes on CC5:

CC 5 Make USSR border claims (1 In)
The USSR needs to decide:
(1) whether to demand the Finnish borderlands,
(2) whether to demand Bessarabia,
(3) whether to move into Poland, and
(4) whether to occupy the Baltic states of Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

Whether and when the 1st decision is made depends on the strategic plan.

The 2nd decision partly depends on what Germany does in the Balkans.


The 1 In indicates that these are easy decisions to make (1) and that the CIC initiates the decision - it does not have to be made.

The script just evaluates "what to do" this impulse so information can be provided as to what Action should be taken in the Choose Action phase. Later a Field Marshal will decide whether to make the land move or not ( in the Land Movement phase) depending on the priority for making the move to occupy Eastern Poland/the Baltic States, versus all the other uses for the land move.

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Post #: 356
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/10/2011 4:20:10 PM   
Extraneous

 

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I am not picking on you.

Your post shows you are giving hard consideration on what you would like from an AI and I would like to commend you for your efforts.



quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)


This is because if all Allies pass, then Russia can't occupy East Poland that impulse, and yet Warsaw and Lodz may have fallen and if the turn ends, then Poland gets conquered and the Russians lose the ability to occupy East Poland in that event - usually viewed as a significant disadvantage.


quote:

10. Choosing Actions
You must choose an action for each major power on your side. Each type of action will affect what that major power can do in the rest of the action stage. You can choose one action type in one impulse and a different type in the next impulse of the same turn.


quote:

10.1 Action types
If you are a neutral major power, you must choose either a pass or a combined action. The only exception is that Germany may instead choose a land action during the first impulse of Sep/Oct 1939.


Note: the rule states each major power chooses an action. Even if all the other neutral/active major power players (AI or human) choose to pass the USSR (AI or human) would still have to choose an action.



quote:

13.3.1 Entry markers
The US entry level is changed by the entry markers you draw. You will have an entry level against Japan and another against Germany and Italy. This is explained in “9.4 US entry”.

Only you will know your entry levels, although your opponents will make guesses based on the entry options you choose and may learn some information from intelligence operations (option 63: see 22.1). (Option 63 will not be used in MWiF)

You can look at your own markers after you have committed them to a particular entry pool but you can’t show them to anyone else (even on your own side).



No, it doesn’t say the US player can’t tell anyone. But if you give the AI the ability to know more than it should than if it were a human player it will affect 13.3.3 US entry actions.



quote:

For Shannon V. Okeets:

In AI/human multi-player games how will the AI handle being assigned multi-major powers as “individual major powers” or “as a single major power group”?

Will a human player have the same information as the AI in reguards to US entry markers?







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Post #: 357
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/10/2011 6:40:06 PM   
brian brian

 

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When you play 2-player WiF, the Allied player knows the values...

I really can't think of a good reason not to take Eastern Poland. Even if the US has the 5 chit, or two or three of them in MWiF....they might also draw a whole lot of 0 chits in 1940. The best thought supporting it might be if the Germans roll several low #s in land combat in Sep/Oct, but then they might also roll high on a desperation attack on Warsaw on the Nov/Dec turn and then roll a 1 to end the turn. Playing for the USSR DoW in J/F 40 is a high-risk, high-reward style that could just lead a group of human players to start over most games, and probably so in a Human/AI game too. Maybe for variety the AI could do this on a very low probability. Some Germans do get a bit greedy on the first turn, attacking Poland, Yugoslavia, Denmark and the Netherlands all at once; that might be a situation to consider in the logic.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 358
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/11/2011 1:04:17 PM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)


This is because if all Allies pass, then Russia can't occupy East Poland that impulse, and yet Warsaw and Lodz may have fallen and if the turn ends, then Poland gets conquered and the Russians lose the ability to occupy East Poland in that event - usually viewed as a significant disadvantage.


quote:

10. Choosing Actions
You must choose an action for each major power on your side. Each type of action will affect what that major power can do in the rest of the action stage. You can choose one action type in one impulse and a different type in the next impulse of the same turn.


quote:

10.1 Action types
If you are a neutral major power, you must choose either a pass or a combined action. The only exception is that Germany may instead choose a land action during the first impulse of Sep/Oct 1939.


Note: the rule states each major power chooses an action. Even if all the other neutral/active major power players (AI or human) choose to pass the USSR (AI or human) would still have to choose an action.


The point here is that whether 2-player or multi-player the Allies should try to act in concert, and if the decision is made that, overall, a Pass by all major powers is in their joint best interest, then the Russian player does not act alone in this sense. Or perhaps a Pass by all but one is a good idea and the one that does move should be the one with highest priority need - and this might be France, not Russia.

As the Allies I will always look at a Pass with all but one power early on in the game when the turn ends on a Zero, because a one in ten chance is infinitely better than a one in zero chance...

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Post #: 359
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 1/11/2011 6:34:25 PM   
composer99


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From: Ottawa, Canada
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With regards to the AI knowing chit values, I concur that since there is one AIO controlling an entire side, the USSR AIO is allowed to know US entry chit values (being equivalent to there being a single Allied human player).

If this were not the case, the AIO would not be eligible to know chit values; Extraneous' reading of the rule is correct in that light.

With regards to the considerations:
quote:


• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.


I would say the USSR must have a unit in range to occupy Eastern Poland from the start of the game (whether they intend to or not), and as precious as 5 land moves an impulse is, in 1939 it's not like the USSR has that many land units or wars going on so it damn well better reserve a land move to do the deed.

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