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RE: AI for MWiF - France

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/23/2012 9:42:47 AM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Historically, French Polynesia became Free French in 1940, together with New Caledonia. A percentage of 20% doesn't do justice to this fact... We therefore always played that all French Islands in the Pacific Ocean (independent of the map) are in the New Caledonian group...

Well of course you are free to do anything in the privacy of your games room as long as all are consenting adults and willing to break the rules.

Why is there such a difference with Papeete, when the other die rolls are following the historical perspective? I don't see this as breaking the rules. Personally I think this is something which is an oversight when writing the rules and should be corrected. It is historically a fact that among the first territories to proclaim themselves Free French is French Polynesia. I think WiF is at fault if you put French Polynesia into the last category. I think someone should discuss this in the rules committee. Read the history books and conclude the same as I've done...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 331
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/23/2012 9:18:21 PM   
paulderynck


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There are a number of other French possessions on the Americas map. What was their history? FREX Saint Pierre and Miquelon right off the coast of Canada, chose to stay loyal to Vichy. I doubt ADG was very interested in making a rule naming the fate of every single French possession. The roll by admin group and by map is a nice simple compromise. Not only that, but who says you have to totally duplicate history. Would you like to take the Axis in all the games if that were the case? What if the governor of Saint Pierre and Miquelon had been the governor of Tahiti instead?

But as I said you are free to make house rules and break the game rules as long as all players agree.

However it makes no sense to suggest AI strategies that violate the rules of the game.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 332
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/24/2012 2:59:48 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18275
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

This may be a misunderstanding based on the differences in scale beween the board game WiF and MWIF which uses the European scale everywhere. We might need Steve to confirm whether the Admin Groups follow WiF which indeed would mean only a 20% chance for Papeete to go FF. (It's on the Americas map in WiF and thus in the "others" category.)

As for the set-up, when you play WiF with the Africa map, it is considered part of Europe for set-up purposes. (It says this in the set-up rules somewhere or other.) However Madagascar appears on the original Asia map too, and because of this I think it must be regarded as on the Asia map, not the Africa map, for set-up purposes.


I think you can figure out what the following mean. The first group are the labels the program generates for the various setup locations mentioned in WIF FE Section 30. The second group are little more verbose warning messages - these correspond roughly with the first set.

// ****************************************************************************
// Descriptions for setup locations.
// ****************************************************************************
  rsAfrica = 'Africa';
  rsAnywhere = 'Anywhere';
  rsAnywhereNotEnemyZOC = 'Any controlled hex not in enemy ZOC';
  rsEurope = 'Europe, Mid-East, Africa';
  rsComChineseSetup = 'China, within 9 hexes of a Communist city.';
  rsEuropeNotRumania = 'Europe, Mid-East, Africa (NOT Rumania)';
  rsEuropeUSSR = 'Europe';
  rsEuropeAsia = 'Europe, Mid-East, Africa, W. Asia';
  rsEuropeExcept = 'Eur, Mid-East, Afr (NOT Med/Black Sea/Persian G.)';
  rsEuropeMed = 'Europe, Mid-East, Africa: within Med';
  rsEuropePacificUSA = 'USA, Europe, Mid-East, Africa, Pacific';
  rsEuropeUSAEastCoast = 'Europe, Mid-East, Afr, USA East Coast';
  rsFascistTideReinforcement = 'Suez or Cape Town';
  rsOccupiedFrance = 'Occupied France';
  rsOccFrance = 'Occ. France';
  rsPacific = 'Western Pacific';
  rsAmerica = 'America, W. Atlantic, E. Pacific';

  rsPacificAmerica = 'Pacific or America';
  rsPacificAsia = 'Asia or Western/Central Pacific';
  rsPacificUSA = 'Pacific or USA';
  rsPacificUSAChina = 'Pacific, USA, or China';
  rsPacificUSAWestCoast = 'Pacific or USA West Coast';
  rsSpecHex = 'Must set up in (%d, %d)';
  rsUSAEastCoast = 'USA East Coast';
  rsUSAWestCoast = 'USA West Coast';
  rsVichyFranceCorsica = 'Vichy France (includes Corsica)';
  rsWarlordHex = 'Within 6 hexes of (%d, %d)';

// ****************************************************************************
// Setup warning messages.
// ****************************************************************************
  rsSetupAfrica = 'You must place the units in Africa (includes Madagascar).';
  rsSetupAligned = 'You must place the units in their home country or in an ' +
                   'aligned minor country.';
  rsSetupCommunist = 'Units must set up within 9 hexes of a Communist Chinese' +
                     ' controlled city, but not in a Nationalist Chinese city.';
  rsSetupControl = 'You must control the hex or cooperate with its controller ' +
                   'to place a unit in a hex.';
  rsFactoryNeedsCity = 'You must place the factory in a city.';
  rsFactoryCityCapacity = 'The city cannot hold another factory.';
  rsOneFactoryOnly = 'You may only place one factory at a time.';
  rsSetupCountryCity = 'You must place the units in %s.';
  rsSetupEnemyUnit = 'You cannot place units on enemy units.';
  rsSetupEurope = 'You must place the units in Europe, the Mid-East, or Africa.';
  rsSetupEuropeNotRumania = 'You must place the units in Europe, Mid-East, or ' +
                            'Africa, but not Rumania.';
  rsSetupEuropeUSSR  = 'You must place the units in Europe.';
  rsSetupEuropeAsia = 'You must place the units in Europe, the Mid-East, ' +
                      'Africa, or Western Asia.';
  rsSetupEuropeMed = 'You must place the units in a Mediterranean port.';
  rsSetupEuropeNoMed = 'You must place the units in Europe, Mid-East, or ' +
                       'Africa, but NOT Med./Black Sea/Persian Gulf ports.';
  rsSetupEuropeUSAEastCoast = 'You must place the units in Europe, Mid-East, ' +
                              'Africa, or on the USA East coast.';

  rsSetupOK = 'OK to set up.';
  rsSetupPacific = 'You must place the units in the Western Pacific.';
  rsSetupAmerica = 'You must place the units in America, Western Atlantic, ' +
                   'or Eastern Pacific.';
  rsSetupPacificAmerica = 'You must place the units in the Pacific or America.';
  rsSetupPacificAsia = 'You must place the units in Asia or the ' +
                       'Western/Central Pacific.  See Setup Rules.';
  rsSetupPacificUSA = 'You must place the units in the Pacific or in the USA.';
  rsSetupPacificUSAChina = 'You must place the units in the Pacific, the ' +
                           'USA, or China.';
  rsSetupPacificUSAWestCoast = 'You must place the units in the Pacific or ' +
                               'on the USA west coast.';
  rsSetupPartisan = 'Set up in enemy-controlled home country hex: %s';
  rsSetupPorts = 'You must place the units in a port on the specified sea ' +
                 'areas (%s).';
  rsSetupSeaArea = 'You cannot place these units in a sea area.';
  rsSetupSpecificHex = 'This unit must be placed in the specific hex %s.';
  rsSetupWarlordHex = 'This unit must be placed in a hex controlled by the ' +
                      'warlord''s major power and within 6 of %s.';

  rsFranceOnly =
    'Units must be placed in a hex controlled by Free France or Vichy France.';
  rsSetupTerritorial = 'Territorial units must be set up in their home ' +
                       'country or territory.';
  rsSetupThisSeaArea = 'You cannot place these units in this sea area.';
  rsSetupUSAEastCoast = 'You must place the units on the USA east coast.';
  rsSetupUSAEuropePacific = 'You must place the units in the USA, Europe, ' +
                            'Mid-East, Africa, or the Western Pacific.';
  rsSetupUSAWestCoast = 'You must place the units on the USA west coast.';
  rsUnitToConstructionPool = '%s has been placed in the Construction Pool.';
  rsUnitToRemomvedPool =
    '%s can never arrive as a reinforcement and has been removed from the game.';


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 333
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/24/2012 5:19:09 AM   
Extraneous

 

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1) Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia (captured by Allies 1942)

2) French West Africa (Afrique Occidentale Française):
French Guinea (Guinée Française) Free French after Vichy collapse
French Sudan (Mali) Free French after Vichy collapse
Ivory Coast (Côte-d’Ivoire) Free French November 1942
Niger Colony Free French after Vichy collapse
Senegal Free French after Vichy collapse
Togo & Dahomey (today Bénin) Free French after Vichy collapse
Upper Volta (today Burkina) Free French July 1940
Mauretania Free French after Vichy collapse

3) Syria (occupied by the British July 1941)

4) French Indo-China (occupied by Japan September 1940)

5) Madagascar (occupied by the British turned over to the Free French)

6) All Asian map minors & territories
Reunion (Département et Collectivités d’Outre Mer (DOM) Réunion) (occupied by the British turned over to the Free French in Madagascar)
Comoros (Département et Collectivités d’Outre Mer (DOM) Mayotte) (occupied by the British turned over to the Free French in Madagascar)

7) French Equatorial Africa:
Cameroon Free French August 1940
Afrique Équatoriale Française (AEF)
Chad (Tchad) Free French August 1940
French Middle Congo (Moyen-Congo) Free French August 1940
Central African Republic (Oubangui-Chari) Free French August 1940
Gabon Free French November 1940

8) All Pacific map minors & territories:
New Caledonia Free French September 1940

9) All other territories & minors:
French Somaliland Free French December 1942
French Polynesia (Polynésie Française) Free French September 1940
Antilles Françaises
Département et Collectivités d’Outre Mer (DOM) Guadeloupe Free French 1943
Département et Collectivités d’Outre Mer (DOM) Martinique Free French 1943
French Guiana (Guyane) Free French 1943



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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 334
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/25/2012 1:57:15 PM   
Extraneous

 

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UPDATED VERSION 1.3 FOR THE FREE FRENCH

Scrap the 1914 TRS it's worthless this gives your average TRS a minimum of move 3 range 3 (you still can't get a TRS out of the Mediterranean if it's loaded).

If the Italian player has an INF guarding their fleet:
You can set up French ships 2 minor ports in French Morocco (French West Africa admin group): Mogador (French Morocco) and Casablanca (French Morocco) .

While there are 3 minor ports in the French Equatorial Africa administration group: Pt Norie (Middle Congo) , Dualas (Cameroons) , and Libreville (Gabon) .
So you can only have 12 ships in port in the French Equatorial Africa administration group.

Set up
1) Convoy line (2 CP) from the major port of Dakar, Senegal (French West Africa admin group) > 1 CP Cape Verde Basin > 1 CP Cape St. Vincent > to Cádiz, Spain
2) Convoy line (1 CP) from the minor port of Pt Norie, Middle Congo (French Equatorial Africa administration group) > 1 CP Gulf of Guinea to supply French Equatorial Africa administration group.
3) Convoy line (1 CP) from Marseilles or Toulon, France > 1 CP Western Mediterranean Sea to supply French North Africa.
4) Convoy reserve: 3 CP (counts as 2 ships) in the minor port of Pt Norie (Middle Congo) (French Equatorial Africa administration group).
5) Convoy reserve: 3 CP (counts as 2 ships) in the minor port of Noumea (New Caledonia) (All Pacific map minors & territories admin group).
5) TRS, CA Foch and (move 5 range 3), and HQ-I Georges in the minor port of Mogador (French Morocco) (French West Africa admin group).
6) CA Colbert, CL Gloire, CL Marseillaise, and CL Jean de Vienne (move 5 range 3) in the minor port of Casablanca (French Morocco) (French West Africa admin group).
7) CL Montcalm and CL La Galisonnière (move 5 range 3) break down the INF into divisions in the major port of Beirut, (Syria) (Syria admin group).
8) CA Algérie (move 5 range 4) and CA Dupleix start in the major port of Marseilles or Toulon, France.

First Impulse France chooses a Naval action.
1) TRS, CA Foch, and HQ-I Georges sail from the minor port of Mogador, French Morocco:
> Cape St. Vincent > Cape Verde Basin > Gulf of Guinea > to the minor port of Libreville (Gabon) (French Equatorial Africa administration group).

2) CA Colbert, CL Gloire, CL Marseillaise, and CL Jean de Vienne sail from the minor port of Casablanca, French Morocco:
> Cape St. Vincent > Cape Verde Basin > Gulf of Guinea > to the minor port of Dualas (Cameroons) (French Equatorial Africa administration group).

3) CL Montcalm, CL La Galisonnière (move 5 range 3) and 2x INF sail from the major port of Beirut, Syria:
> Eastern Mediterranean Sea > Western Mediterranean Sea > to the major port of Marseilles or Toulon, France.

Second Impulse
1) CA Algérie (move 5 range 4) and 1x INF sail the major port of Marseilles or Toulon, France:
> Western Mediterranean Sea > Cape St. Vincent > Cape Verde Basin > Gulf of Guinea > to the minor port of Libreville (Gabon) (French Equatorial Africa administration group).

2) CA Dupleix (move 5 range 3) and 1x INF sail the major port of Marseilles or Toulon, France:
> Western Mediterranean Sea > Cape St. Vincent > Cape Verde Basin > to the minor port of Dakar, Senegal (French West Africa admin group).

13.5 Final reorganization step
TRS .1, CA .4, and CL .5 OIL = 1 OIL


Second turn
First Impulse

1) CA Dupleix (move 5 range 3) and 1x INF sail the minor port of Dakar, Senegal (French West Africa admin group):
> Cape Verde Basin > Gulf of Guinea > to the minor port of Libreville (Gabon) (French Equatorial Africa administration group).


Notes:
French Equatorial Africa administration group
1) Convoy line (1 CP) 1 CP is in the Gulf of Guinea to supply the French Equatorial Africa administration group.
2) Convoy reserve: 3 CP (counts as 2 ships) are in the minor port of Pt Norie (Middle Congo) .
3) CA Colbert, CL Gloire, CL Marseillaise, and CL Jean de Vienne are in the minor port of Dualas (Cameroons) .
4) TRS, CA Algérie, CA Dupleix, and CA Foch, HQ-I Georges and 2x divisions are in the minor port of Libreville (Gabon) .

1x TRS, 4x CA, 3x CL, and 4x CP (counts as 2 ships).

Total Ships: 10


If the fall of France is imminent you can take the CP's from Cape Verde Basin and Cape St. Vincent and place them in Pt Norie (Middle Congo) (French Equatorial Africa administration group).

This will count as 1 ship toward port capacity and save you the trouble of having to build 2x CP.

This would bring the total number of ships in French Equatorial Africa administration group up to 11.

The only other ship I would like to get to the Free French would be the 1934 SUB (Minerve class submarines) but there is only a 25% chance getting it in set up and only 33% chance of constructing it.


I thought about flying French aircraft out to the French Equatorial Africa administration group but rejected the idea.

It is an option but would be a bad idea if the French Equatorial Africa administration group went Vichy.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 335
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/25/2012 6:37:10 PM   
paulderynck


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Joined: 3/24/2007
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About scrapping the TRS - I recommend not to. France starts with 5 and one of these must be on the board. You won't be building any because the priority will be land and air units to keep France alive as long as possible. If Vichy is declared in 1940 you'll therefore have 6 in your Force Pool by then. This gives FF the ability to build 3 TRS and it is invaluable late in the game to have a FF with the maximum sea lift because then the US and CW need to take less naval moves. If you have 5 in the Force Pool, you'll only get two of them for FF.

There's only a 20% chance of getting the 2 range guy and if you follow a more conservative strategy of using the TRS to bring back a couple units to France from Syria/North Africa in 1939, that unit can do it anyway. If it's in the Force Pool, and France is around in JF41, then you can scrap it.

So if Vichy happens in 1940 and you can get the onboard TRS to French Equatorial Africa, then you could end up with a FF that has 6 TRS and 5 Amph in JF44 ! Even a 2-range TRS can be very useful for the Wallies late in the game. Besides lift it can re-org a good TRS or Amph in one of FF's many Naval actions.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 336
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/27/2012 1:22:16 AM   
Extraneous

 

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Assuming you get average die rolls on the Free French cart.

The chance you will have a Free French TERR:
In the French West Africa Administration Group 25%.
In the French Equatorial Africa Administration Group 25%.
In the All Pacific map minors & territories Administration Group 33%.

That's 50% on the Europe and Africa maps and 33% on the Asia/Pacific maps.

The chance you will have a Vichy French TERR:
In the French North Africa Administration Group 25%.
In the Syria Administration Group 100% and 12.5% for a second.
In the French Indo-China Administration Group 33%.
In the Madagascar Administration Group 33%.

That's 37.5% on the Europe and Africa maps, 12.5% in Syria, and 66% on the Asia/Pacific maps.




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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 337
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/27/2012 5:30:55 AM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
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And anywhere there is one, they disappear when Vichy is declared (and must be built again by Vichy) unless a real French unit is also there, so it really doesn't matter too much what the odds are of where they start. Some of the near ones even end up in France before it falls.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 338
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/27/2012 11:52:17 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

About scrapping the TRS - I recommend not to. France starts with 5 and one of these must be on the board. You won't be building any because the priority will be land and air units to keep France alive as long as possible. If Vichy is declared in 1940 you'll therefore have 6 in your Force Pool by then. This gives FF the ability to build 3 TRS and it is invaluable late in the game to have a FF with the maximum sea lift because then the US and CW need to take less naval moves. If you have 5 in the Force Pool, you'll only get two of them for FF.

There's only a 20% chance of getting the 2 range guy and if you follow a more conservative strategy of using the TRS to bring back a couple units to France from Syria/North Africa in 1939, that unit can do it anyway. If it's in the Force Pool, and France is around in JF41, then you can scrap it.

So if Vichy happens in 1940 and you can get the onboard TRS to French Equatorial Africa, then you could end up with a FF that has 6 TRS and 5 Amph in JF44 ! Even a 2-range TRS can be very useful for the Wallies late in the game. Besides lift it can re-org a good TRS or Amph in one of FF's many Naval actions.


Very well reasoned.



quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

And anywhere there is one, they disappear when Vichy is declared (and must be built again by Vichy) unless a real French unit is also there, so it really doesn't matter too much what the odds are of where they start. Some of the near ones even end up in France before it falls.


quote:


17.3 Units
FRENCH UNITS
The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government now moves every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack. If naval units cannot return to a port within range, they are destroyed.

Next, the same player moves every French controlled land or aircraft unit in a hex controlled by an Axis major power to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free-France. Rebase every French controlled naval unit in such a hex to the nearest port within DOUBLE their range controlled by Vichy France or Free France. They are destroyed if this is not possible.

The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their range, and French controlled land and air units are moved to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex. Alternatively, an Allied major power can destroy every French controlled unit in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is HOSTILE to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), you can only move an aircraft for each French pilot on the production circle or the pilot track (Vichy player’s choice). Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle and reserve pool, or unused pilots on the circle or track, are lost.

Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot is lost with each removed aircraft.

All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now controlled by Vichy.

All other French controlled units are Free French. French controlled NAVAL units on the production circle, in the repair pool or in the construction pool remain there as Vichy French units. They may be built using whatever production Vichy France retains.

quote:

Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA option 10 (22.4.5 Territorials (AfA option 10)): All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).


If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the French force pools, move it to the French force pools.



Are you talking about the French force pools?



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 12/27/2012 12:03:11 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 339
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/28/2012 12:04:56 AM   
paulderynck


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Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot is lost with each removed aircraft.

Are you talking about the French force pools?


What I mean is any Admin group/named country where there is one Territorial by itself when Vichy is declared, it will disappear as per the above bolded portion of the quote.
Vichy only has Territorials in its Force Pool from the Vichy minor countries and most likely will have to rebuild any that it wants to put on the board. Thus it matters little for Vichy where the Territorials go on set-up along with the odds for wherever.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 340
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/28/2012 3:43:16 AM   
Extraneous

 

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Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:


I do respect your opinion but I know we will not agree on this.

I would suggest we request a rule clarification.



The basic formulas are:

RM = (‘Res’ + ‘Mil’) all go into the Vichy force pool.

LA = (Land units + Aircraft units)

Vichy Force pool = RM + (LA / 2)


quote:


Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot is lost with each removed aircraft.


If the sentence read: "Metropolitan Vichy France and THEN each administration group controlled by Vichy France" I would agree with you completely.


But as it is this can be read 2 ways,

1) Use the LA formula for Metropolitan Vichy France and then for each individual administration group controlled by Vichy France and sum the totals.

2) Subtotal Metropolitan Vichy France and all administration groups controlled by Vichy France and divide by 2.


The problem is with how to read: "Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France".


quote:

You see it as instructions to perform LA formula on Metropolitan Vichy France and then for each individual administration group controlled by Vichy France.


quote:

When I was a "code jockey" this is how I would have coded the instructions.

The instructions would have to been understood to subtotal Metropolitan Vichy France and all administration groups controlled by Vichy France.

This is a simplified explanation where LAM represents Metropolitan Vichy France while LA1 ~ LA9 represent the administration groups. And assumes that all administration groups are controlled by Vichy France.

LAM = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA1 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA2 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA3 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA4 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA5 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA6 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA7 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA8 = (Land units + Aircraft units)
LA9 = (Land units + Aircraft units)

LA = LAM + LA1 + LA2 + LA3 + LA4 + LA5 + LA6 + LA7 + LA8 + LA9

Vichy Force pool = RM + (LA / 2)


For me formula LA becomes a subtotal of Land units and Aircraft units in "Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France".


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 12/28/2012 3:53:42 AM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 341
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/28/2012 5:35:14 AM   
paulderynck


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No it is Free France that gets all the units in its Force Pool ("RM" plus others, after halving) except the Territorials which both FF and Vichy get according to the control rolls. Vichy gets half the remaining on-map units. (= .5 * ("LA"-"RM") ) Vichy never has anything but Territorials in its Force Pool. Any on-map units Vichy loses go into the Free French Force Pool.

I grant that it can be read two ways, but taking the areas individually is logical because "(taken together)" appears after land and air units but not a second time after "Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group".

But anyway I will check into it on the Rules discussion list.

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Post #: 342
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/28/2012 2:15:02 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Would you agree to this outline?

quote:

17.3 Units (Edited)
RELOCATE FRENCH ON MAP UNITS
The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government now moves every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack. If naval units cannot return to a port within range, they are destroyed.

Next, the same player moves every French controlled land or aircraft unit in a hex controlled by an Axis major power to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free-France. Rebase every French controlled naval unit in such a hex to the nearest port within DOUBLE their range controlled by Vichy France or Free France. They are destroyed if this is not possible.

The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their range, and French controlled land and air units are moved to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex. Alternatively, an Allied major power can destroy every French controlled unit in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is HOSTILE to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), you can only move an aircraft for each French pilot on the production circle or the pilot track (Vichy player’s choice). Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle and reserve pool, or unused pilots on the circle or track, are lost


WHO RETAINS FRENCH ON MAP UNITS
Now, place in the force pools all French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units and half their other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot is lost with each removed aircraft.

All on map French controlled units that are in Vichy Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy France controlled administration groups are now controlled by Vichy France those in Free French controlled administration groups are now controlled by Free France.

quote:

Vichy French on map units are units in Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy France controlled administration groups.

Free French on map units are units in Free France controlled administration groups.



French controlled NAVAL units on the production circle, in the repair pool or in the construction pool remain there as Vichy French units. They may be built using whatever production Vichy France retains.


RELOAD THE FRENCH FORCE POOLS
Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA option 10 (22.4.5 Territorials (AfA option 10)): All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

quote:

Vichy French force pool = TER from Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy administration groups.



All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).



Note:
You put the ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units into the Free French force pool.

Then you put half the other land and aircraft units (taken together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each administration group controlled by Vichy France (your way or my way) into the Free French force pool.

Then you randomly remove half the units now in the Vichy French force pool and Free French force pool.

quote:

Vichy French force pool = (TER from Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy administration groups) / 2.

Free French force pool = (all units in the Free French force pool) / 2.





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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 343
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/29/2012 12:40:57 AM   
paulderynck


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Agree except at the end there, you don't remove half the units in the Vichy French force pool because they will all be Territorials which are exempt from that.

I checked on the rules forum and the next version of the rules has already been amended so that the halving of the units in the Vichy controlled areas is in toto (i.e. you were right about that and the designer said it was unclear in RAW7 but has now been fixed). Next thing to check would be MWiF RAC and if it is similarly unclear then we would need to find out how it is implemented in MWiF, since the AI is for MWiF, not WiFFE.


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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/29/2012 8:49:09 AM   
Extraneous

 

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Thanks for your help proofreading my stuff

quote:

RELOAD THE FRENCH FORCE POOLS
Randomly remove half the units now in the Free French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.



In your view, when you randomly remove half the Free French force pool do the TER count toward the total number of units in the Free French force pool or not?

FP ~ total number of units in the Free French force pool
TU ~ total number of TER in the Free French force pool

Example:

Number of units to be removed = FP / 2

Or

Number of units to be removed = (FP - TU) / 2


quote:


I wish they had written the rules stating which force pools it would have made this easier.

I'll edit my version of 17.3 once we get the kinks out of it.




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 12/29/2012 8:57:54 AM >


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Post #: 345
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 3:58:05 AM   
paulderynck


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In my view it does not matter because whoever controls the country gets the Territorial(s) for it. Why bother removing them if you are going to put them right back again? As for putting it in a formula, the number removed could easily exceed (FP - TU) / 2 because you remove half by type, which means all odd numbers of types lose half round up.


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Post #: 346
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 2:27:32 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In my view it does not matter because whoever controls the country gets the Territorial(s) for it. Why bother removing them if you are going to put them right back again? As for putting it in a formula, the number removed could easily exceed (FP - TU) / 2 because you remove half by type, which means all odd numbers of types lose half round up.



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA Option 10: All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).



quote:

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

You now remove from the game all conquered minor country units in the force pools. Half of these units may be returned to the force pools upon liberation (see 13.7.5). If Vichy France currently exists, randomly remove from the game half the units in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units).




The RAW, WiF scenarios, and WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_July_2009.pdf (the ADG FAQ) doesn't mention removing units by type.

I can understand if this is a convention you have become comfortable with but the rules don't support it.


Considering the total number of units in the French force pool (using VASSAL) random removal could cause some years where there would be no units to be built at all.

But other years could see a surge of Free French support (I.E. More units available to be built in the French force pool).



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Post #: 347
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 4:08:33 PM   
composer99


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Extraneous:

Units are sorted by type into individual force pools (see RAW 24.1.5 in the scenario booklet):
quote:

Sort your units into force pools. Each major power needs a separate force pool for each unit type. So, you need one each for CAV, INF, MIL, GAR, MOT, MTN, MAR, PARA, MECH, ARM, HQ-A, HQ-I, SUB, CL, CA, BB, CV, TRS, AMPH, Convoy points, FTR, LND, NAV and ATR. You only have 1 force pools for each type regardless of how many countries contribute units to your force pools.

Some of these unit types come with different costs. For example, some LND will cost you 4, some will cost you 5 and some will cost 6 build points. Separate each unit type into a sub-force pool for each cost (first cycle cost only in the case of naval units). [Emphasis mine]


As such, removing units from each French force pool is equivalent to removing units of each type.

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Post #: 348
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 5:08:18 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In my view it does not matter because whoever controls the country gets the Territorial(s) for it. Why bother removing them if you are going to put them right back again? As for putting it in a formula, the number removed could easily exceed (FP - TU) / 2 because you remove half by type, which means all odd numbers of types lose half round up.



quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game.

AfA Option 10: All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

All units left in the force pools, or that enter them from now on (AfA Option 10: except teritorial units), are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).



quote:

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

You now remove from the game all conquered minor country units in the force pools. Half of these units may be returned to the force pools upon liberation (see 13.7.5). If Vichy France currently exists, randomly remove from the game half the units in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units).




The RAW, WiF scenarios, and WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_July_2009.pdf (the ADG FAQ) doesn't mention removing units by type.

I can understand if this is a convention you have become comfortable with but the rules don't support it.


Considering the total number of units in the French force pool (using VASSAL) random removal could cause some years where there would be no units to be built at all.

But other years could see a surge of Free French support (I.E. More units available to be built in the French force pool)
.




what ???? you only remove from the current force pool ...all future units are added normally ...

its not half of all French units ..its half the units in the force pool at the moment of vichy ..

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Post #: 349
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 7:08:39 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The RAW, WiF scenarios, and WiFFE_FAQ_v1.3_7_July_2009.pdf (the ADG FAQ) doesn't mention removing units by type.



This is the glaring error in your analysis. Vichy has no Force Pool until after this point and it only has Territorials in it. Here is the relevant quote from RAW which was never questioned and therefore never a candidate for the FAQ:

"Randomly remove half the units now in each French force pool (AfA Option 10: except territorial units) from the game."

The key here is that "each French force pool" means (like Composer says) each of the types that are sorted as per: "Each major power needs a separate force pool for each unit type." It does not mean each of Vichy vs. FF.

Re-read 17.3 Units under French Units again and you will see that you never put units into a Vichy force pool during the "Units" process, only into the French force pool.

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Post #: 350
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 9:12:17 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Agreed (I didn't think I would have to read the RAW7scemario.pdf for a rule clarification on force pools).

Rhetorical question: why didn't they say, " the French force pools" instead of "each French force pool"?


quote:

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

In all scenarios where Free French units are set up (i.e. after 1939), randomly remove half the units in each Free French force pool (AfA option 10: except territorial units) from the game after set up.

(This is the part of rules that absolutely supports your statement.)




Note: It is not the current Free French force pools it is all Free French force pools.



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 12/30/2012 9:28:09 PM >


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Post #: 351
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/30/2012 11:10:08 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

Note: It is not the current Free French force pools it is all Free French force pools.


just but future units are not part of any force pools.... they are added to the force pools later

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Post #: 352
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 12/31/2012 1:58:38 AM   
Extraneous

 

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There are 7 scenarios affected by the division of the Free French force pool.

24.4.1 Missed the Bus ~ The end of the beginning: Jul/Aug 1940 - Jul/Aug 1945
2 TRS are lost but 2 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
3 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.3 Waking giant ~ The USA enters the war: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
3 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.4 Brute force ~ The Allies hit back: May/Jun 1942~Jul/Aug 1945
3 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Vichy French.

24.4.5 Darkness before the dawn ~ The beginning of the end: Jul/Aug 1943 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
4 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is in the Free French construction pool.

24.4.6 Decline and fall ~ The Allied ascendancy: May/Jun 1944 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
4 TRS are lost but 3 will still be available to be built. 1 TRS is Free French.

24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
2 TRS are lost but 1 will still be available to be built if none are built. 1 TRS is on map.

When we divide the Free French force pool which scenario should we use?


quote:

ORIGINAL: RAW7scemario.pdf

In all scenarios where Free French units are set up (i.e. after 1939), randomly remove half the units in each Free French force pool (AfA option 10: except territorial units) from the game after set up.





< Message edited by Extraneous -- 12/31/2012 2:07:04 AM >


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Post #: 353
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 1/1/2013 2:57:14 PM   
Extraneous

 

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I guess that the division of the Free French force pools is a situation of missed opportunities.

The longer the scenario the more opportunities and the larger the French force pools. Conversely the shorter the scenario the more missed opportunities and the smaller the French force pools.


Now would you agree to this outline?

quote:

17.3 Units (Edited)
17.3.1 Relocate the French on map units
The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government performs the following actions in the following order to relocate French on map units.

UNITS AT SEA
Move every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack.

FRENCH CONTROLLED UNITS IN A HEX CONTROLLED BY AN AXIS MAJOR POWER
Move every French controlled land and aircraft to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free France.
Rebase every French controlled Naval unit to the nearest Vichy France or Free-France controlled port within DOUBLE their range.

FRENCH CONTROLLED UNITS IN A HEX CONTROLLED BY AN ALLIED MAJOR POWER
Move every French controlled land and aircraft to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free France.
Rebase every French controlled Naval unit to the nearest Vichy France or Free-France controlled port within DOUBLE their range.

Alternatively, an Allied major power can choose to destroy all French controlled units in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is HOSTILE to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

Any French controlled naval unit unable to return to a port controlled by Vichy France or Free France is destroyed.


17.3.2 Determine who controls which French units
Vichy France retains control of All French NAVAL units that are in:
The production circle where when they finish their cycle if FACE-UP they become Vichy reinforcements or if FACE-DOWN they become available for Vichy to finish building.
The repair pool and are available for Vichy to repair.
The construction pool and are available for Vichy to build.

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), you can only move an aircraft for each French pilot on the production circle or the pilot track (Vichy player’s choice). Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle or in the reserve pool is returned to the French force pools. All unused pilots on the production circle or pilot track are lost.

Return to the French force pools all on map French controlled ‘Res’ and ‘Mil’ units.

Take half the total on map French land and aircraft units (totaled together) from Metropolitan Vichy France and each Vichy French administration group and return them to the French force pools. The player running Vichy France can choose which to remove. If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot with each removed aircraft is lost.

All on map French controlled units that are now in:
Metropolitan Vichy France and Vichy France controlled administration groups are now controlled by Vichy France.
Free French controlled administration groups are now controlled by Free France.


17.3.3 Reload the French force pools
If you are playing with 22.4.5 Territorials (AfA option 10): All Territorials belonging to a minor country or territory controlled by Vichy France are removed from the French force pools and placed in a separate Vichy force pool.

Randomly remove half the units in the French force pools (but not the Vichy force pool) from the game. All units that are left in or that enter the French force pools from now on are Free French units (so every Vichy loss will become a Free French gain).


If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the in the French force pools, place it in the French HQ force pool.





< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/1/2013 9:19:39 PM >


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Post #: 354
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 1/1/2013 8:37:53 PM   
paulderynck


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Only one minor quibble- for the two occurrences of "14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28)" its better to say the pilot is lost. Pilots are not in force pools.

Also the last line: "If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the in the French force pools, place it in the French HQ force pool." has an extra "the" in it.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/1/2013 8:38:53 PM >


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Post #: 355
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 1/1/2013 9:23:18 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Only one minor quibble- for the two occurrences of "14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28)" its better to say the pilot is lost. Pilots are not in force pools.

Also the last line: "If the French HQ ‘De Gaulle’ is neither in a hex controlled by Free France nor the in the French force pools, place it in the French HQ force pool." has an extra "the" in it.


All help is appreciated.

(Made 2 changes about pilots being lost)

Any un-piloted aircraft on the production circle or in the reserve pool is returned to the French force pools. All unused pilots on the production circle or pilot track are lost.

If you are playing with 14.6 Pilots (PiF option 28), the pilot with each removed aircraft is lost.

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Post #: 356
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 1/5/2013 3:21:21 PM   
Extraneous

 

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The reason I suggested the "UPDATED VERSION 1.3 FOR THE FREE FRENCH" scenario was three fold.

1) Have enough Free French CP's to form Convoy lines to the USA to allow them to build up and reduce the stress on the CW ground and air units.

2) Have enough Free French CP's to form Convoy lines to the CW to allow them some resources from the Free French that would not hamper or overstress the existing CW Convoy lines.

3) Give the Free French player some units so as to continue to be a threat.



The side trips I didn't expect but were very informative.

1) There is no such thing as a "French force pool". There are "French force pools" (plural) not "French force pool" (singular).

2) The in depth study of the creation of Vichy and Free France.

3) Italian shipping on the Europe map sets up only in the Mediterranean (from the FAQ).

4) A history lesson on the Afrique Occidentale Française, Afrique Équatoriale Française (AEF), and Département et Collectivités d’Outre Mer (DOM).



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 1/5/2013 3:30:26 PM >


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Post #: 357
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 1/5/2013 4:43:05 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
2) The in depth study of the creation of Vichy and Free France.


I must have read those rules 50 times before I thought I understood them and continue to read them for something or other in every game I play.

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RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/16/2013 11:34:45 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
In the Med I have one French and one or more CW CP in the east and west Med. If Italy DoWs they have to DoW both CW and France or DoW one and S&S the other, which is fine for US entry. (No extra cost to DoW both at once but accommodates strategies where they only DoW one.) Also you can burn the oil you start with that's in France and save the new one from Iraq in Syria. For re-org next turn, you don't need to trace through the Med, you can trace around Africa. Ideally, you avoid spending more than two-fifths of an oil for France for re-org on turn 1. Sometimes I have the extra Med CW CPs start in ports outside the Med and "await developments". They can move into place later in the turn with a Combined action.

I usually put most of the French CPs in the Pacific as they have the highest chance to go FF there. I believe the number one thing FF needs force-wise is a navy.


quote:

35. An Axis major power (other than Japan) executes a search and seizure (There is a 20% chance a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool) (see 13.6.1 Resources).


If I were Italy I would take the 20% chance (often).


Free-French Chart* (Administration group: Die (% chance to become Free French))

You put most of the French CP in New Caledonia?

This could work if your CW convoy line from Australia to Canada goes through the Coral Sea.





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Post #: 359
RE: AI for MWiF - France - 7/17/2013 6:02:42 AM   
paulderynck


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20% does not equal impossible. AAMOF if you do it both turns in 1939 the chance for the USA to get one extra chit is 36%. The 1939 chit pool is much better to draw from for the USA than the 39-40 pool. You might be happy with Italy but your axis partners will be less than impressed.

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