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Attack on the USSR

 
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Attack on the USSR - 11/4/2005 11:07:28 PM   
grunt6971


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I am curious, has anyone, at the start of the game as IJA/IJN, commenced an attack on the USSR? I have been toying with the idea for some time with the thought of gain points early to get an automatic victory.

Military resources for the IJA seem rather small in the Manchuria area for such an undertaking and given Japan's overall force commitment at the opening of the game, an three-pronged attack [US, Great Britian, et al., and the USSR] may be too much for Japan to sustain for any period of time.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone that has tried it and the outcome. My suspicion is that you could cause some difficulty for a time in that area of the world, but that sooner-than-later you'd be in trouble with the Russkie. On the other hand, if the IJA could hold key rail junctions - Vladivostock [sp], and points North, would be very difficult to the USSR to retake by the end of the war. Would this also lead to a more difficult time of the Russkie getting into Manchuria?

Anyway, my head hurts - I'll let the strategic gurus educate me here.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/4/2005 11:17:04 PM   
Feinder


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Can't say I've ever done it, or had it happen to me.

But what you'd be able to capitalize on, is that fact that the Soviets just sit there until you attack. Most of their forces are concentrated on the coast. You "block" them there, concentrate elsewhere, and sweep thru before they could even start moving (which is exactly why this is poo-poo'd in PBEM).

-F-

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/5/2005 12:57:32 AM   
moses

 

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Read AAR threads named "Invasion Russia". I believe I did 3. Invasion I and II were head to head solitare and III was vs. Admiral Laurent.

You have to go back about a year to find these threads.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/5/2005 1:59:26 AM   
mantill


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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

Read AAR threads named "Invasion Russia". I believe I did 3. Invasion I and II were head to head solitare and III was vs. Admiral Laurent.

You have to go back about a year to find these threads.


Moses I was reading some of these earlier. What were your final conclusions?


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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/5/2005 4:36:53 AM   
moses

 

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Japan wins quickly if they bring in 10 outside divisions and 2 squadrens of zero's. The battle should start around the end of dec and should be essentially over before Feb. Some mopping up will still be required after that but the troops can start being redeployed back to China and SRA.

I would not want to reduce the amount of force I recommend. Maybe you can skimp by with one or two less divisions but then you risk lengthening the battle. Trying to attack with only the initial starting force is hopless and will result in a crushing Russian victory. Even with 5 divisions added to the Japanese I still like the Russian. You have to crush the Russians quickly as once they get redeployed they are very strong.

So the question of can the Russians be defeated is settled. What is uncertain is if the overall strategy is good. i.e. Is the rapid defeat of Russia worth the diversion of 10 divisions fo about 3 months. (one month transit to and from Russia and one month for the campaign)

I should note that my purpose in testing this strategy was to demonstrate flaws in the ground combat system that I thought should be addressed. While some limited changes were made basically the flaws remain. Russia can be conquered in an almost bloodless fashion and with a rapidity that was historically unimaginable.


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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/5/2005 12:33:17 PM   
Knavey

 

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And because of such results Russia should basically just be relegated to the sidelines.

IF the Japanese player has ANY intentions of attacking Russia in a PBEM game, at the MINIMUM he should activate Russia for the Allied player at the beginning of the war. This allows the allied player to redeploy forces and respond to Japanese buildups in the areas.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/5/2005 2:15:31 PM   
jeffs


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And what would make an attack in Dec 1941 very dodgy is

A. The war for Japan was a decision between attacking either the US or USSR/they would have not done either.
B. Through their spy Sorge, the Russians had good knowledge that Japan would not attack..

This seems begging for a house rule in PBEM not allowing an attack for 2-3 months...

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/5/2005 5:24:09 PM   
moses

 

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Forgive me but i just can't help myself.

But maybe just fix the problem?? In one of many ways.

1.) Russia automatically activates whenever Japanese AV reaches say 10,000. Or make it 15,000 but in the calculation count any unit from an outside HQ at 5 times its AV. Now Japan will never get close to the threshold unless he brings in a couple southern area divisions. Details have to be worked out with the Chinese units that start in the area but the idea would work.

2.) Eliminate the rail hexes near the border. Sure there may have been rail there but it wouln't have been there after a corp/army sized battle sweeps over the area. The idea of large opposing infantry armies sweeping across a frozen Siberian landscape at 30 or 40 miles per day is just dumb.

3.) Allow Russian units in border forts near the coast a road which allows them to redeploy if Japan attacks. A big problem for Russia is that a good portion of its force is moving at 2 miles per hour trying to get to anyplace useful.

Easy fixes. 2 and 3 reqire nothing more then map changes.

But I realize that players who invade russia are bad. The game was not designed for large land combat. So players who fight there are exploiting the system. When about a third of the map was devoted to large land masses it was never foreseen that players might actually try to attack in these areas.

Who would think that Japan would try attacks!!?? in China? Oh wait they did. Invading Russia is crazy!!?? Oh wait, Japan did consider such attacks but opted to go the other way. Invade India or Austrailia??!! crazy again. Except the allies sure did seem worried about the possibility.

Bad player bad!!!----Sorry need my PBEM turm -- get on it JohnIII.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/9/2005 10:56:38 PM   
hawker


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Any army in history that attacks Russia is toasted.
Hitler,Napoleon... all of them lost in this great land and eventually lost their power elsewhere.
Japan cant invade Russia,russian soldiers are better equiped,has better tanks and overall the better army.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/9/2005 11:54:37 PM   
Sneer


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Poland occupied Kremlin for 2 years ... in 17th century
and I'm proud of it as wargamer - napoleon did not manage

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 12:19:16 AM   
arras

 

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In 17 th century? ...I tought Poland had full hands with Bogdan Chmelnicky and his cossacks at Ukraina and Sweds of Gustav Adolfus which conquered whole country. Not counting its own nobles fighting each other and king. Certainly 17th century wasnt Poland happiest...

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 10:41:23 AM   
Sneer


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wasn't
but I mean 1st half of 17th century
Poland was weakened by constant war on each border and that's was main reason of problem in second half of 17th century
Poland posesed Kremlin for 2 years and by the end Russian starved sieged troops

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 4:59:30 PM   
arras

 

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which year?
And it wasnt Gustav Adolfus ...it was Carl X Gustav of course. Just a small correction ;)

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 6:18:06 PM   
Sneer


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I have books out now but will check and post it soon

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 6:29:21 PM   
Sneer


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Poland supported 2 "probably " false czar candidates (Dymitris) in 1604 and 1607 both organized by nobility.
They failed.Later in 1609 Zygmunt III Waza started operations against Moscow. coalition of Russia and Sweden beaten in 1610 at Kłuszyn. Smoleńsk and Moscow taken in 1611. heir of polish crown Wladislaw given title by russion nobility. later next uprising finished by almost 2 year siege of Kremlin. it is said at the end defenders ate human flesh. Unsupported garrison fell in 1613
that's all in short. If there is sb from russia here there should be better data available. go to internet - there should be sth

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 6:39:55 PM   
Feinder


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One of my favorite drums to beat - "Japan vs. USSR".

The Soviets utterly stomped Japan's ass at Kalkun Gol (sp?) in 1940. After being humiliated, Japan never so much as blinked at Russia the wrong way. It was JAPAN that approached the USSR with a non-Aggression pact, not the other way around.

The Soviet Army in WitP is GROSSLY underrepresented. Both in strenght and quality. And from my few tests in armor vs. armor (I took 100 IJA light tanks and pitted them against 100 T-34s), the ground model is woefully lacking the. The light tanks destroyed something like 15 T-34s, and only 2 or 3 of the light tanks being damaged.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 11/10/2005 6:42:23 PM >


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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 6:41:17 PM   
Milman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

Poland occupied Kremlin for 2 years ... in 17th century
and I'm proud of it as wargamer - napoleon did not manage


Actualy he did that also . Napoleon occupied Kremlin but lost war afther that .

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 9:59:59 PM   
hawker


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quote:

The Soviet Army in WitP is GROSSLY underrepresented. Both in strenght and quality. And from my few tests in armor vs. armor (I took 100 IJA light tanks and pitted them against 100 T-34s), the ground model is woefully lacking the. The light tanks destroyed something like 15 T-34s, and only 2 or 3 of the light tanks being damaged.


Any Japanese tank facing T-34 will be obliterated.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 10:10:21 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milman

Actualy he did that also . Napoleon occupied Kremlin but lost war afther that .


Yeah well, the Russians were uncouth enough to set fire to their own city...

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 10:21:27 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milman

Actualy he did that also . Napoleon occupied Kremlin but lost war afther that .


Yeah well, the Russians were uncouth enough to set fire to their own city...


Seems to be a theme with someone who loses a city... (i.e. CSA with Richmond, and maybe Columbia SC (claims vary on the last).)

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/10/2005 11:18:14 PM   
Skyros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Seems to be a theme with someone who loses a city... (i.e. CSA with Richmond, and maybe Columbia SC (claims vary on the last).)



I would be careful saying that in Columbia SC. They are still fighting that war.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/17/2005 12:37:04 AM   
grunt6971


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I have been reading, with more than a passing interest, the posts on a Japanese attack on the USSR. I did take deep interest in Feinder's take on the armor issue. While I agree that historically the Japanese did take a terrible beating at the hands of the Russians [Zuhkov], but WiTP is not necessarily a truly historical game - things can go very differently.

The bulk of Russian forces are concentrated in the East along the coastal area of that command area, while there is a limited combat presence in the west along the TransSiberian RR. Additionally, the Russian during the course of the game only receives engineers [i.e., for airbases] as reinforcements. The entire bulk of the Russian "combat army" is confined in the eastern section of the Far East Command. Is it possible to attack in such a manner as to isolate these forces by strong and determined point attacks in the north and south? I believe it is possible and without the outside infusion of massive forces as some have suggested.

The use of Mongolian Cavalry Divisions from the China Expeditionary Army in the west could clearly isolate Russian bases as far west as Irtkusk without running into more that second line engineers with experience and morale in the upper 30s or low 40s. A strong concentration at Hailar with 3 or 4 Japanese Infantry Divisions, and support forces, could take the main Russian base [Borzya] just opposite of Hailar along the Trans-Siberian RR. Most of Russian combat forces are concentrated in Bozya.

In the East, Russian combat forces are concentrated, in the north, in the Blagoveshchenske-Kuysyshevka area. Japanese forces [3 to 4 Infantry Divisions with supporting troops] would concentrate in the Sunwu-Heiho area and attempt to cut the Trans Siberian RR at this point and drive the Russian units toward the south [trying to keep these forces from joining those Russian combat formations in the west].

It would appear that the Japanese should conduct a holding action in the center [Mishan-Chiamusu] while using their bombers to suppress the concentration of Russian bombers in this area. Russian combat forces would have a numerical advantage in this sector but may have to move some of these forces to the north and south to assist in the defense of these areas - hopefully leaving some parity along this sector of the front.

The Japanese forces [5 to 6 Infantry Divisions and 1 to 2 Infantry Brigades plus supporting troops] would concentrate in the area of Mutanchiang. This force would encounter most of the Russian combat forces in the Far East Command. These forces would conduct an offensive along the Mutanchiang-Vladivostok-Uglahamenski line with the primary goal of the capture of Vladivostok.

The overall goals here would be two-fold:
1. To destroy as much of the Russian Far East Command's combat efficiency [i.e., infantry, armor and artillery] since those Russian troops there are all the Russian gets during the game. The Japanese, during the course of the game, get several large combat infantry units in this area throughout the game; and
2. To capture Vladivostok and other cities in the eastern end of the Far East Command [resources and oil are to be found here].

In preparation for this assault I would do the following:

1. Strip all of Korea of any combat formation and move reccon airforces further north near Vladivostok.
2. Use all Mongolian Cavalry Divisions for deep penetration thrusts into the Russian western rear areas [i.e., Ulan Bator].
3. Move all Japanese combat units in Manchuria into western, northern and eastern Manchuria - along with appropriate support forces [i.e., combat engineers, artilllery, combat and supply transport aircraft and the proper headquarters{land and air}].
4. Move 3 fighter squadrons from other theaters into Mishan and Mutanchiang to support [2-Zero squadrons from the Southern Command and 1-Tojo Squadron from the China Expeditionary Army]. It appears that both types can match the fire power of the I-16 Type 24, MiG3 and Yak-1s [most Russian airpower is concentrated in the eastern part of the command.

Moses may ultimately be right concerning the need for 10 outside divisions to suppresss the Russian Far East Command, but the need to keep momentum in the Southern Command Area may be too important to divert these forces. Additionally, with China's cities needing to be carefully garrisoned to prevent "hostile" activies, withdrawal of division size units may be difficult [the best solution may the several Mongolian Cavalry Divisions].

The solution I propose may take more time in mission completion, but Japanese goals and manpower resource suggest a solution within the forces in and about Manchuria.

Any thoughts?



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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/26/2005 12:55:43 AM   
BlackSunshine


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To be honest, I was surprised to see that Russia was even included in WITP. Too many "what-ifs" to deal with.

The Russians would already be fighting a war on their Western Front against the Germans. Depending on how that went, reinforcements would more than likely be made available.

I find it hard to believe that Japan could actually pull it off with the unlimited amount of manpower available to the Russians. And then, in 1942 you have the Germans entering the Caucuses. I would think this would have to be included too, to be realistic at all.

I think the only reason this theatre is included is because the map would look strange to have Russia carved out of it. $.02

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/26/2005 7:50:14 PM   
moses

 

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You can look at the Russian theater a lot of ways. In Dec of 41 pretty much the whole world believed that Russia would collapse. They survived due to herculean efforts to revive their industry, dogged and desperate fighting, a very harsh winter, and some significant German erors.

History only happens once so who really knows what would happen if you could rerun it a hundred times. I suspect that Russia's margin of survival in late 41 was very thin. with a collapse being a very real possibility.

My real point is that most players take Russia's industrial revival for granted, (as they also take the incredible US expansion for granted) But these industries could have been derailed in a number of ways making Japan's chances look much better in all respects.

< Message edited by moses -- 11/28/2005 4:20:06 AM >

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/26/2005 8:28:58 PM   
EUBanana


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Russia collapsed in WW1, they got their ass handed to them by the Kaiser and fell into revolution.

No real reason why it couldn't have happened in WW2 as well.

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/27/2005 6:24:18 AM   
Knavey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Russia collapsed in WW1, they got their ass handed to them by the Kaiser and fell into revolution.

No real reason why it couldn't have happened in WW2 as well.


Except that it didn't.


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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/27/2005 2:40:33 PM   
fokkov


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A lot of "what if" , but i agree that russia was on the brink of collaps end 1941 , and they moved lot
of forces from siberia to the west to save the front.

IF the japanese would have attacked then , it just might have been the thing to bring the russians
on there knees.

IF IF IF

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/27/2005 2:47:03 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

You can look at the Russian theater a lot of ways. In Dec of 41 pretty much the whole world believed that Russia would collapse. They survived due to herculean efforts to revive their industry, dogged and desperate fighting, a very harsh winter, and some significant German erors.

Everyone except the Russians. One of the things that convinced Roosevelt that things weren't as bleak as they seemed on the surface was the fact that when the Soviets submitted their "requests" for Lend Lease Aid, they weren't asking for piles of "finished goods", but for lots of raw materials. They certainly seemed to believe they would have the time and industry to produce their own weapons.

History only happens once so who really knows what would happen if you could rerun it a hundred times. I suspect that Russia's margin of survival in late 42 was very thin. with a collapse being a very real possibility.

Right. It was so "thin" that in November they would surround a German Army at Stalingrad and threaten to do the same to an entire Army Group in the Caucasus. What YOU suspect is not a basis of Historical reference.

My real point is that most players take Russia's industrial revival for granted, (as they also take the incredible US expansion for granted) But these industries could have been derailed in a number of ways making Japan's chances look much better in all respects.

Please be so good as to name some of these "number of ways". I'd be facinated to hear how the Axis was going to stop these production efforts..., especially as they already exceeded Axis production and were just really "warming up"? If you want to make silly "claims", please be so good as to back them up with some real research, quotes, and sources. "I Think" is not much of an arguement unless you can string a lot of degrees in Military History behind your name.



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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/28/2005 4:38:48 AM   
moses

 

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Where I said late 42 in my second paragraph I meant late 41.

Apart from that, excuse me for making "silly" claims. I would back things up with research and maybe a full bibliograpy if perhaps you paid me for the work, and I thought anyone really cared. As is I gave an opinion.

Niether the Russian or allied Industrial miracles were forordaned. Thats my opinion. If you want a good reference read "Why the allies won" by Richard Overy for a start. Other then that just use good sence and logic.

Nothing is easier in the world than screwing up. Germany with supposedly the most advanced and technically proficient industry in the world managed to be totally outclassed by a Russian industry which was crude by any standard. Russia and/or the US could easily have made errors, screwing up their production efforts. For example.

1.) US decides that high quality as opposed to mass produced is needed to match Germany.--This was Germany's call and it cost them.
2.) US planners are "rational" and consider the initial production targets as ridiculous. As would the rest of the world if they had been told. Production is reduced to more "achievable" levels.
3.) US make a catastrophicaly wrong design decision. Something like manueverability is the prime goal in fighter design. Production is set back a year or two as everything must be redesigned and restarted.
4.) Some critical bottleneck developes or someone just flat screws things up. etc. etc.
5.) As for Russia we can just allow for the possibility that the workers simply collapse under the inhuman strain placed upon them. Its hard even now to believe what they went through.

Now we know what happened historically. Its hard to do research on something that might have happened. But I hardly see that the idea that US or Russian production need not have been so amazing is hard to fathom.



< Message edited by moses -- 11/28/2005 4:53:45 AM >

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RE: Attack on the USSR - 11/28/2005 5:52:48 AM   
spence

 

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An attack into Siberia in the winter (the posters seem to indicate a Dec/Jan jumpoff) hardly seems to be the most auspicious moment from the standpoint of logistics. The horse drawn (for the most part) Japanese Army would be hard pressed to advance when the horses expired from lack of proper feed and exposure to the extremes of the Siberian weather. The European Russian climate decimated Germany's horse drawn supply train and according to all I've ever read or heard the Siberian winter is substantially more extreme in so far as both temperature and snowfall. The snowfall would make movement off major transportation lines extremely difficult and would force the Japanese to rely on frontal attack as their principal tactical option. Operating as it did with a doctrine of obtaining "local supply" the IJA was not the best force to lead into a frozen and essentially uninhabited wasteland.
The German experience fighting Russian infantry in Europe showed that Russian units would hold to a position with "oriental fatalism" in the face of overwhelming firepower and odds, UNLESS the attack could be developed from an unexpected direction. As mentioned earlier the winter weather in Siberia would for the IJA to rely on the frontal attack (pretty hard to wade through 5-6ft of snow for even a few hundred feet let alone a major flanking march). With its relatively light arms the IJA was not well equipped to force the issue by virtue of its firepower against an enemy (likely entrenched) with a similar if not quite identical disregard for human life.

Only because of rules which ahistorically restrict Russian movement prior to the Japanese initial attack and totally ignore the physical realities of the theater is any possibility of a successful Japanese winter campaign a possibility IN THE GAME. IRL the chances of success were nil for the reasons mentioned above.

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