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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/14/2008 12:40:09 AM   
brian brian

 

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I just don't think the (purely theoretical) WiF MIL units were ever limited like that. The US National Guard went to Europe. German reservists served as the occupation forces all over Europe. The entire Russian army was used as cannon fodder. The Japanese units represented by MIL were just regular army call-ups who all went to China or elsewhere. French reserves served in the front line at Sedan. Taking a MIL as a loss perfectly represents an army's replacement system. So many of them are part of a country's Reserve Pool because they are not emergency scratch units such as the VolkSturm or Russian Workers; these are no longer in the game but I don't think such units should be projected on to the role of MIL in the force pool. MIL are just a part of each country's army, the part each army labeled '2nd line divisions'. The only way to answer these questions would be to ask Harry. If you want realistic losses in WiF, you need a step loss system, and you'd have to trade in a lot of playability to do that. MIL are an abstraction that is perfectly fine with me.


Anyway, I look forward to seeing what the German AI does. I hope it considers the no-Netherlands, Belgium only option in 39/40 that I have grown to favor.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 241
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/14/2008 1:03:13 AM   
Norman42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

[going back to a penalty for MIL - There were no 'Militia' for 'defending homes' in WWII.


As Patrice mentioned, the Home Guard, Volksturm, and Worker Units were all replaced by the generic term "militia" in WIFFE. All of these units had restrictions on where they could go, and if I recall correctly all 3 were unable to even leave their home country. They also had much worse combat factors and I don't believe any were white print.

In fact the idea of white print militia is rather silly. By thier very nature they are under equipped, and not fully supported by intrinsic supply units and artillery attachments, and are certainly not 'elite'.

Most of the British Homeguard in 1940 were equipped with a whistle, pitchfork/Cricket Bat and birding shotguns, until they started uncrating WW1 rifles that were packed in grease for 25 years...which all had to be boiled for a week to remove the solidified grease.

Russian Worker units were made up of women, crippled soldiers, children, PoWs, and the elderly.

German Volksturm were often made up of 13 year old boys and aged veterans from WW1 who had 1 anti tank rocket per 5 man team.

Japans Home Defence units were much the same.

Front line units with factors sometimes as high as regular army units? I think not. Yet this is how they are often used. The London Militia spends more time defending Malta then London.

Territorials as well; there are very few cases of any territorial force leaving its home country except for the few times when they would help occupy a neighboring nation if it was enemy. Yet Britain seems to have a never ending supply of cheap Territorials to ship all over the world that is rather ahistorical compared to Britains real manpower crunch they suffered the entire war. I'm still trying to figure out who exactly the Canadian Territorials are supposed to represent.

Honestly, I feel the territorial/militia situation is why Britain so often can crush Italy in 1941. They have access to surplus troops far earlier then they historically did, leaving cheap units to defend the empire while the front line army units go and paste Italy 2 years early.




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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/14/2008 9:47:59 AM   
brian brian

 

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Sorry, but I really think the MIL units represent far more than emergency infantry units. Again, you'd have to ask Harry but I don't think he purposely made up a silly white-print Volksturm unit for Berlin. There was a bit more thought put into the system than that. Really, the Volksturm/Russian Workers, and similar type formations were so worthless that I'd say they aren't in the game at all. (Maybe they are the 'notional' units at times.) Harry does mention in the notes that the old 'National Effort' rules are gone, in part replaced by the militia system, but I think there is a bit more to these pieces than just the old men & young boys units being mentioned. You are right there were units created in a pinch by any Major Power being invaded (Italy had them too I believe, the "Coast Defense" divisions), I misspoke about no 'militia' existing.

The units in WiF are abstract, there is no precisely defined OoB as in other games. There are unit designations on the pieces but they are there for historical flavor only. Most people playing WiF don't really care if a country's infantry forces are explicitly designated in full detail, and they aren't. People just take the word 'Militia' and project their own definitions on to the pieces. MIL are an option...you don't have to build and use them, you can buy better units for more BPs. You as the player get to design your armed forces...do you spend extra time and resources on training, or do you rush your men to the front? Do you make tank divisions with 3 tank regiments (ARM), or only 2 (MECH)? Everything is a trade-off in WiF. As the Germans I hope the Russians waste all their BPs on the MIL.

The white-print MIL from the capitals represent the very best of a nation's reserve forces. Being posted to the barracks outside the capital was a prestige posting in an officer corps, so the units drawn from those barracks would be better. (This thought perhaps reveals Harry's opinion of the pre-war US Army though).

I agree with the combat penalties for TERR units. I disagree that they give the CW a big offensive edge. If you spend a lot on them, you aren't spending those BPs on something else. They also don't fare too well if you really do rely on them to defend something. I find them most useful for maintaining order in India, and that's about it. Occasionally I ship one to Malta to stack with a white-print unit. If you are shipping TERRs all over the world, I think you might be forgetting how the cooperation rules work.? I think the country that enjoys the TERR rule the most is Japan. It's also fun to have one hunt down the Libyan 'Camel Corps' deep in Africa.

(in reply to Norman42)
Post #: 243
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/14/2008 6:38:07 PM   
composer99


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quote:

So here is an AI for Germany question...how will the AI decide when to switch gears? It just rolled less than 5 on three assaults on Paris in a row, Russia has taken the Middle East and overrrun Manchuria against an incompetent Japanese army overcommitted in China, the Royal Navy has put most of the Italian navy in the repair pool with hardly a scratch in return, and the first impulse of Sep/Oct 40 is a 'Storm' across Europe. Is it time to switch to a sitzkrieg?


We did have some discussion earlier on changing overall strategic plans, and if I recall correctly we did agree that the ability to switch plans as circumstances dictated was to be part of the scope of the AI. The AI should be able to take the above situation and decide that, after finishing off France, it is time to turn turtle (the above example is, admittedly, pretty well the extreme bad-news situation for the Axis).

quote:

Another question is, when should the AI give up? Can it offer peace?


Hopefully the AI will not capitulate entirely no matter how bad the going gets, since the AI does not have 'morale' the way us mere mortals do.

However, offering peace for other reasons (say, Japan offering China a peace treaty where Japan leaves China in exchange for resources), or forcing a peace (if playing with USSR-Japan compulsory peace) certainly are within the ambit of the AI's behaviours.

_____________________________

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/15/2008 8:54:41 PM   
npilgaard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
"Designing for causes" would be designing a rule that favors the historial course of action against Norway by Germany and Britain, in its causes.

For example this one :


Thanks - some very interesting suggestions (and well-thought-out). Where have you found all those house rules?

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Nikolaj

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Post #: 245
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/15/2008 9:05:41 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
"Designing for causes" would be designing a rule that favors the historial course of action against Norway by Germany and Britain, in its causes.

For example this one :


Thanks - some very interesting suggestions (and well-thought-out). Where have you found all those house rules?

Being subscribed to the WiF Discussion list since 1996 and having an aptitude at storing things on hard drives does that.
I can send you the word file I did with House Rules.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 246
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRA... - 4/16/2008 11:56:44 AM   
npilgaard

 

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Yes, lots of good ideas at that list - and since '96, that's quite an achievement to keep interest that long - especially since it is often the same issues that come up again and again

I would appreciate to see your file - thanks.


< Message edited by npilgaard -- 4/16/2008 11:57:10 AM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/16/2008 5:23:31 PM   
composer99


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Some thoughts on German tactical/operational considerations:

Strategic Bombing: When should Germany engage in strategic bombing raids, and upon whom? German air forces are not very good at strategic air warfare, however it has great nuisance value, forces the Allies to spread their air defences, and is really irritating if the German raid (with 1 strat factor) scores a hit. Generally German strategic air warfare can only be undertaken in a theatre where they have air

The potential targets are: French cities, CW cities, or USSR cities. You can substitute oil for cities if there are any legitimate oil targts.

French Cities: French cities can be bombed in the 1939-1940 period. This should be a fairly easy campaign, as the French air force is weak, and successful strategic air warfare will prevent its growth by suppressing French production. The next time the Germans are fighting in France, in 43-45, the Allies will have air supremacy and will be the ones doing the strategic bombing. After France's liberation, the Germans could conceivably raid French targets, however the Allied air forces are likely to be in the way.

CW Cities: CW cities can be bombed in the 1939-41 period (possibly as late as sometime in 1942 if Germany has been focusing on fighting the Commonwealth and/or the US' entry into the war is delayed). Because CW fighters are better and more numerous than the French, either the Germans must invest heavily in fighter cover, or their strategic raids must be more limited, or they should keep a few bombers around to threaten a strategic raid without intending to execute one. However, if the CW leaves gaps in their air defences, if the Germans have bombers in position they should take advantage of the opportunity.

A strategic air campaign could be a component of the wider war against CW production (the "Battle of the Atlantic") or a component of an invasion of England.

If Germany can spare the bombers a strategic air campaign against CW targets can be fruitful, as reducing CW production and forcing them to spend on defensive forces (as with the convoy war) reduces the pressure on Germany from the Western Allies later on.

As time passes, the Germans' ability to launch strategic air raids vs. CW targets fades.

USSR Cities: Soviet cities can be bombed anywhere during the 1941-43 period if Germany and the USSR are at war, depending on how quickly the Soviet air force builds up. Strategic air warfare against the USSR is difficult because of the need for German bombers to support land operations, the paucity of targets once the Germans have advanced deep into Soviet territory, and the new map scale in Asia.

However, strategic raids may be worthwhile for the same reasons as vs. the CW: the suppression of Soviet production assists early German offensives and inhibits later Soviet offensives. Soviet units built to defend against German strategic raids will be of use later against German defences, however the larger size of the Soviet union can force a greater dispersion of defending fighters, making it more difficult for them to focus their air forces for their own offensives.

As time passes and the German air force is forced to defend vs. Allied tactical operations & strategic air raids, the German ability to bomb Soviet cities fades.

(in reply to npilgaard)
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/16/2008 8:00:32 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Some thoughts on German tactical/operational considerations:

Strategic Bombing: When should Germany engage in strategic bombing raids, and upon whom? German air forces are not very good at strategic air warfare, however it has great nuisance value, forces the Allies to spread their air defences, and is really irritating if the German raid (with 1 strat factor) scores a hit. Generally German strategic air warfare can only be undertaken in a theatre where they have air

The potential targets are: French cities, CW cities, or USSR cities. You can substitute oil for cities if there are any legitimate oil targts.

French Cities: French cities can be bombed in the 1939-1940 period. This should be a fairly easy campaign, as the French air force is weak, and successful strategic air warfare will prevent its growth by suppressing French production. The next time the Germans are fighting in France, in 43-45, the Allies will have air supremacy and will be the ones doing the strategic bombing. After France's liberation, the Germans could conceivably raid French targets, however the Allied air forces are likely to be in the way.

CW Cities: CW cities can be bombed in the 1939-41 period (possibly as late as sometime in 1942 if Germany has been focusing on fighting the Commonwealth and/or the US' entry into the war is delayed). Because CW fighters are better and more numerous than the French, either the Germans must invest heavily in fighter cover, or their strategic raids must be more limited, or they should keep a few bombers around to threaten a strategic raid without intending to execute one. However, if the CW leaves gaps in their air defences, if the Germans have bombers in position they should take advantage of the opportunity.

A strategic air campaign could be a component of the wider war against CW production (the "Battle of the Atlantic") or a component of an invasion of England.

If Germany can spare the bombers a strategic air campaign against CW targets can be fruitful, as reducing CW production and forcing them to spend on defensive forces (as with the convoy war) reduces the pressure on Germany from the Western Allies later on.

As time passes, the Germans' ability to launch strategic air raids vs. CW targets fades.

USSR Cities: Soviet cities can be bombed anywhere during the 1941-43 period if Germany and the USSR are at war, depending on how quickly the Soviet air force builds up. Strategic air warfare against the USSR is difficult because of the need for German bombers to support land operations, the paucity of targets once the Germans have advanced deep into Soviet territory, and the new map scale in Asia.

However, strategic raids may be worthwhile for the same reasons as vs. the CW: the suppression of Soviet production assists early German offensives and inhibits later Soviet offensives. Soviet units built to defend against German strategic raids will be of use later against German defences, however the larger size of the Soviet union can force a greater dispersion of defending fighters, making it more difficult for them to focus their air forces for their own offensives.

As time passes and the German air force is forced to defend vs. Allied tactical operations & strategic air raids, the German ability to bomb Soviet cities fades.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 249
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/16/2008 8:05:30 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Some thoughts on German tactical/operational considerations:

Strategic Bombing: When should Germany engage in strategic bombing raids, and upon whom? German air forces are not very good at strategic air warfare, however it has great nuisance value, forces the Allies to spread their air defences, and is really irritating if the German raid (with 1 strat factor) scores a hit. Generally German strategic air warfare can only be undertaken in a theatre where they have air

The potential targets are: French cities, CW cities, or USSR cities. You can substitute oil for cities if there are any legitimate oil targts.

French Cities: French cities can be bombed in the 1939-1940 period. This should be a fairly easy campaign, as the French air force is weak, and successful strategic air warfare will prevent its growth by suppressing French production. The next time the Germans are fighting in France, in 43-45, the Allies will have air supremacy and will be the ones doing the strategic bombing. After France's liberation, the Germans could conceivably raid French targets, however the Allied air forces are likely to be in the way.

CW Cities: CW cities can be bombed in the 1939-41 period (possibly as late as sometime in 1942 if Germany has been focusing on fighting the Commonwealth and/or the US' entry into the war is delayed). Because CW fighters are better and more numerous than the French, either the Germans must invest heavily in fighter cover, or their strategic raids must be more limited, or they should keep a few bombers around to threaten a strategic raid without intending to execute one. However, if the CW leaves gaps in their air defences, if the Germans have bombers in position they should take advantage of the opportunity.

A strategic air campaign could be a component of the wider war against CW production (the "Battle of the Atlantic") or a component of an invasion of England.

If Germany can spare the bombers a strategic air campaign against CW targets can be fruitful, as reducing CW production and forcing them to spend on defensive forces (as with the convoy war) reduces the pressure on Germany from the Western Allies later on.

As time passes, the Germans' ability to launch strategic air raids vs. CW targets fades.

USSR Cities: Soviet cities can be bombed anywhere during the 1941-43 period if Germany and the USSR are at war, depending on how quickly the Soviet air force builds up. Strategic air warfare against the USSR is difficult because of the need for German bombers to support land operations, the paucity of targets once the Germans have advanced deep into Soviet territory, and the new map scale in Asia.

However, strategic raids may be worthwhile for the same reasons as vs. the CW: the suppression of Soviet production assists early German offensives and inhibits later Soviet offensives. Soviet units built to defend against German strategic raids will be of use later against German defences, however the larger size of the Soviet union can force a greater dispersion of defending fighters, making it more difficult for them to focus their air forces for their own offensives.

As time passes and the German air force is forced to defend vs. Allied tactical operations & strategic air raids, the German ability to bomb Soviet cities fades.

Good post, with which I agree.
An overlooked matter until now, but that can have its importance, even if it has nothing to do with the Allied Strat bombing (normaly).

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 250
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/16/2008 11:57:45 PM   
composer99


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Convoy Hunting

For Germany, convoy hunting takes place with submarines, surface raiders, auxiliary cruisers and naval air power.

Potential Targets
In theory, any Allied convoy anywhere in the world is a potential target for German convoy hunting activity depending on the units Germany has at its disposal.
In practice, German convoy hunting tends to be concentrated along the main CW pipelines going to North America, down to Africa and along the Murmansk Run.

Why Attack Convoys?
First and foremost, Germany should attack convoys to reduce Allied (mainly British or French/Free French) production and disrupt Allied lending of resources or build points.
Secondly, the threat or reality of German attacks on Allied convoys should serve to force the Allies to dedicate units, production and actions to defend against them.
Thirdly, the combination of reduced Allied production and diversion of Allied resources and effort serve to reduce the effectiveness of the Allied onslaught later in the game.

Cooperation from other Axis Powers
Italy is Germany's main partner in convoy hunting, and German & Italian naval commands must liaise closely, as German forces will typically sail out once during a turn and stay at sea while the Italians sail out and conduct the searches to attempt to sink convoys. Because they cooperate, they can base together (although the movement penalty tends to discourage this), base in one another's home countries and draw supply from one another's HQs.

Japanese forces can also assist, although in a more limited fashion. German units can base in Japanese-controlled territory outside of Japan (and vice-versa). Typically, Japanese forces operate independently of German forces in the Pacific and Indian Oceans, with some common cause if the Axis have seized the Suez canal or if long-range German forces are based in the Pacific.

Convoy Targets
CW Targets: These will be the most plentiful targets throughout the game. CW convoys are found worldwide, although their Asia/Pacific routes are often disrupted by the Japanese in 1942. CW convoys are found mainly in a route between the UK and North America, in a route between the UK and Murmansk, and a route between the UK and Africa. There is also usually convoys along the Indian and African coast in the Asia map and shipping Australian resources to Canada through the Pacific.

US Targets: US targets are also reasonably plentiful, though nothing like the CW convoy numbers. US convoys tend to complement or replace CW convoys along the North American route, although they can also be found in the Pacific.

French Targets: These are quite rare, as most French convoys will be sunk early or will become Vichy units. Also, the French very rarely build convoys. They tend to complement or replace CW convoys worldwide.

Soviet/Chinese Targets: The USSR very rarely builds new convoys. As such its 3 convoy points are all it has during the game. USSR convoys can be targeted with more or less ease depending on location (convoys in the Caspian Sea can only be targeted by naval air power). China does not start with convoys, and almost never builds them. By the time China builds convoys, the Germans likely no longer have the ability to attack them.

Submarines
Submarines are among the best units for attacking convoys. They do not have to fight unless they want to, they do not suffer from enemy presence (if that optional rule is used) and they cannot be intercepted (unless the Allies are using sub-hunter aircraft). They may also move at will through the straits of Gibraltar.

Submarines do have their weaknesses: they have no defence against air units and they are not as effective in surface combats (although a concentrated pack of submarines can be more formidable than the defending ships).

Germany should invest in submarine units on an ongoing basis to attack Allied convoys unless it is attempting an all-out Barbarossa. The consistent presence of anywhere from 6-12 subs (both German and allied) available to attack convoys can force the Allies to commit as many naval air units and anywhere from 3 to 4 times as many naval units to their defence.

Using Submarines: In general, Germany should send all its subs out in a single impulse. Ideally they are all based in the same port, so a combined impulse is sufficent. Italian subs should also sail to key sea areas with the Germans. When Germany is doing combined or naval impulses, it should perform the searches itself. When Germany is doing land impulses, the Italians should search instead.

In general, areas with more convoys make for better targets. Choose the areas with the lowest ratio of defence (in terms of ASW factors and especially air power) to convoy targets. If the Germans send their subs out before the Allies have set up their convoy defences for a single turn, they have a temporary advantage as the highest box the defenders will be in is the 3 box, and they will likely only be able or willing to intercept air power to the 0 box.

Storm and Blizzard are bad for submarines on the one hand since they do not get the convoy search bonus, and good on the other hand because the Allies cannot use air power against them. On balance, this is to the submarines' advantage.

At every opportunity Germany should collect all its submarines to a single port at the end of the turn. The best ports for German sub activity are either Brest or Lisbon. There is a danger that Allied forces might land and flip or overrun German submarines, therefore, the more concentrated German submarines are the more defence there should be in the form of corps, perhaps an anti-tank gun and supporting air units.

Effectiveness: German submarines can be considered to be effective if they destroy 2 or more build points of convoys for every build point of submarine built/destroyed. The ideal ratio is probably around 4 or 5:1. The vagaries of search rolls will mean that some turns see very high ratios of submarine effectiveness and some will see very low ratios (possibly even few or no convoys lost for several or many subs sunk or damaged).

Edit: Over time, the effectiveness of German submarines will decline as Allied convoys get their intrinsic ASW (or the Allies build more ASW units) and as they devote more units and especially air power to convoy protection. Typically the peak period of German submarine activity is from late 1940 once German subs can base in the ports along the French Atlantic seaboard until late 1942 once the Americans are in the war and the US and CW have built large amounts of ASW (or intrinsic ASW starts becoming a major factor).

Interception Duty: As convoy hunting becomes less profitable for the German submarine force, an alternative is to attempt to distrupt Allied shipment of troops between Europe and the US. German submarines place themselves in blocking sea areas, preferably those without land-based air interference, and force the Allies to take longer routes (delaying the troop shipments) or to fight through, risking being intercepted and stopping or even perhaps the destruction of Allied sealift and units.

German submarines should attempt to disrupt and destroy Allied convoy or unit shipping until there are no more bases for them to operate out of.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 4/17/2008 12:04:12 AM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 251
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 12:38:04 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Convoy Hunting

For Germany, convoy hunting takes place with submarines, surface raiders, auxiliary cruisers and naval air power.

Now you must also talk about the best tactics in using Auxiliary Cruisers (CX) and also Milchcows.
And also a little bit about the Kriegsmarine use against convoys, which can be important too.

My own two cents about those would be :

Auxiliary Cruisers (CX) : A German who has decided to follow a strategy involving a Battle of the Atlantic (I think that the BOA should never be totaly ignored, it should always be done) should also use CX (if the option is used). Two CX units operational at the same time can make the CW use as far as 10 cruisers to hunt them, for a couple of turns, maybe even a year. So I think that Germany should always finish 2 CX initialy ASAP, and finish another one as soon as one disappear, until the BOA is finished. CX have the possibility to base in Neutral ports, but I would not use that ability unless I can't do otherwise, which would be surprising given the extraordinary ranges & move of the CX. I would preferably base them in minor countries or territories controlled by other Axis Powers. Italian East Africa, Siam, the NEI, Indochina are good places to go back to port. Also, a good place to hunt is the eastern Pacific Ocean, near South America where the CP from Australia usualy sail, where the CW usually would never go with warships. This necessitate to base in neutral ports, but is a major nuisance to the CW. CW never achieve a lot of damage, you can call yourself lucky or skilled if anyone of your CX manage at sinking more than 6 CP in its whole carreer, most of the time they abort them, or sink a couple, but their main raison d'etre is to force the Royal Navy to spread out over huges areas of ocean.

Milchcow, well, I never found the right idea to use them. I did find some bad ideas though. For example, having one on station near an Allied base is bad, very bad, as a SUB based here will be an easy prey if the allied have the intiative next turn. Maybe a good use can be before end of 1940 to base 1 SUB to be able to raid the Atlantic early, before the French bases are taken, but very risky as I said. Maybe it is usefull as a base for 1 SUB in the Southern Atlantic, from where 1 SUB would raid the coasts of Africa.

About the Kreigsmarine, I beleive that it is a good idea to base it in Brest / Lisbon when these ports are available, because even if they never sail out, their threat will make the Allies think twice when sailing out their TRS / AMPH in shuttle travels from the USA to Europe. This will force them to escort them more than they would escort them if only SUBs where presents. Also, a couple of well chosen raids into the North Atlantic can be devastating. It is evident that the Kriegsmarine in Brest should always have some air cover, and at least 1 corps defending it. But, the most important thing IMO to try to achieve as the German with the Kreigsmarine, is to try not to waste it in convoys attack only, and have it grinded down ship after ship to a useless force. The German must spare it so that it can return to Kiel one day, and transform the Allies try at conquering Copenhagen in a nightmare of supply through straits controlled by the Kriegsmarine for example, or try their luck at the supply through the North Sea of the newly invaded allies in 43/44.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 252
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 4:10:32 AM   
Taxman66


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I don't know about a German Strat. Bombing campaign.

First off, Germany has very very few fighters with any kind of range and those that they do have are either better served as bombers (110s) or don't show up until later in the war.  This means that the bombers will often have to go unescorted and that's made worse because their bomber's A2A values are also lousy.

As France I'd love to see Germany Strat. bombing me.  It means those planes are not Ground Striking/Supporting me (and maybe the CW can intercept them for me), and if he went anywhere other than a front line factory I could actually send a FTR after them with an advantage in A2A combat.  I suppose if Germany had left over planes on the turn Paris goes down and there aren't any French FTRs... but then what's France going to do with those build points anyway (unless they're sending them to the CW at that time).

Against the CW, the same applies until the fall of France.  Then it's probably more of a wash.  The Germans will have more FTRs that can reach London so will probably have a bit of an advantage in the A2A tables, but after factoring in the higher cost of losses (FTRs + LND + more pilots vs. FTRs + less pilots) I bet its pretty close to a break even situation.  Given that, it seems a foolish proposition if you're planning to go into Russia.  Might be worth it if you're planning a Med campaign and/or Sea Lion.

Against Russia?  Be serious... Russia's going to move her factories out of the way before you can bomb them until the lines stabalize.  Now, once that's happened you have the same situation as France... only this time you are soon going to be on the defensive.

< Message edited by Taxman66 -- 4/17/2008 4:18:08 AM >

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Post #: 253
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 5:17:10 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I don't know about a German Strat. Bombing campaign.

First off, Germany has very very few fighters with any kind of range and those that they do have are either better served as bombers (110s) or don't show up until later in the war.  This means that the bombers will often have to go unescorted and that's made worse because their bomber's A2A values are also lousy.

As France I'd love to see Germany Strat. bombing me.  It means those planes are not Ground Striking/Supporting me (and maybe the CW can intercept them for me), and if he went anywhere other than a front line factory I could actually send a FTR after them with an advantage in A2A combat.  I suppose if Germany had left over planes on the turn Paris goes down and there aren't any French FTRs... but then what's France going to do with those build points anyway (unless they're sending them to the CW at that time).

Against the CW, the same applies until the fall of France.  Then it's probably more of a wash.  The Germans will have more FTRs that can reach London so will probably have a bit of an advantage in the A2A tables, but after factoring in the higher cost of losses (FTRs + LND + more pilots vs. FTRs + less pilots) I bet its pretty close to a break even situation.  Given that, it seems a foolish proposition if you're planning to go into Russia.  Might be worth it if you're planning a Med campaign and/or Sea Lion.

Against Russia?  Be serious... Russia's going to move her factories out of the way before you can bomb them until the lines stabalize.  Now, once that's happened you have the same situation as France... only this time you are soon going to be on the defensive.

Well, the AIO should take advantage of mistakes. For instance, if the USSR doesn't move its factories out of range (say Sevastopol), then the AIO should consider bombing them. If it didn't, you would say the AIO is stupid - and be correct. Many of your other critiques here are in the same vein: against good play, the AIO will not have the opportunity to do these things, or would be foolish to do them because of the losses it would suffer.

But there will be many new players that the AIO will face and it should take advantage of any mistakes it sees the humans make.

Even worse, if the AIO doesn't know to do these things when it has the opportunity, the human players will quickly leran that they do not have to worry about, say, strategic bombing, because the AIO has no plans for conducting that type of warfare, no matter what.
---
I need to build into the AIO the ability to exploit bad play by the human. That is probably a lot more important than devising an optimal strategic plan against expert opponents.

Most of these decisions we take for granted when we play over the board, but the AIO only knows what to do if it has recevied explicit instructions.


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 1:50:16 PM   
Mitchellvitch

 

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A point for the AI - and us - to consider regarding the use of German submarines; should they concentrate in wolfpacks in areas of high convoy concentration, or spread out to pick on less defended areas and maximize the number of search rolls?

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Post #: 255
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 7:58:33 PM   
composer99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I don't know about a German Strat. Bombing campaign.

First off, Germany has very very few fighters with any kind of range and those that they do have are either better served as bombers (110s) or don't show up until later in the war.  This means that the bombers will often have to go unescorted and that's made worse because their bomber's A2A values are also lousy.


The CW's strat bombers have generally poor a2a factors, and so do many of the USA's. That doesn't stop them from launching raids, even unescorted ones, into Germany, into the teeth of German fighter cover.

I already acknowledge that Germany isn't good at strategic bombing: "German air forces are not very good at strategic air warfare". The point is not for them to attempt to beat the Allies at what is the (Western) Allied way of war par excellence. The point is to force the Allies to do something they don't want to do - defend their own factories.

quote:


As France I'd love to see Germany Strat. bombing me.  It means those planes are not Ground Striking/Supporting me (and maybe the CW can intercept them for me), and if he went anywhere other than a front line factory I could actually send a FTR after them with an advantage in A2A combat.  I suppose if Germany had left over planes on the turn Paris goes down and there aren't any French FTRs... but then what's France going to do with those build points anyway (unless they're sending them to the CW at that time).


Yes, of course during the summer campaign the Germans are too busy supporting their offensive operations to be bothered with strategically bombing French targets, of which all the key ones should soon fall to Germany. That leaves three turns of relatively bad weather during the fall, winter and spring of 39/40 where they may well have air units sitting idle with nothing to do... but strat bomb French factories.

The French have a real shortage of fighters during that period, and a German strat bombing campaign vs. France could also be about trying to force them to fight, since Germany can make good on air unit losses much more quickly than France. And if the French don't give battle, hey, you get a badly needed +1 to the die roll.

quote:


Against the CW, the same applies until the fall of France.  Then it's probably more of a wash.  The Germans will have more FTRs that can reach London so will probably have a bit of an advantage in the A2A tables, but after factoring in the higher cost of losses (FTRs + LND + more pilots vs. FTRs + less pilots) I bet its pretty close to a break even situation.  Given that, it seems a foolish proposition if you're planning to go into Russia.  Might be worth it if you're planning a Med campaign and/or Sea Lion.


Why send bombers with fighter cover to London if the CW keeps their fighters there? Why not head for the mid-country where there are more targets? Force the CW to leave a fighter there where it can't fight you in France or Belgium.

You need never actually launch a strategic raid into the teeth of CW fighter cover as long as your threat forces the CW to put fighter cover to defend every factory, and as long as you back it up with raids on undefended factories and the occasional escorted raid to make him exhaust or divert his fighters. A single bomber that can reach any factory in England requires 3-5 CW fighters to stop it (London area, middle region, Scotland, N. Ireland, maybe SW region), and if it has 2-4 a2a factors it could conceivably launch raids against air cover if they are weaker air units (Gladiators, Defiants & such).

Once the Western Allies are basing 12-range fighters in England, your strategic bombing days are effectively over except, perhaps, for nuisance raids on Belfast if they don't base a fighter or two in interception range, or if you have a bomber or two left over and the Allies have committed most/all their fighters for the turn.

quote:


Against Russia?  Be serious... Russia's going to move her factories out of the way before you can bomb them until the lines stabalize.  Now, once that's happened you have the same situation as France... only this time you are soon going to be on the defensive.


Ah, but I am serious. There are quite a few Soviet factories that cannot be railed at all (the red factories), and the Soviets are rarely able to evacuate every single one of their blue factories before you cut off their rail lines, even if you do not take the cities. Further, the Soviets will often rail factories to locations that your longer-range bombers could conceivably strike (Murmansk and Baku come to mind). Germany will not always have the bombers to spare to launch a raid or two, especially not while they are on the warpath, however there will be moments when German forces/HQs are flipped and will not be moving much more, or perhaps when Germany is doing air or supercombined actions to bring the air force forward, where they will have the air units & missions to launch a few raids and stretch Soviet air defences. There will also be periods of bad weather (save for Storm/Blizzard) where you will not be launching many attacks even when you are on the strategic offensive. If you have not seized Leningrad or Moscow or Stalingrad (which all have red factories), you can bomb them.

And when things turn around, provided the USSR has not cracked the line yet, where do you think the USSR wants its fighters? At the point of attack helping USSR bombers achieve their own ground strike, ground support, paradrop or strategic bombing missions, or defending against annoying long-range German bombers? Unlike the Western Allies, the USSR does not have good fighters in terms of either range or a2a factors.

To recapitulate a point in my first post on German strategic bombing, Germany does not have the ability to launch the kind of strategic air war that the Western Allies can. End of story. So it shouldn't try.

What Germany should do, when and where the opportunity arises, is force the Allies to divert units, effort and attention to defending their factories instead of either defending against the immediate German land/air onslaught or taking the fight to German factories or units and to make them pay for failing to do so. They may not always succeed - that is up to the dice - but every unit the Allies have defending somewhere from 42 on is a unit they don't have attacking somewhere, and, provided the Allies are commiting more units to defend factories than the Axis are to attacking them, that is a win for the Axis.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 9:51:27 PM   
npilgaard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

A point for the AI - and us - to consider regarding the use of German submarines; should they concentrate in wolfpacks in areas of high convoy concentration, or spread out to pick on less defended areas and maximize the number of search rolls?


Yes, that is an interesting consideration (and a similar one is related to strat. bombing - lots of small raids, or few larger ones).
A few thoughts on this:

Wolfpacks:
- if CW/US has no (or very few) available CONV within range to repair damaged lines, then it can really affect CW production to hit a single sea area and remove fx 3-6 CONVs here, or maybe, if very lucky, cut the line entirely (especially later in the war, when the SUB-fleet has been built to a substantial size).
This is also true if the attack is done late in a turn with no time to react for CW
In such cases the goal is not necessarily to destroy the CONVs (although that is of course to be preferred) - abort is often enough. They just have to be removed from the sea area. (In a few cases it is actually better to not spend surprise points to raise the naval combat column by one, as this will reduce the impact. Fx -X 2D 1A raised to 1X -D -A will mean less damage against the convoy line)
- if lots of enemy SCS/AC are present then damage against the SUBs can be significant
- if CW/US has lots of SCS in reserve, then those will be sent to the sea area after the SUB-pack has arrived, making further searching dangerous
- this tactic is high gain/lose - either the pack finds and does significant damage (especially against weakly-defended lines), or it doesn't find, and no damage is dealt.
- against weakly defended lines with lots of CONVs (10+ to provide increased search bonus) it can be a good tactic. Unfortunately it is rare to encounter such a juicy target :-)
Also, if the German player is not worried about SUB-loses (late in the war, or if he doesn't want to play a BoA) then a pack can deal damage even against well-defended convoy lines (altough the SUBs will suffer as well then)

Spreading out:
- if CW/US concentrates their SCS/AC in a few important sea areas or they are committed to other tasks, or if the Axis get the first impulse, then parts of the convoy lines may be lightly defended (sometimes only by 1-2 SCSs in the 0-box). In that case it is often worthwhile to spread out somwehat
- that will lead to more of a war-of-attrition type of BoA with less randomness
- X results on SUBs tend to be less frequent, as there are less enemy SCS/AC per sea area and less SUBs, meaning usually getting results in the upper left of the naval combat table.

All in all, it is often a matter of preference - I like to spread out, but others may feel differently.
Imho, it depends on a number of factors:

Overall German BoA-strategy:

heavy BoA:
- Build lots of SUBs (be careful about scrapping). Get them out early to maximize # of impulses to make searches, and put pressure on CW.
Would be nice if forcing CW to commit part of its main fleet to other tasks than convoy escort (e.g. German surface fleet or Italian fleet hit CW weak spots)
- try to avoid X results on the SUBs. D can be tolerated, but A is to be preferred, even if it means a little less damage against the CONVs
- use spare HQ(s) to reorg aborted SUBs, and send them back into the fray
- if possible: search every impulse (either Germany, or more often Italy)
- beware of NAVs (incl intercepting NAVs)
- if a sea area is to heavily defended, don't search here
- try to get at least 4 (or better 6) sub-factors in each sea area (and later in the war more), unless convoy lines are very lightly or unprotected in certain sea areas, then even a single half decent SUB can be ok
- coordinate the SUB movement, so SUBs end in as high a box as possible, but preferably not in different boxes in a single sea - that will reduce the effectiveness. Better to keep them together in a slightly lower box and then let the high-speed SUBs move to other sea areas
- if lots of CONVs in only lightly defended sea area, or if CW has committed fleet to overall convoy defense making most or all sea areas to well guarded for to be handled by 1-2 SUBs : send in large pack to try to do significant damage (often best to keep to a max of 4 SUBs per area though, to limit casualties)

no or only light BoA:
- at the occasional spare impulse late in a turn: take combined action and sail entire SUB-pack against important convoy line sea area and go for the find. Use surprise points to increase damage done, rather than decrease damage received

medium BoA:
somewhere in between the above - a matter of personal taste, I guess.
I prefer acting mostly as per 'heavy BoA', though

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Post #: 257
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/17/2008 11:42:35 PM   
composer99


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Convoy Hunting - Surface Raiders

See Patrice's comments immediately below. My own commentary to follow.

quote:



ORIGINAL: Froonp

About the Kreigsmarine, I beleive that it is a good idea to base it in Brest / Lisbon when these ports are available, because even if they never sail out, their threat will make the Allies think twice when sailing out their TRS / AMPH in shuttle travels from the USA to Europe. This will force them to escort them more than they would escort them if only SUBs where presents. Also, a couple of well chosen raids into the North Atlantic can be devastating. It is evident that the Kriegsmarine in Brest should always have some air cover, and at least 1 corps defending it. But, the most important thing IMO to try to achieve as the German with the Kreigsmarine, is to try not to waste it in convoys attack only, and have it grinded down ship after ship to a useless force. The German must spare it so that it can return to Kiel one day, and transform the Allies try at conquering Copenhagen in a nightmare of supply through straits controlled by the Kriegsmarine for example, or try their luck at the supply through the North Sea of the newly invaded allies in 43/44.


Surface raiders are defined here as any battleships, heavy and light cruisers, and carriers the Germans use for the purpose of hunting convoys.

Surface raiders can be an effective force for hunting convoys if they can catch them with little defence. However, in general they are not very useful as convoy raiders in WiF. In particular, they suffer from presence of the enemy (if that option is in use), they can be interecepted by any enemy naval or air unit at sea, and they must commit to fight in a naval combat (unlike submarines). They are also vulnerable to enemy port attacks regardless of what sort of port they are based in.

German surface raiders do have their strengths: they have good range and movment and they are surprisingly good at naval combat (any single German ship is better than almost any corresponding CW or even US ship until the CW/US 39-40 battleships are in play).

Germany rarely has reason to invest in surface raiders solely for the purpose of attacking convoys - they are too expensive and take too long to build compared to submarines. As such, the only expense Germany should pay with regards to surface raiders is to repair damaged ships. If Germany is pursuing a "Seal the Med" or "Sealion" strategy, then its priorities for fleet building are different (and out of the scope of a discussion on attacking convoys).

Using Surface Raiders: As Patrice notes, often the best use for surface raiders is not to use them - to leave them as a fleet-in-being in port where they can threaten both Allied convoy and troop shipping. This will usually force the Allies to dedicate extra forces (especially battleships and fleet carriers) to defending their convoy lines and troop shipments. The Allies will also usually be forced to leave their own shadow task force whose explicit aim is to react to the sailing of German surface raiders.

Surface raiders can be deployed opportunistically, either late in a turn or after the Allies have shot their bolt, in an attempt to attack Allied convoy or unit shipping. Germany can either concentrate a large fleet on a single target, or spread them out on weakly defended targets. This is in contrast to submarines, which are best deployed early before Allied convoy defences are restored to nominal status. Because of the relative superiority of German ships to Allied ones, a German surface fleet with surprise can usually do significant damage to the cruiser pickets defending convoy lines if not to the convoys themselves.

Storm and Blizzard weather is bad for surface raiders because they do not get the convoy bonus. On the other hand, they are safe from air power. On balance, the advantage probably lies with the surface raiders.

As noted by Patrice, the port in which the German surface fleet is based should be guarded by a minimum of 1 corps and some air power. This is doubly true if the port also serves as a base for the German submarine fleet.

Effectiveness: German surface raiders can be considered effective if they have sunk or damaged 2 or more sealift units (TRS, AMPH) for every sunk or damaged surface raider, or if they have destroyed 3-4 or more build points of convoys and escorts for every destroyed build point of surface raider.

Another possible measure of the effectiveness of German surface raiders is the number of Allied naval assets commited to defend against them or the effort made to neutralize them.

Over time, the effectiveness of German surface raiders will fade as the US joins the war and as Allied naval and naval air forces build up. Once the Allies are able to launch and support an invasion and substantial land campaign in the theatre where German surface raiders are based, their effectiveness as surface raiders is at an end and they must retreat to a more secure base.

Ultimately, the German surface fleet will have no effectiveness except to contest either the North or Baltic Sea, with the aid of German naval air power, based out of Kiel. However, because of the various roles aside from surface raiding that the German fleet can play (as noted above by Patrice), it should avoid both a slow grinding destruction by attrition or a large-scale suicide run except in a last-ditch effort to check the Allied advance.



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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/18/2008 2:24:08 PM   
oscar72se

 

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I think you all have valid points regarding Germanys naval strategy. My experience when playing Germany is that I often find it hard to create the opportunity for choosing a naval action which means that most naval moves are excercised in a combined action with only one naval move per impulse. This means that you as a german player have to plan your naval strikes accordingly, basing your fleet in one port and waiting for really, really bad weather. Playing Germany I have very seldom "time" for a naval move.

IMO I think that the german players limitation to one naval move per combined action is the most significant limitation to her ability to wage naval warfare. The vessels abilities themself matters little compared to this.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/19/2008 3:24:36 AM   
brian brian

 

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If you play with Presence of the Enemy the German surface raiding is a lot more difficult. But the Japanese benefit from that rule though. The only way around it without using up a precious naval move is to send out a junk plane on a prior impulse.


Germany doesn't have many good bombers to hit the Russian factories with. But Italy does.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/30/2008 6:20:07 PM   
composer99


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I feel a little vindicated right now in my thoughts on German strategic air warfare - or at least the threat of it. In my current RL game (I am playing the USA) my German opponent has had a single LND3 sitting around in France threatening to strategically bomb English factories now that he has moved most of his bombers to the East for Barb.

My CW ally has five to six(!) fighters sitting around, including in remote parts of the UK and North Ireland, to cover all his factories. That's a 4:1 ratio of build points (and a 5:1 ratio of units) committed to the otherwise nonexistent air war over England, in Germany's favour.

Steve (the German) has been talking about rebasing that remaining LND3 east to fight in USSR. I'm not so sure he should bother. Between them the Germans & Italians have plenty of bombers to fight in the USSR, and that one sitting around idle in France is tying up a lot of good fighters that could be doing something else (like being phased into reserves to free up pilots for CW bombers!).

However, turnabout is fair play: the threat of CW strategic bombing and port strikes has left the Axis carelessly short of fighters against the USSR. My Soviet ally assures me (I had better check for myself on Friday when we play next) that as of the start of May/June 1941 the Axis have one (Italian) fighter on the border vs. the USSR. All the rest are covering German factories and Axis ports.

I assume that the Germans will do something about their fighter shortage (not least by ground striking the USSR during the surprise impulse when it doesn't matter about the USSR fighters), though.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 4/30/2008 6:33:32 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/30/2008 9:05:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I feel a little vindicated right now in my thoughts on German strategic air warfare - or at least the threat of it. In my current RL game (I am playing the USA) my German opponent has had a single LND3 sitting around in France threatening to strategically bomb English factories now that he has moved most of his bombers to the East for Barb.

My CW ally has five to six(!) fighters sitting around, including in remote parts of the UK and North Ireland, to cover all his factories. That's a 4:1 ratio of build points (and a 5:1 ratio of units) committed to the otherwise nonexistent air war over England, in Germany's favour.

Steve (the German) has been talking about rebasing that remaining LND3 east to fight in USSR. I'm not so sure he should bother. Between them the Germans & Italians have plenty of bombers to fight in the USSR, and that one sitting around idle in France is tying up a lot of good fighters that could be doing something else (like being phased into reserves to free up pilots for CW bombers!).

However, turnabout is fair play: the threat of CW strategic bombing and port strikes has left the Axis carelessly short of fighters against the USSR. My Soviet ally assures me (I had better check for myself on Friday when we play next) that as of the start of May/June 1941 the Axis have one (Italian) fighter on the border vs. the USSR. All the rest are covering German factories and Axis ports.

I assume that the Germans will do something about their fighter shortage (not least by ground striking the USSR during the surprise impulse when it doesn't matter about the USSR fighters), though.

Is AA that ineffective?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/30/2008 11:57:35 PM   
composer99


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German or Soviet AA?

The Germans don't have any AA units defending their cities right now, so yes, it's pretty ineffective.

As for the USSR, I suppose their AA guns are okay, but they are halved during surprise impulses while the bombers get extra dice, so they are not very effective when surprised.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 12:26:54 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

German or Soviet AA?

The Germans don't have any AA units defending their cities right now, so yes, it's pretty ineffective.

As for the USSR, I suppose their AA guns are okay, but they are halved during surprise impulses while the bombers get extra dice, so they are not very effective when surprised.

My question was whether building fighters was the only way to defend against strategic bombing. I would think that a few AA units might serve the purpose too.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 3:58:33 AM   
Taxman66


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I don't know about factories in flames, but the standard AA is not all that effective, usually they'll supress a point or two.  Additionally, there not that many AA units, and only some of them are 'heavy', they're expensive and can only cover a range of 1 hex

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 4:40:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I don't know about factories in flames, but the standard AA is not all that effective, usually they'll supress a point or two.  Additionally, there not that many AA units, and only some of them are 'heavy', they're expensive and can only cover a range of 1 hex

So fighters are the only real defense then?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 5:42:44 AM   
brian brian

 

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one LND3? 6 CW fighters? I hope the AI doesn't play like that CW player.

But I do like the German bombing of the CW idea. The Condors are fun little pieces. Some day I'm going to try a Battle of Britain, W. Allied style with air impulses and HQ re-orgs, until London is flattened. Or, well, at least dented.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 5:46:45 AM   
Norman42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

So fighters are the only real defense then?




Pretty much.

AA units are a very cost-ineffective defence against STR bombing. There are also too few counters to cover the vast number of factories. Its just too easy for the enemy to avoid that one factory and fly to another nearby one with no AA.

I think the only place that regularly sees AA factory defence is Lille in France, just due to the fact that Germany has to commit so many fighters in this area to fend off the fighters based in southern England that can intercept. One AA unit in Lille at least gives some minor defence, saving Germany one or more fighters for coverage elsewhere.

Added to that, the fact that the better AA units are also quite nice to have in the front lines of combat(great anti-tank factors) makes 'wasting' them in factory air defence quite rare.

Hopefully, Factories in Flames changes this, but from what I've seen the AA unit counters are still too few to be effective. Perhaps they have an area of effect in FiF that would make them much more viable(ie 5 hex range to represent spreading out of AA assets?) I do not know.



< Message edited by Norman42 -- 5/1/2008 5:49:41 AM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 7:31:51 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42
Hopefully, Factories in Flames changes this, but from what I've seen the AA unit counters are still too few to be effective. Perhaps they have an area of effect in FiF that would make them much more viable(ie 5 hex range to represent spreading out of AA assets?) I do not know.

No, same range.
But IMO, they won't be more efficient than the current AA units, nothing is as efficient as intercepting fighters, and they wil end up behind the front lines defending against Ground Strikes.

(in reply to Norman42)
Post #: 269
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 5/1/2008 7:27:55 PM   
Mitchellvitch

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
One place German AA can be effective is in the midst of the Ruhr valley - one 88 can, as I recall, cover the three main factory hexes, and makes a nice supplement to, although not replacement for, fighter cover.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 270
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