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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 4/9/2007 10:21:26 PM   
composer99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
My point was that a successfull sealion almost always comes from improvisation ..ei. switching TO a sealion ...ei. if CW has been quick to reinforce Afrika in 39 ...and end up getting the BEF annihilated in France ...then a quick switch to a sealion ...perhaps even a landing in UK BEFORE fall of france can be successfull. However a deliberate strategy of "now I will build towards and force through a sealion" will almost always fail if CW knows what he is doing.


While an impromptu Sealion in 1940 might be achievable, it requires a rather good deal of luck on the part of the Germans - the CW has to empty England out to the BEF and/or Africa, the BEF has to get destroyed, and the CW has to have been negligent in not building land units or fighters in 1939 or early in 1940. Furthermore, the Germans will have to get rather lucky in avoiding having their only sealift in 39-40 (1 trs & 1 amph) getting damaged or sunk, as they will have almost no invasion capability and (on the turn of the invasion) absolutely no follow-up capability. The RAF also has to prove incompetent on ground strikes to pin the attackers to their beachhead.

Furthermore, I disagree that a pre-meditated Sealion is doomed to fail.

Sealion, in WiF, is not really about conquering England (if you can manage it, great, but don't bet on it). Sealion in WiF is about three things: (1) damaging or destroying British production and convoy pipelines such that they are incapable of building up adequately in the late-war in conjunction with the Americans to crush Germany in the West or to stretch German lines beyond breaking point throughout Europe; (2) prevent the Allies from concentrating on and hence destroying Germany's weaker Italian ally; and (3) by drawing British and (later) American attention and forces to England, give the other Axis powers (especially Japan) the freedom to expand with minimal resistance from the Western Allies, earning the objectives the Axis needs to win the game (the Indian Ocean handshake).

Germany needs two things to get a pre-meditated Sealion going. The first is to build out its long-range bombers, naval bombers, and fighters to exhaust CW airpower across the UK and to contest the North Sea and maybe even also the Bay of Biscay from the invasion turn on - the Germans are committing to spend at least a year, possibly longer, trying to duke it out with the Royal Navy.

The second thing is enough sealift and/or airlift to invade or paradrop into two or three hexes right away during the invasion, and then be able to bring adequate follow-up forces in during the turn of the invasion. That sealift and airlift has to be able to continue shipping in troops for sometime after in adequate numbers to overwhelm the British defences.

If those two things are in place, then even a strong British defence may not be enough to throw off the initial invasions (three hexes for preference, four if you can manage it) - at which point the Germans might be able to get ashore in force somewhere in England. Even if the CW completely builds out their army in 39-40, they probably won't have enough army to fight the Wehrmacht toe-to-toe if it can really get ashore in force.

Finally, to reinforce a point, remember that a Sealion isn't a failure even if the Germans don't get on the beaches (or even if they are promptly booted off) if they have bought time for the Italians to secure the Suez Canal and Malta and for Japan to conquer wide swaths of CW territory (especially Australia/New Zealand and maybe even India or South Africa).

The point is that an improvised Sealion is very likely to fail in all three ways discussed above if launched in 1940 unless an extraordinary number of things go Germany's way, and an ad hoc Sealion launched in 1941 is pretty well doomed to failure unless the CW player is both truly incompetent and very unlucky.

Edit: I should point out that one reason I am a very conservative WiF player and will argue in favour of a conservative AI is because I am described by one of my fellow WiF players here in Ottawa as the "unluckiest guy he knows".

< Message edited by composer99 -- 4/23/2007 10:44:36 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 4/23/2007 11:24:58 PM   
composer99


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Further to this, I have to mention that in the WiF game I am playing, we played through March/April 1941 yesterday. I am playing the CW, and the Germans have been building for a Sealion.

The Germans have had an awful tough time attacking France (lots of losses, bad combat rolls), which delayed the installation of a Vichy government until Christmas (with corresponding benefits for the CW convoy lines).

They also lost their PARA during their first attack on Paris (the second one is the one that succeeded), but they did rebuild it promptly. It will arrive as reinforcements in May/June.

The Germans also lost a couple of Italian bombers (including a NAV) and a German NAV during the summer of 40. The Italians have not yet made good on those losses (they are busily spending their money on subs, which are cycling in and out of the repair pool with alacrity). Germany's BoA up until M/A was not fantastic - maybe 1/2-dozen CW convoys sunk for about 1 dozen build points of subs lost or damaged.

On the plus side, they managed to get both Italian transports out into the Bay of Biscay while Italy was neutral. CW declared war on Italy to try to get them, and they managed to escape. This has made up somewhat for Germany's otherwise lax naval construction programme.

However, despite the CW's aggressive army building programme, the Germans - because they had been preparing for Sealion since the start of the game (albeit very poorly - only 1 amph built, no other sealift, no CVs, no marine or para divs) - have been able to take advantage of the remaining holes in the CW defence of England to invade in March/April during good weather. They dropped into Sheffield with an INF & MAR corps, and an eng div. They lost the MAR corps (thankfully!). They also invaded the hex east of it with an HQ and an inf div.

Sheffield's defence was so strong, thanks to ground support, that the CW did not launch an attack on it (they got re-flipped by the HQ, and loads of support flown onto the spot or in range) - so that beachhead remains, although it has been quite thoroughly blocked up, and awaits only a cut of the supply lines and some flips to bring it down.

Otherwise, the Germans had some successes in the air (shooting down a CW cvp and 2 ftrs, killing some pilots while they were at it) and some failures (lost their only atr and the mtn corps that was in it!).

The Germans may be able to get an invasion off somewhere else, but unless it's in the south where there's factories to be blown up (and air cover), and unless it succeeds brilliantly somewhere where they can't get blitzed off, it won't do them much good.

Despite the rather poor strategic chances of the Sealion in and of itself, it has in some levels been a success - the CW has focused entirely on defending the UK, which will throw its offensive against Italy off until later in 1942. The downside is that the massive land unit building by the CW means that India and Malaya are well defended, and Australia and NZ are likely to have respectable garrisons by year's end.

The moral of the story is that even modest preparations by the Germans for Sealion can pay off some - but they do need to make some preparations.

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Post #: 92
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 4/24/2007 2:07:07 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Thanks.

I had forgotten about the operational possiblity of the Italinas going to the Bay of Biscay with their naval transports. I will be sure to add that as a option for the Italian AIO.

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Post #: 93
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 4/24/2007 5:11:57 AM   
composer99


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It's quite a coup if you can get away with it, but it does eliminate Italy's offensive power in the Med, so I'd only do it if a Sealion was absolutely in the cards.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 4/26/2007 3:00:15 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks.

I had forgotten about the operational possiblity of the Italinas going to the Bay of Biscay with their naval transports. I will be sure to add that as a option for the Italian AIO.

from my limited experience, as soon as Germany has French ports within range for Italian boats to rebase to, the CW will declare war to prevent just such a maneuver.

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Post #: 95
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 4/26/2007 7:16:20 PM   
composer99


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Not when the Italians flee to Hamburg (as they did in my game). Through two blockades.

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Post #: 96
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 5/5/2007 3:39:54 PM   
npilgaard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks.

I had forgotten about the operational possiblity of the Italinas going to the Bay of Biscay with their naval transports. I will be sure to add that as a option for the Italian AIO.

from my limited experience, as soon as Germany has French ports within range for Italian boats to rebase to, the CW will declare war to prevent just such a maneuver.


One (somewhat difficult) way to get a few Italians out of the Med before CW closes Gibraltar is to have the Italians themselves capture a port late in the turn, e.g. the SW port (Mogador) in Marocco (can be invaded by a DIV on surprise). Italian fleet (with at least one corps) can the return to base.
A number of problems, though: Only 4 ships in a minor port; CW fleets in the Atlantic preventing movement/destroying small fleet if search succesful; port attack by CW CVs; end of turn supply must be through Marocco, so important that no/very few allied units here.
If one is really gambling as an Italian player, at a time where the CW fleet is committed elsewhere, the 3-range SCS+the 2 TRS could be moved to the Bay of Biscay and then in the next impulse returned to base in Germany. And 4 2-range SCS (perhaps some BBs) could be moved to to Mogador. Very high risk, though - to unlikey to succes imho.


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 6/25/2007 11:18:20 PM   
dale1066


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I guess this thread has been dorment for a while if thats for a good reason then no problem.

One tactic that I've seen and used to good effect as germany is to attack belguim by a DOW in a very late impulse, hoping for the turn to end then to gain initiative in the next turn and ooze into all of belguim before france or the CW can react and advance to give the allies more breathing space in front of paris.

It doesn't always work but can save a lot of attacks and speed up the conquest of france.

Anyone else have any views on this?




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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 6/25/2007 11:30:11 PM   
composer99


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I was on the French end of that tactic once. From my view, it is devastatingly effective if it works. If it doesn't, then you probably haven't lost out much.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 6/25/2007 11:35:05 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 6/25/2007 11:51:05 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

I guess this thread has been dorment for a while if thats for a good reason then no problem.

One tactic that I've seen and used to good effect as germany is to attack belguim by a DOW in a very late impulse, hoping for the turn to end then to gain initiative in the next turn and ooze into all of belguim before france or the CW can react and advance to give the allies more breathing space in front of paris.

It doesn't always work but can save a lot of attacks and speed up the conquest of france.

Anyone else have any views on this?

Indeed, this all boils down to the ability of the AI to play with what we call "flip-flops" in France, that is ending the turn, and starting the next.
Odds of this happening can be calculated easily by the AI I think.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 6/26/2007 3:07:43 PM   
dale1066


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Reckon it could be done against a USSR with a stuffed border, assuming good chit draws or a miscalculation on the part of the bear?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 6/26/2007 6:38:12 PM   
composer99


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The Germans getting a "double move" (the last impulse in one turn, the first impulse in the next) on the USSR is a frightening thing (for the USSR) in general. If it could be arranged such that the Germans get their "double move" when launching Barbarossa against a stuffed border, I am sure I would not want to be the Soviets.

What you describe is difficult to arrange, and certainly unlikely, but to be sure it is well within the realms of possibility.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/5/2007 1:05:08 AM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

If one is really gambling as an Italian player, at a time where the CW fleet is committed elsewhere, the 3-range SCS+the 2 TRS could be moved to the Bay of Biscay and then in the next impulse returned to base in Germany. And 4 2-range SCS (perhaps some BBs) could be moved to to Mogador. Very high risk, though - to unlikey to succes imho.



What about a DoW on Portugal and then immediately invading to obtain a port to rebase to?

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/5/2007 9:51:14 AM   
Froonp


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Remember that Portugal get a new unit now with the revised MiF countersheet. A (3-1) 1934 GARR.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/6/2007 2:32:03 AM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Remember that Portugal get a new unit now with the revised MiF countersheet. A (3-1) 1934 GARR.

Drat

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/9/2007 6:53:22 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Remember that Portugal get a new unit now with the revised MiF countersheet. A (3-1) 1934 GARR.

I just realized that the MiF GAR doesn't get set up when the Axis DoWs Portugal:

19.4 ...You don’t set up any units from Planes in Flames or Mech in Flames.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/9/2007 7:11:28 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Remember that Portugal get a new unit now with the revised MiF countersheet. A (3-1) 1934 GARR.

I just realized that the MiF GAR doesn't get set up when the Axis DoWs Portugal:

19.4 ...You don’t set up any units from Planes in Flames or Mech in Flames.

This sentence was for the old 1993 countersheet, because of all the extra counters that existed for many minor country. It was also there because the 1993 counters were outdated for WiF FE which is from 1996.
The new countersheet counters are from 2007, and the rulebook is from 2004, thus not reflecting the change yet, but believe me, those units are included in setup, because they were put on the countersheet exactly for this purpose.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/9/2007 11:20:35 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The new countersheet counters are from 2007, and the rulebook is from 2004, thus not reflecting the change yet, but believe me, those units are included in setup, because they were put on the countersheet exactly for this purpose.

Are there more current rules somewhere that clear this up? I thought the RaW on ADG's site were official, but if more current information is availabe, could you help me obtain it Patrice? Our current game is using WiFFE Deluxe from three years ago, concurrent with the most recent RaW, but apparently not with the latest MiF counter sheet, so the GAR in question isn't included anyway. Still, knowing the latest addenda is always nice.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/9/2007 11:30:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The new countersheet counters are from 2007, and the rulebook is from 2004, thus not reflecting the change yet, but believe me, those units are included in setup, because they were put on the countersheet exactly for this purpose.

Are there more current rules somewhere that clear this up? I thought the RaW on ADG's site were official, but if more current information is availabe, could you help me obtain it Patrice? Our current game is using WiFFE Deluxe from three years ago, concurrent with the most recent RaW, but apparently not with the latest MiF counter sheet, so the GAR in question isn't included anyway. Still, knowing the latest addenda is always nice.


Now there is a phrase that strikes fear into the heart of Wiffers.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/10/2007 11:00:11 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The new countersheet counters are from 2007, and the rulebook is from 2004, thus not reflecting the change yet, but believe me, those units are included in setup, because they were put on the countersheet exactly for this purpose.

Are there more current rules somewhere that clear this up? I thought the RaW on ADG's site were official, but if more current information is availabe, could you help me obtain it Patrice? Our current game is using WiFFE Deluxe from three years ago, concurrent with the most recent RaW, but apparently not with the latest MiF counter sheet, so the GAR in question isn't included anyway. Still, knowing the latest addenda is always nice.

There is no more recent copy of RAW than the one at ADG website.
But the new countersheet 23 got rid of all the counters that were subject to the rule you cited, and as the intend of the addition of the Portuguese GARR is to have it on DoW so that the conquest of Portugal is no more a walk in the park, so why I think that RAW will be updated in the future to show this and why I'm telling you that this GARR is included in setup.
Anyway, you're free to play the way you want and not follow anyone's hint.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/10/2007 1:30:07 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Anyway, you're free to play the way you want and not follow anyone's hint.

I take your word for it. If I had the GAR we would use it, but given the fact that I don't, I'm afraid it's good bye Portugal in early '42.

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Post #: 111
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/10/2007 2:20:27 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Anyway, you're free to play the way you want and not follow anyone's hint.

I take your word for it. If I had the GAR we would use it, but given the fact that I don't, I'm afraid it's good bye Portugal in early '42.

Sure

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/20/2007 11:50:16 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Here's something that I am sure everyone can agree on.

I have finally gotten around to typing in my notes for the German AIO (made during my travels in Europe). These are an amalgamation of ideas from different forum readers, though more than half of this is taken from Patrice's long and excellent post.

For now, I just want to see if you think this list of 12 strategic plans for Germany is sufficient/complete. There are other issues concerning the Balkans and Scandinavia that are not included at this time. Please try to keep your comments focused on:
- the 4 main targets (plus Poland),
- which choice to make for each of the 4 targets,
- the sequence in which they are attacked,
- and the timing of the attacks.

There are some notes about the objectives for the attacks on each target. If you have advice on how to expand those, I would love to hear it.

Try to stay away from too many details though. I think of this as the discussion between the Axis players before the game starts, where all 3 of them agree on what Germany is going to be doing. That is crucial information for Italy and Japan making their own decisions. Paint the picture with broad strokes.

I have a lot of additional questions to ask about this, (and I will in future posts), but for now let's see if we can lay out the main choices for the German strategic plans.
=======
1.1.7.1 Strategic plans
Germany is an offensive major power at the start of the game. It needs to be aggressive and to take actions. In 1942+, it will gradually shift to the defensive, and be forced to react to Allied decisions and campaigns. Italian strategic plans are very dependent on which strategic plan Germany chooses.

There are 4 main targets of conquest for Germany: France, the USSR, United Kingdom, and the Mediterranean. To get to the USSR, Germany first has to go through Poland. To close the Mediterranean, the EuroAxis first has to go through Spain in order to capture Gibraltar. Germany’s main choices are:

Poland - Attack in 1939 or 1940.
France - Attack in 1939, 1940, or not at all.
USSR - Attack in 1940, 1941, 1942 (Barbarossa), or not at all. The Barbarossa objective can be for total conquest or just a devastating blow to prevent or delay the USSR counteroffensive.
United Kingdom - Invade (Sealion) without closing the Mediterranean, after closing the Mediterranean, or conduct only submarine and strategic bombing campaigns. The Sealion objective can be for total conquest or to cripple the United Kingdom as an offensive threat.
Mediterranean - Close the Mediterranean, conduct offensive operations in north Africa, Greece, and Mediterranean islands (e.g., Malta), or concede the Mediterranean to the Allies.

The strategic plans listed below are various combinations of these main choices. The timing and order of which countries are attacked is a major consideration too.

Strategic Plan #1 Poland, France, then Barbarossa and North Africa (Historical)
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 France and Lowlands
∙ 1941 Barbarossa
∙ 1941 North Africa, Greece, and Malta: led by the Italians with some German support.

Strategic Plan #2 Poland, France, then massive Italian support for Barbarossa
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 France and Lowlands
∙ 1941 Barbarossa with massive Italian support (kitchen sink)
∙ No Mediterranean campaign

Strategic Plan #3 Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Barbarossa option
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 France and Lowlands
∙ 1941 Spain
∙ 1941 Gibraltar
∙ 1941 Close the Mediterranean: this requires taking and holding both Gibraltar and Suez.
∙ 1942 Barbarossa: with the objective of pushing the USSR as far as possible, and destroying as much the USSR army as possible to hamper its return in 1943/1944. Alternatively, USSR sitzkrieg

Strategic Plan #4 Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1940 France and Lowlands
∙ 1941 Spain
∙ 1941 Gibraltar
∙ 1941 Close the Mediterranean: this requires taking and holding both Gibraltar and Suez; the objective is to secure Italy and have the Italian fleet help against the UK.
∙ 1942 Sealion: with the objective of knocking out the UK, or damaging her so badly that it is so weak (i.e., conquering the southern plains up to Manchester), it plays little or no role as a member of the Allied counterattack.
∙ 1942 USSR sitzkrieg

Strategic Plan #5 Poland, France, Sealion, then Barbarossa
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1940 France and Lowlands
∙ 1941 Sealion
∙ 1942 Barbarossa or USSR sitzkrieg

Strategic Plan #6 France, Close the Mediterranean, then Barbarossa option
∙ 1939 France and Lowlands: if France doesn't fall early, the Axis is in trouble.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 - 1941 Spain
∙ 1940 - 1941 Gibraltar
∙ 1940 - 1941 Close the Mediterranean: this requires taking and holding both Gibraltar and Suez.
∙ 1942 Barbarossa or USSR sitzkrieg

Strategic Plan #7 France, Sealion, then Barbarossa option
∙ 1939 France and Lowlands: if France doesn't fall early, the Axis is in trouble.
∙ 1940 - 1941 Sealion
∙ 1942 Barbarossa or USSR sitzkrieg

Strategic Plan #8 France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
∙ 1939 France and Lowlands: if France doesn't fall early, the Axis is in trouble.
∙ 1940 - 1941 Spain
∙ 1940 - 1941 Gibraltar
∙ 1940 - 1941 Close the Mediterranean: this requires taking and holding both Gibraltar and Suez; the objective is to secure Italy and have the Italian fleet help against the UK.
∙ 1942 Sealion
∙ USSR sitzkrieg

Strategic Plan #9 France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
∙ 1939 France and Lowlands: if France doesn't fall early, the Axis is in trouble; as soon as France falls, the Wehrmacht turns eastwards, to defeat the Poles as soon as possible and be ready for Barbarossa in 1940.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 Poland
∙ 1940 Barbarossa
∙ 1940 North Africa, Greece, and Malta: led by the Italians with some German support.

Strategic Plan #10 France, then Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
∙ 1939 France and Lowlands: if France doesn't fall early, the Axis is in trouble; as soon as France falls, the Wehrmacht turns eastwards, to defeat the Poles as soon as possible and be ready for Barbarossa in 1940.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 Poland
∙ 1940 Barbarossa with massive Italian support (kitchen sink)
∙ No Mediterranean campaign

Strategic Plan #11 Immediate Barbarossa
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ France sitzkrieg: Germany takes a purely defensive position against France, which becomes a fearsome opponent in 1943-1945.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 Barbarossa
∙ 1940 North Africa, Greece, and Malta: led by the Italians with some German support.

Strategic Plan #12 Immediate Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ France sitzkrieg: Germany takes a purely defensive position against France, which becomes a fearsome opponent in 1943-1945.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 Barbarossa with massive Italian support (kitchen sink)
∙ No Mediterranean campaign
=======================

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 113
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/20/2007 11:59:27 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here's something that I am sure everyone can agree on.

I have finally gotten around to typing in my notes for the German AIO (made during my travels in Europe).

Do you realize that travelling with this kind of war preparation documents, and being caught by the USA's customs, could have made you visit Cuba sooner than you would have wished ???
quote:

These are an amalgamation of ideas from different forum readers, though more than half of this is taken from Patrice's long and excellent post.

I had just finished in 2005 a game where I had been VERY successful as the German, plus I have often gamed with people that I'd rate as most excellent German players, so I was in the right mood for that.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 114
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/21/2007 12:39:01 AM   
coregames


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I don't see an early Yugoslavia here. If that's in the cause of greater simplicity for the AIO, I understand.

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 115
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/21/2007 1:03:54 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

I don't see an early Yugoslavia here. If that's in the cause of greater simplicity for the AIO, I understand.

Because of that ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
There are other issues concerning the Balkans and Scandinavia that are not included at this time. Please try to keep your comments focused on:


(in reply to coregames)
Post #: 116
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/21/2007 1:10:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

I don't see an early Yugoslavia here. If that's in the cause of greater simplicity for the AIO, I understand.

I have set the Balkan and Scandinaivan decisions aside at this point. My focus is on the 4 big targets; I only included Poland reluctantly in this list. Within each strategic plan I expect to have side decisions concerning all the Balkan and Scandianvian countries as well as the different aspects of the conquests in the Mediterranean (e.g., Malta, Suez, Tripoli, Gibraltar, Syria, etc.).

My concept is that Germany chooses one of these 12 strategic plans. There are then secondary decisions about other conquests (e.g. Yugoslavia) which can be made within the context of the chosen strategic plan. That will simplify the list of secondary alternatives. I am particularly hopeful of simplifying the decision making process in the Balkans. Knowing whether the Mediteranean is to be closed, conceded to the Allies, or somewhere in between will simplify the decision making process for dealing with Malta, Gibraltar, Sardinia, Greece, and the like.

Somewhere along the way I would like to keep the Allied player (human) in the dark about which strategic plan Germany has chosen. However, as Christopher has pointed out previously, the decison to go for Sealion requires certain production priorities for both Germany and Italy. If possible, I will try to have branching logic within each strategic plan where it is abandoned for one reason or another and an alternative strategic plan chosen.

There is still a need to create defensive strategic plans for Germany (1943 - 1945) to provide for the possibility that things don't go swimmingly. That is a problem for another day.

For the AIO to play WIF well, it has to get the offensive strategic plans for Germany right at the macro level. Is this set of 12 correct? Or can it be simplified/improved/expanded?

EDITS: typos.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 7/21/2007 1:13:29 AM >


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Post #: 117
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/21/2007 5:16:56 AM   
Zorachus99


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To reduce the risk of new players thinking your AI is insane ;) , I'd put the most risky strategies in a special group and reduce their chance of selection.

Secondly, there are a few strategies that I use which are curveball Barbarossa strategies which all have nice trade-offs.

I often conquest Poland, Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Belgium, France and do a Russia in '41 ignoring Greece in that order. There is a net resource gain if you can keep your timetable on track.

Another flavor is to Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France and do a Russia in '41 in hurry up mode by ignoring potential US entry because of '39 DOW's. Attack France in the snow of 39/40. With a judicious offensive chit during winter, France can fall very early with moderate to good axis luck.

A final flavor I enjoy is a US Entry oriented Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France and do a Russia in '41. Leave Italy Neutral or allow her to be dow'ed by the allies often can allow a judicious axis a vicious attack on Russia with the US and the lease to Russia in poor shape.

These are all subvariants I use on the historical gambit. They all have the side benefit of not being extremely risky, but shape the game differently.

I know you wanted us to remark on your 12 strategies, and while all of them are interesting, some are such high risk that you chance early allied victory. On the other hand, if the high risk stategies work, new inexperienced player is going to be humbled by some wild, non-historical attack and feel the game doesn't reflect WWII at all.

Perhaps there is a way to keep track of the ?rating? of a player? Wins and losses or some such? You want the AI to become more interesting like wine over time, rather then be shocked and left with a bitter aftertaste.

< Message edited by Zorachus99 -- 7/21/2007 5:20:00 AM >


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Post #: 118
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/21/2007 6:19:59 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 17933
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
To reduce the risk of new players thinking your AI is insane ;) , I'd put the most risky strategies in a special group and reduce their chance of selection.

Secondly, there are a few strategies that I use which are curveball Barbarossa strategies which all have nice trade-offs.

I often conquest Poland, Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Belgium, France and do a Russia in '41 ignoring Greece in that order. There is a net resource gain if you can keep your timetable on track.

Another flavor is to Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France and do a Russia in '41 in hurry up mode by ignoring potential US entry because of '39 DOW's. Attack France in the snow of 39/40. With a judicious offensive chit during winter, France can fall very early with moderate to good axis luck.

A final flavor I enjoy is a US Entry oriented Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France and do a Russia in '41. Leave Italy Neutral or allow her to be dow'ed by the allies often can allow a judicious axis a vicious attack on Russia with the US and the lease to Russia in poor shape.

These are all subvariants I use on the historical gambit. They all have the side benefit of not being extremely risky, but shape the game differently.

I know you wanted us to remark on your 12 strategies, and while all of them are interesting, some are such high risk that you chance early allied victory. On the other hand, if the high risk stategies work, new inexperienced player is going to be humbled by some wild, non-historical attack and feel the game doesn't reflect WWII at all.

Perhaps there is a way to keep track of the ?rating? of a player? Wins and losses or some such? You want the AI to become more interesting like wine over time, rather then be shocked and left with a bitter aftertaste.

First I want the AIO to play well. Disabling it by limiting its choices is a task I hope someday to have to do because it is too difficult an opponent.

It has been my experience that if an AI opponent is too strong, the players take the other side and try the AI's strategies/tactics against it, just to see what defenses the AIO uses against it owns strategies/tactics.

For learning purposes, limiting the optional rules selected can simplify the game enormously, and let the WIF beginner have a better chance of success. And there are dozens of easy ways to dumb down the AIO if it comes to that. Typically, a game provides various 'settings' for the strength of the AIO. I expect MWIF to do likewise. That's not a big concern of mine right now. My focus is totally on making the AIO as strong as possible - without any 'cheats'.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 119
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - 7/21/2007 11:42:14 AM   
wosung

 

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quote:

Strategic Plan #11 Immediate Barbarossa
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ France sitzkrieg: Germany takes a purely defensive position against France, which becomes a fearsome opponent in 1943-1945.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 Barbarossa
∙ 1940 North Africa, Greece, and Malta: led by the Italians with some German support.

Strategic Plan #12 Immediate Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
∙ 1939 Poland
∙ 1939+ France sitzkrieg: Germany takes a purely defensive position against France, which becomes a fearsome opponent in 1943-1945.
∙ 1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns
∙ 1940 Barbarossa with massive Italian support (kitchen sink)
∙ No Mediterranean campaign
=======================


Just a detail: without (planned) operational bases in France or Norway (Atlantic access, air ranges) "1939+ United Kingdom submarine and strategic bombing campaigns" may be so futile, that GER AIO probably shouldn't invest in new U-Boats and strategic bombers.

To put it more clearly: Without France, no stangling UK.

Regards

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 120
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