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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/21/2009 8:45:20 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Convoy Plan 4 (or Route 4) is a viable option.

Assuming that Poland has fallen. You don’t need ships in the Baltic.

If Germany can get the USSR players permission to rail the Swedish resources through the USSR.

Do you believe that Germany can get USSR permission to rail swedish ore through USSR ?




Given the right set of circumstances and players.

Yes.

Humm, they are enemies, and in MWiF there is no DoD, so USSR is always on the same side as the western allies, and always an enemy side of the Axis.
Sound unlikely, unless you're playing Fantasy WiF, and MWiF is not fantasy WiF.
As someone else also said, I don't believe that MWiF even have a feature enabling Germany to ask USSR's permission to ship minor country resources through its country.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 331
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 12:21:30 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Convoy Plan 4 (or Route 4) is a viable option.

Assuming that Poland has fallen. You don’t need ships in the Baltic.

If Germany can get the USSR players permission to rail the Swedish resources through the USSR.

Do you believe that Germany can get USSR permission to rail swedish ore through USSR ?




Given the right set of circumstances and players.

Yes.

Humm, they are enemies, and in MWiF there is no DoD, so USSR is always on the same side as the western allies, and always an enemy side of the Axis.
Sound unlikely, unless you're playing Fantasy WiF, and MWiF is not fantasy WiF.
As someone else also said, I don't believe that MWiF even have a feature enabling Germany to ask USSR's permission to ship minor country resources through its country.

Correct.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 332
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 3:54:26 AM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL:  Froonp

Humm, they are enemies, and in MWiF there is no DoD, so USSR is always on the same side as the western allies, and always an enemy side of the Axis.
Sound unlikely, unless you're playing Fantasy WiF, and MWiF is not fantasy WiF.
As someone else also said, I don't believe that MWiF even have a feature enabling Germany to ask USSR's permission to ship minor country resources through its country.




Fantasy WiF?

Here are just two examples.

In all World in Flames scenarios that start after Jul/Aug 1939 and before Jul/Aug 1941, the USSR and Germany have a neutrality pact in place as part of the Nazi-Soviet pact (see 19.5).


Given that the USSR could exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland.

Given that Japan could have DOW the USSR.

The USSR might want to stave off an early invasion by Germany by allowing passage of Swedish resources.


OR

I have 2 friends that always assist each other in any game.




And I thought French was the language of diplomacy.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Things requiring permission.

You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any Hex controlled by:

that major power and its aligned minors; or
another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
a major power or minor country it is at war with.

There are some exceptions:

Units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.



Transporting resources by rail

The move can only pass through hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 333
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 8:58:49 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Froonp

Humm, they are enemies, and in MWiF there is no DoD, so USSR is always on the same side as the western allies, and always an enemy side of the Axis.
Sound unlikely, unless you're playing Fantasy WiF, and MWiF is not fantasy WiF.
As someone else also said, I don't believe that MWiF even have a feature enabling Germany to ask USSR's permission to ship minor country resources through its country.




Fantasy WiF?

Here are just two examples.

In all World in Flames scenarios that start after Jul/Aug 1939 and before Jul/Aug 1941, the USSR and Germany have a neutrality pact in place as part of the Nazi-Soviet pact (see 19.5).


Given that the USSR could exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland.

Given that Japan could have DOW the USSR.

The USSR might want to stave off an early invasion by Germany by allowing passage of Swedish resources.


OR

I have 2 friends that always assist each other in any game.




And I thought French was the language of diplomacy.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Things requiring permission.

You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any Hex controlled by:

that major power and its aligned minors; or
another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
a major power or minor country it is at war with.

There are some exceptions:

Units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.



Transporting resources by rail

The move can only pass through hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.


Warspite1

It may be just the way things have been phrased in the last few posts or I may be mis-understanding the point, but to clarify:

Regardless of who is playing and their particular preferences; Under the rules of WIF, is the German player allowed to rail resources through the Soviet Union or not?

I never played the Final Edition but under the 5th Edition, I don`t think this was a possibility (unless of course we played the rule wrong!).




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 334
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 1:26:34 PM   
SewerStarFish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite
It may be just the way things have been phrased in the last few posts or I may be mis-understanding the point, but to clarify:

Regardless of who is playing and their particular preferences; Under the rules of WIF, is the German player allowed to rail resources through the Soviet Union or not?

I never played the Final Edition but under the 5th Edition, I don`t think this was a possibility (unless of course we played the rule wrong!).


Some of us might be confusing our wargames here, or at least our editions.
1) Can resources be transfered across neutral hexes regardless of future hosilities? or is it 2) Can resources always be transfered across neutral minor hexes but neutral major hexes require permission?

_____________________________

Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 335
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 2:04:08 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite
It may be just the way things have been phrased in the last few posts or I may be mis-understanding the point, but to clarify:

Regardless of who is playing and their particular preferences; Under the rules of WIF, is the German player allowed to rail resources through the Soviet Union or not?

I never played the Final Edition but under the 5th Edition, I don`t think this was a possibility (unless of course we played the rule wrong!).


Some of us might be confusing our wargames here, or at least our editions.
1) Can resources be transfered across neutral hexes regardless of future hosilities? or is it 2) Can resources always be transfered across neutral minor hexes but neutral major hexes require permission?

It is 2)

From RAW 13.6.1 :
************************
Transporting resources by rail

You transport a resource to a factory in the production step by railing it from its hex to a usable factory. It must move along railway lines (roads count as railways for this purpose). It can also cross a straits hexside from one railway hex to another. Each resource cannot cross more than 1 straits hexsides.

This move does not count as a rail move and the resource does not have to start its move at a station.

The move can only pass through:
ï hexes you control;
ï hexes in neutral minor countries; and
ï hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.

Allied major powers (except the USSR) may only trace resources through Soviet controlled hexes while the USSR is at war with Germany.

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A resource can’t be transported across a straits if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area (see 2.4.2).
************************



< Message edited by Froonp -- 8/22/2009 2:05:03 PM >

(in reply to SewerStarFish)
Post #: 336
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 2:17:50 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite
It may be just the way things have been phrased in the last few posts or I may be mis-understanding the point, but to clarify:

Regardless of who is playing and their particular preferences; Under the rules of WIF, is the German player allowed to rail resources through the Soviet Union or not?

I never played the Final Edition but under the 5th Edition, I don`t think this was a possibility (unless of course we played the rule wrong!).


Some of us might be confusing our wargames here, or at least our editions.
1) Can resources be transfered across neutral hexes regardless of future hosilities? or is it 2) Can resources always be transfered across neutral minor hexes but neutral major hexes require permission?

It is 2)

From RAW 13.6.1 :
************************
Transporting resources by rail

You transport a resource to a factory in the production step by railing it from its hex to a usable factory. It must move along railway lines (roads count as railways for this purpose). It can also cross a straits hexside from one railway hex to another. Each resource cannot cross more than 1 straits hexsides.

This move does not count as a rail move and the resource does not have to start its move at a station.

The move can only pass through:
ï hexes you control;
ï hexes in neutral minor countries; and
ï hexes controlled by another major power, but only if it allows you.

Allied major powers (except the USSR) may only trace resources through Soviet controlled hexes while the USSR is at war with Germany.

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

Option 12: (limited access across straits) A resource can’t be transported across a straits if the presence of enemy units would prevent you tracing an overseas supply path into that sea area (see 2.4.2).
************************


Warspite1

Okay - I think I`m clear? RAW for WIF allows the transportation through Soviet controlled hexes (If the Soviet player allows the German to do so) BUT this is not possible in MWIF (as per Steve`s response)?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 337
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 2:18:22 PM   
morgil


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If USSR haven't set up for DOWing Finland, there is no need for the 4th convoy.
If you are planning a Naval later in the turn, to do whatever, you set up 0, example of this would be USSR heavily on Finnish borders, where you allow the claim, and ship a Gar to Helsinki ASAP.
/Duh
Too slow to cut paste Raw
/Unduh
However, in the world that I live in, the USSR would not allow German to transport resources for free, 33% toll on the transported resources, or one BP worth of refined Steel coming back to Moskva, would be a minimum.


< Message edited by morgil -- 8/22/2009 2:30:20 PM >


_____________________________

Gott weiss ich will kein Engel sein.

(in reply to SewerStarFish)
Post #: 338
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 2:30:29 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Okay - I think I`m clear? RAW for WIF allows the transportation through Soviet controlled hexes (If the Soviet player allows the German to do so) BUT this is not possible in MWIF (as per Steve`s response)?


That's it.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 339
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 2:34:45 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil
However, in the world that I live in, the USSR would not allow German to transport resources for free, 33% toll on the transported resources, or one BP worth of refined Steel coming back to Moskva, would be a minimum.


Same for me.

(in reply to morgil)
Post #: 340
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/22/2009 9:09:16 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

However, in the world that I live in, the USSR would not allow German to transport resources for free, 33% toll on the transported resources, or one BP worth of refined Steel coming back to Moskva, would be a minimum.



That’s very diplomatic of you lets negotiate a new trade agreement.


Sorry, the USSR is a neutral major power (or if the USSR is at war with Japan it is on the wrong side) and cannot negotiate another trade agreement at this time.

quote:


USSR and Germany start the 1939 scenario with a trade agreement in place to exchange German build points for Soviet resources.

In each turn, Germany must lend lease 2 build points to the USSR while the USSR must supply Germany with 7 resources (2 of them must be oil).



Could I interest you in land concessions in the Balkans or the Finnish border lands instead? (See 19.6 Soviet border rectification)



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 341
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/24/2009 10:46:03 AM   
morgil


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Could you please enlighten me as to where in the "World in Flames (WiF) Final Edition rules v. 7m (Aug 2004" it is specified that neutral major powers, or indeed powers off opposing sides, can not negotiate a trade agreement ? Or maybe the part where you can only have one trade agreement at the time ?

While you are looking, could you please take your juvenile attempts of wit and sarcasm and stick 'em where the sun don't shine ?
(I believe this is somewhere in Kansas)


_____________________________

Gott weiss ich will kein Engel sein.

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 342
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/24/2009 5:03:14 PM   
sajbalk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Could you please enlighten me as to where in the "World in Flames (WiF) Final Edition rules v. 7m (Aug 2004" it is specified that neutral major powers, or indeed powers off opposing sides, can not negotiate a trade agreement ? Or maybe the part where you can only have one trade agreement at the time ?



You can only set up new trade agreements with Major Powers as a result of a Mutual Peace (13.7.3). This implies having gone to war with each other. Otherwise, you cannot trasport resources through a neutral Major Power's territory unless that MP allows you to (13.6.1).

House rules are an entirely different game, but I think RAW is clear on this part.



_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to morgil)
Post #: 343
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/24/2009 8:06:35 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Could you please enlighten me as to where in the "World in Flames (WiF) Final Edition rules v. 7m (Aug 2004" it is specified that neutral major powers, or indeed powers off opposing sides, can not negotiate a trade agreement ? Or maybe the part where you can only have one trade agreement at the time ?



You can only set up new trade agreements with Major Powers as a result of a Mutual Peace (13.7.3). This implies having gone to war with each other. Otherwise, you cannot trasport resources through a neutral Major Power's territory unless that MP allows you to (13.6.1).

House rules are an entirely different game, but I think RAW is clear on this part.

You can also set up new trade agreements with Major Powers as a result of a neutrality pact.

From the FAQ :
*****************************
Q5.1-6
Q1 : If Russia and Japan sign a neutrality pact can they negotiate a trade agreement (say Russia gives Japan 2 oil for 1 BP)?
Q2 : If the CW and Italy (before they are at war) sign a neutrality pact, that they can also sign a trade agreement along with it?

Q1 : Yes.
Q2 : Yes. Date 07/03/2008
*****************************

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 344
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/27/2009 4:36:12 PM   
brian brian

 

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so Germany is going to need something akin to the convoy set-up percentages for it's Balkan policy, but that might already be done in the strategic document. ? The choices there are naturally somewhat Byzantine.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 345
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/21/2010 5:01:12 PM   
composer99


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I don't think this has come up in this thread before (having reviewed it yesterday), but it may have.

Nevertheless, it is worth mentioning that if Germany is going to perform a Sealion or Mediterranean strategy, it should take care that it can continue to hold the pact against the USSR through 1941.

The only thing that might hold the USSR back is the US entry cost, but the German AI can safely assume if it grossly neglects is eastern frontier that the USSR will enjoy snapping up East Prussia and Poland and picking up some early GBAs and sharply reducing German production. It would even be worth the multiple bump Germany would get for East Prussia.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 346
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/21/2010 5:55:29 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I don't think this has come up in this thread before (having reviewed it yesterday), but it may have.

Nevertheless, it is worth mentioning that if Germany is going to perform a Sealion or Mediterranean strategy, it should take care that it can continue to hold the pact against the USSR through 1941.

The only thing that might hold the USSR back is the US entry cost, but the German AI can safely assume if it grossly neglects is eastern frontier that the USSR will enjoy snapping up East Prussia and Poland and picking up some early GBAs and sharply reducing German production. It would even be worth the multiple bump Germany would get for East Prussia.

Very right.

I just had a French player that told me that story of a game in progress, where he as the Russian DoWed Germany in M/J 41.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 347
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/21/2010 6:28:35 PM   
micheljq


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My last game the Axis was going for Gibraltal in 1941 and committed it's best troops in Spain. Spain is not easy to take, the Commonwealth can send troops and there is a lot of mountains. By the beginning of 1942, the USSR had good chits and was able to DOW Germany.

My current game the Axis is again going for the "cut the med" strategy and is fighting in Spain, progress is slow, he entered Spain in SO1940 and by the beginning of MA1941, Madrid is still holding. Germany begins to commit more troops in Poland to hold the soviets at bay, and aligned Bulgaria and Hungary to help for the garrison ratio with USSR. France, Belgium, and Netherlands are free of garrisons and the partisans have a happy hunting ground there. This is not easy for Axis.

_____________________________

Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 348
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 4/21/2010 8:03:20 PM   
composer99


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The key for Germany is it still wants to commit as little as possible to save units for its offensive operations and of course, other garrison requirements. If the 1941 campaign succeeds, then a '42 Barb is hopefully in the works.

Assuming you can double all your unit garrison value with chits in 1941 (not unreasonable when drawing 2 chits/turn for the pact), the USSR needs 4 points of garrison (unit + chit) for each point of unit garrison you have on the border.

I know various calculations have been done, assuming the USSR builds for maximum garrison value, and posted here on the fora of what USSR garrison will be at any given moment. But I am too lazy (and too at work) to spend the time to look them up.

So I will hazard a guess that as Germany you will want a unit garrison value of approximately 20 at the start of 1941. With your chits, your garrison is 40, requiring a USSR garrison of 80 to break. I don't think, even with the most aggressive build plan, that the USSR can manage this, not even if they go to war with Japan to build out their MIL, by Jan/Feb 1941.

If you are playing with city-based volunteers the SS volunteer units from Austria, Paris & Netherlands will make life much easier (6 garrison between them). Figure 8-10 more INF/MIL/GARR from the set-up and reserve units. The rest can be made up with either minor country units (if you decide to resolve Yugo in winter 39-40 or the fall of 1940) or more GARR/MIL or even spare pilots put in your reserve planes. Outside of the southern plains, ARM and MECH units are not much use in the UK and can also be spared for Polish garrison duty.

Figure adding 1-2 garrison points per turn and the USSR should be stymied while you are on the offensive.

As Michel points out, this can be a big drain on all your other secondary commitments (anti-partisan garrison in particular).

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 349
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/2/2011 11:40:09 PM   
brian brian

 

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OK so I have been cleaning up my laptop lately and found this file, something I posted to the Yahoo list a few years ago. A few of you may have read it there, but the majority probably not. Plus, I noticed there was no other way to reach the German AI thread than through Extraneous' kindly compiled list of links, so it is due to be bumped. It's a long read, but I hope you enjoy:




Last year I found quite an interesting book for players of World in Flames - “Third Reich Victorious - Alternate Decisions of World War II” (Peter G. Tsouras, ed., Greenhill Books, London, 2002). This quick reading volume contains ten alternate scenarios that detail ways that perhaps Germany could have won the war; the first includes Hitler’s quote “we shall drag a world with us ... a world in flames,” and I was immediately intrigued. The publisher has a number of alternate history titles from Napoleon to WWII, including another volume I’d like to read featuring ways Japan might have won. (I guess Italy remains doomed regardless). Anyhow I thought it might be an interesting break from debating rules arcanum in the Australian language to consider these ten scenarios and whether they would work in WiF (in my ever so humble opinions). Since I like the first one best I will leave that for last and summarize them in reverse order.

#10 - “Rommel versus Zhukov” - This one is basically the epilogue to Mr. Tsouras’ complete volume from this publisher about Rommel winning D-Day. Defeating the invasion so thoroughly, in fact, that the western Allies reach a separate peace with the Germans. Then the July 20th plot succeeds, Hitler is eliminated, and Rommel is put in charge. Without strategic bombing over Germany, the German economy roars back to life, and without Hitler’s “no retreat” orders at all levels, the Germans re-build a defense in depth in Poland and destroy the Red Army during the winter offensives in early 1945, leading to an armistice on the pre-Barbarossa line.

WiF applicability - First of all this could only happen in a triangular Wallied / Axis / Communist game as like the historical Allies, a separate peace is not really possible on the part of WiF players. Secondly, without a true system to track manpower losses during the war (and delaying force pool returns only begins to simulate these problems), WiF cardboard commanders will never feel the pressures of long-term war. The British and the Soviets were feeling these pressures by 1945 and that is what drives this scenario. Without the German army handicapped by Hitler’s strategic/operational/tactical rigidity, Soviet brute assault tactics may have led to their failure to conquer Eastern Europe, but in WiF, don’t worry, you can just build more.

#9 - “Hitler’s Bomb” - This is a simple one long considered by students of the war. Hitler gets the Bomb first and immediately uses them against London and Moscow. But he only has two bombs at first and Allied strategic bombing delays further production. And even in this alternate history he still loses the war when the US rushes their production timetable, skips testing their first bomb and drops it right on top of his bunker.

WiF applicability - I have not played a game of WiF that featured atom bomb drops. I guess in the ‘Race to be a Superpower’ scenario any Major Power could eventually get them but my un-played feeling is that initially they would not make a large military difference when only available in small quantities.

#8 - “Luftwaffe Triumphant” - Written by David C. Isby, a former editor of Strategy & Tactics who’s name I recalled fondly upon opening this book. This is perhaps the most well though-out scenario here, using counterfactual methodology to carefully explore the what-ifs, particularly with regard to organizational details of the German economy and operational Luftwaffe tactics. He also relies on the postwar writings of Luftwaffe general Adolf Galland, and of course a major change is that the Germans don’t waste time trying to make the Me-262 into a bomber. The Luftwaffe then fights the Wallied bombers to a stalemate, allowing the German army to resist on the ground until 1946, when 10 US nuclear strikes finally make the Nazis quit.

WiF applicability - This is not entirely uncommon in WiF - the CW and the US don’t invest in any LND-4’s and then all Allied ground forces can’t make forward progress as well. But given Japan’s egg-shell like nature and the ever increasing US production multiple, I don’t think the Germans could ever survive the rain of O-chits into summer 1946.

#7 - “Known Enemies and Forced Allies” - Kursk in reverse. Hitler wavers on his decision to commit at Kursk just long enough for Stalin to stick his head in first, against Zhukov’s advice. The Germans take out a year of Soviet tank production with a flexible defense-in-depth (thank God the real Hitler was so stupid). The Russians reach a separate peace, and Patton comes up against the II SS Panzer on the slopes of Mount Etna, saving Mussolini’s bacon and stalemating the war.

WiF applicability - Again only possible in the triangular game, where eventually at points one player could cry uncle, hoping to rebuild while the other two powers wear each other down. But anyone playing WiF can get frustrated watching the enemy side have all the fun and pick up the attack dice without truly being able to afford the consequences of several “magic 14s.”

#6 - “Into the Caucasus” - Another long-thought of scenario, at least among WiF players, though this one hasn’t been possible since the days of the “Coup Cell” rules. Turkey joins the Axis at the opening of Operation Blau in the summer of 1942, well before the Germans reach the Turkish border. The British try to help with a moderately large army in the Caucasus, but it’s too little too late as the Germans cut the Lend-Lease line through Persia and eventually seize all the oil they could ever want. A good amount of detail on internal Turkish politics, the state of the Turkish armed forces at the time, and how unlikely this actually was in reality.

WiF applicability - as mentioned, not exactly the same in WiF, and I have seen the Germans lose even after aligning Turkey via the current RaW method. The writer does stay true to the difficulties of the Foreign Troop Commitment and Cooperation rules. But I think this area of the map and the strategic possibilities therein are perhaps neglected by Axis players, or it is just a border too far to reach unless the ball bounces the Axis way several times against good Allied play.

#5 - “The Hinge” - Rommel wins at 1st Alamein, overrunning the polyglot Allied forces arriving seasick in Egypt, deploying Ramcke and the Folgore to seize the Nile Delta crossings, Market-Garden style, and eventually reaching Baghdad. Allied forces assembled for Operation Torch against Vichy Africa are diverted to Suez but it is too late, especially once Rommel captures the plans in Alexandria. Much of this is based on the dynamics of the various British generals calling the shots for Eighth Army; with so much focus on these and only the eastern Med theater that the aftereffects in the war are not considered.

WiF applicability - Every WiF player knows that the other door to the Mediterranean is the one that counts.

#4 - “The Storm and the Whirlwind” - Subtitled ‘Zhukov Strikes First’. Even moreso than scenario #10, the writings of Colonel David Glantz are a prime source here (though only one of several). Stalin accepts Zhukov’s idea for a pre-emptive war and attacks into Eastern Poland in the summer of 41. The Luftwaffe is in for a surprise when they have to destroy thousands of Soviet planes the harder way, in the air, rather than on the ground, but overall the Soviet attack goes as you think it would, and then the Germans launch theirs. Rommel is the star of the show, finding a Soviet military supply road through the Pripet marshes to appear at Gomel. The infantry clean up large Soviet pockets all over the steppes while the panzers seize the Russian urban centres.

WiF applicability - Once again WiF players know the realities better - the Russians don’t have any white-print counters yet, but STAVKA didn’t know this in 1941. The Russians breaking the pact in 1941 in WiF is probably a sucker move to achieve this outcome. I doubt many WiF players would be silly enough to try it until the computer game allows some fantasy role-playing without all that time required to sort out the counters.

#3 - “The Battle of Britain” - A fairly straightforward exploration of different decisions by the Luftwaffe. They take out the radar stations and destroy Fighter Command by relentlessly attacking their bases. There is no switch to terror bombing until there are no more Spitfires left to stop it, whereupon Lord Halifax takes over and the British surrender. Except Churchill of course, he sails for Canada.

WiF applicability - WiF also has no mechanism simulating a thought that lay heavy on political leaders in 1940 - the effects of terror bombing on civilian populations. Rotterdam chilled the hearts of many an Allied (and neutral) war planner. In WiF the Germans might half-heartedly launch a few strat bombing raids on London but I don’t think I’ve ever seen them try it Wallied style, with air impulses and HQ re-orgs. Perhaps that would be interesting to try but I doubt it could win the game on it’s own; most of the UK industrial base is out of normal range anyway.

#2 - “Disaster at Dunkirk” - This answers another long-held woulda coulda shoulda postulate of WWII. So much of the BEF is captured in France that the Germans launch their shoe-string SeaLion in the summer of 1940. Through an entertaining operational sequence, Manstein and Model are somewhat thwarted by Montgomery and scratch British forces. But the villain of the piece, Lord Halifax, appears and Churchill is forced to resort to storming Parliament with a company of Royal Marines, Cromwell style. The ensuing night gun battle takes out so many British political leaders that the survivors, again spooked by the loss of the RAF and what happened to Rotterdam, pack it in.

WiF applicability - Actually I think WiF understates the possible size of the BEF. A generic statistic of 200,000 British evacuees at Dunkirk (Time/Life’s WWII series) is all I have at hand right now, but 200K+ troops seems a lot more than two MOTs and an HQ-I. True you can get deeper into it in WiF if you choose but it isn’t easy nor timely; deploying the RAF over there is difficult too and overall it is rather uncommon to risk such a BEF. In WiF the Germans do have an option to invade the UK in 1940, but aside from a CW player becoming discouraged by some German success ashore and asking for a re-start (so I guess this scenario actually could happen on a table-top), I don’t see it winning the game.

#1 - “The Little Admiral” - Hitler does his WWI service in the Navy and becomes a life-long hater of all things Englisch. The Nazi party rebuilds the German armed forces, dedicating them to succeed in doing what no nation has done since 1066. (Goering is sensibly removed in the late 30s when he tries to keep the Luftwaffe from helping the Kriegsmarine and he ends up in a mine-clearing penal battalion). The schwerpunkt of a vigorous German naval construction program is a Pearl Harbor style blitz from 3 German CVs on Scapa Flow on Sept. 1, 1939, taking out two CVs and several Battleships. Carrier-borne Me-109s make short work of any Swordfish they encounter and U-Boats run wild (Germany has the upper techie hand, with class IXC U-boats early-on, naval radar and the Japanese Long Lance torpedo). Neutrals slowly open themselves to the Axis coalition. Continuing the aquatic Hitler fantasy, the Waffen-SS become the USMC complete with a snorkel tank brigade (an actual working German invention used successfully early in Barbarossa) and a parachute brigade. Worldwide naval combat steadily reduces the Royal Navy until the KM controls the Channel and the SS go in, soon encircling London, which holds out until Winnie dies on the barricades. Surprisingly, Lord Halifax is not called upon by name but Vichy England is formed anyway and Germany goes on to win the superpower race, dropping the Bomb on Moscow in 1945 and launching a long Cold War with the USA.

WiF applicability - This of course would call for a complete game starting with Days of Decision. Despite many play-throughs of DoD v 1.0, I can’t recall anyone trying this, though one time the nifty LS of my active Swedish ally were a big help during an eventual SeaLion. I would like to try this and perhaps it could work...the CW already must spend so much on their navy from 1936-1939 to achieve their normal starting Royal Navy force that it would seem hard for them to go much deeper into a naval arms race; then too a lot of German naval construction would make British Army construction more imperative than normal. It would also require playing Politics in Flames to get in-game political adjustments to get basing rights in Norway and other changes to the neutrals. WiF makes a port strike a bit too difficult already thanks to the sequence of play, and the German carrier planes, well, they sure aren’t like the red CV plane counters. On the other hand making the Me-109 and the Gladiator equal, air-to-air factor-wise, is rather charitable to the Royal Navy. Starting the game with a nice half-dozen SUBs would seem interesting for the Germans but after moving three sea areas to the Bay of Biscay they could never accomplish anything anyway; even a pro-Axis Norway would be only slight help in the WiF Atlantic Ocean, especially so with the latest U-boat factors on the 2007 SiF set. In real life the Allies learned the Battle of the Atlantic the hard way but we all know how the WiF cruiser armadas make this into something playable but somewhat far from real. No sane WiF player would send 200K troops to France when the Germans had an ARMored MARine unit (who wouldn’t build that in DoD?), or just 2 AMPHs, a couple extra TRS, and an uber-Kriegsmarine in the normal counter set. And finally, regarding all of the last three scenarios here, I think the recent WiFCon Table 4 game perhaps showed that defeating England alone is not the end of WWII.

So did I learn anything from this book? Should I have kept it to myself to torment my opponents? Well I am now interested to perhaps study up on early war British politics from a point of view other than Winston Churchill’s and learn more about this Lord Halifax chap. Although I enjoyed reading it, that was purely the result of my enjoyment of playing World in Flames as normally I would never read alternate history or even much ‘historical’ fiction; I’ll stick to Hemmingway, Kerouac, and Harrison, thank you very much. But it was a fascinating laboratory of possibilities both for parts of my game play and what WiF still can become in simulating WWII.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 350
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/3/2011 12:29:56 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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All the threads are accessible. What you have to do is change the Filter at the top of the forum. The default is the last 365 days. But you can set it to show all threads.

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Post #: 351
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/3/2011 1:53:14 AM   
paulderynck


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Brian, your intro to those was the best thing I've read here in months.

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Post #: 352
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - Tactical Thinking - 8/3/2011 2:39:35 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
#2 - “Disaster at Dunkirk” - This answers another long-held woulda coulda shoulda postulate of WWII. So much of the BEF is captured in France that the Germans launch their shoe-string SeaLion in the summer of 1940. Through an entertaining operational sequence, Manstein and Model are somewhat thwarted by Montgomery and scratch British forces. But the villain of the piece, Lord Halifax, appears and Churchill is forced to resort to storming Parliament with a company of Royal Marines, Cromwell style. The ensuing night gun battle takes out so many British political leaders that the survivors, again spooked by the loss of the RAF and what happened to Rotterdam, pack it in.

WiF applicability - Actually I think WiF understates the possible size of the BEF. A generic statistic of 200,000 British evacuees at Dunkirk (Time/Life’s WWII series) is all I have at hand right now, but 200K+ troops seems a lot more than two MOTs and an HQ-I. True you can get deeper into it in WiF if you choose but it isn’t easy nor timely; deploying the RAF over there is difficult too and overall it is rather uncommon to risk such a BEF. In WiF the Germans do have an option to invade the UK in 1940, but aside from a CW player becoming discouraged by some German success ashore and asking for a re-start (so I guess this scenario actually could happen on a table-top), I don’t see it winning the game.


Yes slightly “more than two MOTs and an HQ-I “.

British Expeditionary Force May, 1940

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Post #: 353
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 9/5/2011 11:49:02 AM   
Red Prince


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With all of the discussion about French surrender in the AI for MWiF - France thread, I was wondering about the German position that would result in a French Surrender. It would have to be pretty strong, indeed.

The logical next question is: Under what conditions should Germany consider conquest of France, instead of installing a Vichy government?

The reason I ask is that I'm working on a game in which Germany happened to take Lyons and Vichy before reaching either Lille or Paris. As in the AIO France thread, this looks like it would eventually lead to a French Surrender.

France had a very strong line at the Belgian border, but set up weak against Italy (in response to a weak Italian setup against France). Moving through Italy, the German MTN unit got across the border and with the help of ATR reorganization managed to get to Lyons. Vichy was taken on a Breakthrough result after the Maginot Line was broken during the previous turn, using an O-Chit (but the Belgian defense was still intact). Toulouse and Marseilles are defended by a single unit each right now, in early M/J '40.

In this situation, it seems Germany might want to consider conquering France . . . perhaps with the goal of attacking Spain immediately without having to collapse Vichy first. I don't know. I don't have enough experience to form a solid opinion.

-Aaron

Also in this game: Italy has conquered Syria (and aligned Iraq) and Tunisia, but is going to have trouble with Egypt. It is early in M/J '40 at the moment.



< Message edited by Red Prince -- 9/5/2011 11:53:00 AM >


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Post #: 354
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 9/5/2011 1:35:58 PM   
composer99


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Personally speaking, I think the only reason for Germany to conquer France rather than install a Vichy government is if they are going for a Med strategy and intend on invading Spain overland. Getting the extra hexes on the Spanish border is key for an overland Spanish invasion attempt.

When going for a Med strategy, having (Allied) France retain control of the North African minors is good because the Axis get to invade them and, once they control Morocco, help use it to cut off Allied supply to Gibraltar (also good for seizing Spanish Morocco quickly as well).

For a Barbarossa or Sealion strategy the Germans probably want to install Vichy France so that:
- the French fleet is mostly forced to remain in France and go Vichy (although in your case the Germans might have a shot at seizing the French ports).
- the number of Allied-controlled French minors is minimized, so the new French home country is probably somewhere irritating like Gabon instead of somewhere desireable such as Senegal or Morocco.
- the Allies have to engage in an additional diplomatic action (declare war on Vichy) to make progress in the Med, which ought to slow them down until the US gets in the war.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 9/5/2011 9:30:29 PM   
peskpesk


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Active strategic plans for Germany:
1. Close Med + Barbarossa: Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Barbarossa
2. Close Med + Sea Lion: Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
3. Close Med + Sea Lion: Poland, France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
4. Historical: Poland, France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
5. Sealion + Barbarossa: Poland, France, Sealion, then Barbarossa
6. France, Close Med + East: France, Close the Mediterranean, then Barbarossa option
7. France, Close Med + Sealion: France, Close the Mediterranean, then Sealion
8. France, Sealion + East: France, Sealion, then Barbarossa option
9. France, East + North Africa: France, then Barbarossa and North Africa
10. France + Massive Barbarossa: France, then Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support
11. Immediate Barbarossa
12. Immediate Massive Barbarossa: Immediate Barbarossa with Massive Italian Support

In most cases Germany should consider conquest of France, or delay (to let units get into Spain) installing a Vichy government during strategy 1-3, 6-7. The small production boost from a conquest of France could also be helpful for Barbarossa strategies, but it’s doubtful the effort is paid back in all most cases. A rough thumb rule could be if a conquest of France is possible during Jul/Aug 1940 the AIO should consider conquest.

The only case Germany ALWAYS should go for a conquest of France is if Germany and the US are at war.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 9/6/2011 9:56:41 PM >


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Post #: 356
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 10/18/2011 1:26:52 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

With all of the discussion about French surrender in the AI for MWiF - France thread, I was wondering about the German position that would result in a French Surrender. It would have to be pretty strong, indeed.

The logical next question is: Under what conditions should Germany consider conquest of France, instead of installing a Vichy government?

The reason I ask is that I'm working on a game in which Germany happened to take Lyons and Vichy before reaching either Lille or Paris. As in the AIO France thread, this looks like it would eventually lead to a French Surrender.

France had a very strong line at the Belgian border, but set up weak against Italy (in response to a weak Italian setup against France). Moving through Italy, the German MTN unit got across the border and with the help of ATR reorganization managed to get to Lyons. Vichy was taken on a Breakthrough result after the Maginot Line was broken during the previous turn, using an O-Chit (but the Belgian defense was still intact). Toulouse and Marseilles are defended by a single unit each right now, in early M/J '40.

In this situation, it seems Germany might want to consider conquering France . . . perhaps with the goal of attacking Spain immediately without having to collapse Vichy first. I don't know. I don't have enough experience to form a solid opinion.

-Aaron

Also in this game: Italy has conquered Syria (and aligned Iraq) and Tunisia, but is going to have trouble with Egypt. It is early in M/J '40 at the moment.

I've advanced this game to S/O '40, and France was conquered. The Germans are making very good progress in Spain on the way to taking Gibraltar. But more importantly, something I hadn't counted on actually allowed Italy to be in a very good position to take Egypt this turn.

Here's what happened (any Monk fans out there?):

Germany decided on the conquest of France in order to allow an invasion of Spain. This had the unexpected bonus result of denying the CW and France the ability to co-operate until France is liberated!!! Should that be factored into the German AIO decision-making process somehow? It certainly helped Italy in Egypt, since it was early in the game and the CW was spread thin. They could not combine forces with French units in the area to put up a solid defense.

More importantly, though, French naval units were unable to provide Defensive Shore Bombardment, leaving the Allies at a disadvantage in the Med.

Any thoughts?

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 10/18/2011 1:29:45 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 10/18/2011 6:26:20 PM   
micheljq


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The french player must leave some units in the south or try a retreat south when Paris falls and find spots to delay the german if he decides to go for a conquest.  Toulouse should at least have a unit, it can be tricky to take if well defended and can delay the german if he wants to go for Spain.

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Post #: 358
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 10/18/2011 7:05:23 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

The french player must leave some units in the south or try a retreat south when Paris falls and find spots to delay the german if he decides to go for a conquest.  Toulouse should at least have a unit, it can be tricky to take if well defended and can delay the german if he wants to go for Spain.

In this particular case, Paris and Lille were the last to fall. Germany used an O-chit to break the Maginot Line, and snuck a few units into the south by way of Italy. France had a very solid line at the Belgian border, but few units to defend elsewhere. Even playing both sides, I caught myself (the French) completely by surprise with an extremely successful set of attacks to cross south of the main French line.

Regardless of how it was done, or how it should be done, I'm still curious as to how much weight (if any) the possibility of preventing CW-French co-operation should have for the German AIO.

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Post #: 359
RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - French Conquest - 10/18/2011 7:42:10 PM   
composer99


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Not much, IMO. The Free French usually don't have substantial forces until later on, when they are cooperating with the US anyway. Although I agree the likelihood should be greater when playing with the Defensive Shore Bombardment optional.

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