Well, this pretty looks like a "Barbarossa with the Kitchen sink" strategy. Is this the "usual" Italian strategy for you ? I'm asking, because I find that this tread is very much oriented this way, and when I talk about more reasonable, but more reliable, strategies, I get bashed.
Hmm, I never intended to bash anyone. I agree that going for Gibraltar first is perfectly viable. I do think that a 41 barb needs to be strong to be worth it, and yes, this is how I have played my last 3 games as well as 2 ongoing games as the western Axis (I usually ask to control Italy when I am Germany).
About your pre-41 production, if I count right, there are about 49 BP of planes here (I assume that the setup planes are left in Italy, not the very same that were at setup, but about the same number). That averages to 8 BP of planes built per turn. Given that Italian production in 1939 is 6 BP max, and 8 BP max in 1940. The total max Italian production is 60 BP (6*8 + 2*6), with a German who would give Italy about 7 RP every turn (the 7 RP that would miss to the Italians who only have 4 RP at home to make all their 11 factories to produce).
47 typically. 2 per turn in 1939, 3 in jan/feb 40, and 8 the rest of the turns. On average, I get 1 plane shot down pre barb, so a pilot is saved there. Still enough to have 15 planes in the USSR by summer 41. Italy builds nothing but planes + pilots before mar/apr 41. I have even anounced at game start what my intentions are, so that my opponents should be in a position to try to counter it.
So, I wonder how you manage this. First, how a German can spare 7 RP a turn (in 1939 and 1940) to give them to Italy, and how can Italy only use 11 BP (60-49) on other things than planes bound for Russia. Only 11 BP of war material will be in Italy at the 1941 start, that sounds crazy to me.
Same for the pre Barb 41 production. There are 16 BP of air units in your schedule, that amounts again at 8 BP per turn. The 1941 Italian max production is 11 BP. That leaves few room for building anything else.
So, Italy does not produces AMPH nor SUBs, nor NAV, nor troops, and does not defend Tripoli.
Please, explain me how does Italy does not get conquered by the end of 1941 with such a war plan, Tripoli being conquered in 1940 ? I've once been in the CW boots with the Axis choosing such a plan who ignored the CW, and I conquered Italy in S/O 41.
I have never needed any other units for italy bofore this time. I extract about 12 bp of land units from africa, and germany sends enough cheap land units to keep italy safe from invasion in the summer of 1941. The place that I really garrison with few units, is france. I even risk partisans there, before undergarrisoning italy. In one of the 3 games, France was invaded in the summer of 1941, but they fled when Rundstedt railed in with 3 armor and some inf.
About the Russian objective cities, you cite 5 of them one of which is for the Japanese anyway (Vlad), and one of which as small chances of being conquered (Sverdlovsk), even in a full scaled "Barb with the sink strategy" (I've seen this twice, and never the Urals were passed).
Out of the 3 games i used this strategy, Sverdlovsk fell in the summer of 1942 in the first 2, while in the 3rd, the allies quit on me in the summer of 1941 after loosing most of the Russian army, as well as the city line and Moscow, irc.
So your bargain sounds not reasonable to me. Italy has better to grasp in the Med, and too much to loose abandonning its own defense. Of the 5 Russian objectives that you cited, only 3 can reasonnably be taken, and the Italian can conquer 2 easy objectives in the Med, and not count on an hypothetic Russian total defeat.
I am not sure that Italy can take and hold 2 objectives in the med on her own. If there are German units involved, I find it quite likely that Germany will claim at least 1, if not both of these objectives. Anyway, the context that this discussion is based on, is a 41 barbarossa, and as I have previously said, I do not dispute that a 41 close the med is a perfectly viable alternative.
That being said, I do expect (at least hope) that Sverdlovsk should hold in most games, if Russia (and to a lesser extent the other allies) don't make any mistakes. Svedlovsk would serve as a Carrot in order to pull Italy in the right direction, though. But even getting one in the east, as well as probably milan in italy on a quite successfull anti-soviet strategy, would give Italy 2-3 victory cities above historical. If Japan does well, a combined Japan+Italy player should have individual victory within reach. Even a pure italy player could win with this if his bid was low enough. Add Sverdlovsk + Persia, and you may reach 5 victory cities.
< Message edited by hakon -- 12/18/2006 7:16:12 PM >