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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy

 
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/3/2013 1:07:43 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Italian invasion defense plan

Based on the suggestions mentioned before, we could divide Italy into 9 defense regions and assign a base priority value for the area. Ex

Defense regions (Base Value):
• Taranto (boot‐heel) 4
• Naples 4
• Rome 5
• Sicily 1
• Florence 2
• Genoa 3
• Mountainous Adriatic coast 1
• Venice & Trieste 2
• Reggio Mountain coastline (Boot‐tip) 2


One thing the AIO has to decide is the “is Sicily relevant decision”. If the AIO says “Yes”, the Base Value for Sicily should be increased to 3. The number of units given to the Italian defense is the big factor. A thumb rule for the AIO could be something like fewer than 9 = 0%, 9-12 = 40%, 13+ 100%.

The presence, strength and location of allied airbases are one of the best indications on where the allies plan to land. So it should be a key factory to modifying the priority values. The below locations could have a reasonable chance of impacting the invasion of Italy if they are in allied hands.

Allied airbases in:
• Yugoslavian coast:
• Sardinia
• Corsica
• Malta
• Tunisia
• Greece
• Vichy France
• Albania

The distance from an allied airbase to an Italian Defense region and the size of that force modifies the priority of the Defense region, due to increased threat.

Distance to Allied airbase(Modifier Value):
1-6 = 2
7-9 = 1
10+ =0.5


Allied size:
1‐2 planes: Small, value * 0.5
3‐4 planes: normal, value * 1
5+ planes: large, value * 1. 5

The priority of each defense region could be used by the AIO help decide on how to distribute defense units to region. Also each region needs to have a min and max number of units needed as well as preferred unit type. The mechanism should be similar to setting up ex Spain for the AIO.





Yes, something along those lines.

Instead of the number of planes, an assessment of the tactical factors that can be brought to bear on the target area, and the air-to-air combat rating of any fighter escorts would be better.

I am always wary of simple multipliers. But if the resultant numbers are converted to a non-linear scale (e.g., excellent, very good, good, fair, poor, awful), then I am quite happy to plug those values into a conditional statement. What I want to avoid is trying to fine tune a rule/script to be responsive to small changes in a number. People work with approximate values for everyday living. The AIO should do likewise for its decision making.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 421
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/5/2013 6:54:57 PM   
peskpesk


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Here is an real game example of "Fortress Italy" 1943

Image from http://www.eurowif.de/




Attachment (1)

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"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 422
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/5/2013 7:00:21 PM   
peskpesk


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Here is a example on how the allies have invaded Sicily

Image from http://www.eurowif.de/






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

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Post #: 423
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/5/2013 7:46:00 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Here is an real game example of "Fortress Italy" 1943

Image from http://www.eurowif.de/




Happy days for Italy. They hold Libya and Malta and are contesting the western Med from high section boxes.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 424
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/5/2013 7:50:57 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Here is a example on how the allies have invaded Sicily

Image from http://www.eurowif.de/






All those units in Sardinia are misplaced. If those 6+ land units were anywhere in Italy proper, the Italians wouldn't be doing too badly. The Allied units in Sicily would either have to fight their way across the toe of the boot or invade where they could take out a factory.

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Post #: 425
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/9/2013 4:45:38 AM   
brian brian

 

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I'd wager the Axis commander in the second picture forgot to garrison Sardinia in a previous game and his Allied opponents used that to their advantage. Then in the next game, an over-commitment there. It is important to defend Sardinia, but you have to pick the units carefully. It's not a terrible idea to use MTN units that could be extracted by air if the Allies choose to "island-hop" Sardinia and land in Sicily first, as in the real war.


The 'Fortress Italy' picture is interesting. The Allies must be frying all their fish outside the Mediterranean, and possibly losing the war, what with Condors and Italian ARM on the board. I am having a hard time conceiving a game situation of a still functioning Vichy with Italian units on Corsica though. ? I have played LoC Vichy rules for a pretty long time though. In RaW Vichy, if the Italians take Corsica before Vichy declaration, they keep it? Or if the Allies DoW a hostile Vichy, Italy could enter Corsica?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 426
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/9/2013 8:13:01 AM   
Orm


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quote:

I am having a hard time conceiving a game situation of a still functioning Vichy with Italian units on Corsica though.

Easy enough to solve. Axis, probably Italy, conquered Corsica by occupying Ajaccio before Vichy was declared.

Corsica is not part of the French Home Country but is a separate territory. Corsica becomes part of a Metropolitan Vichy France if Corsica was French at the moment of Vichy Creation. But if it was conquered before Vichy creation it stays conquered.


Cut from 17.1 Creation
....
If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan
Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France.

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Post #: 427
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 9/9/2013 3:23:50 PM   
brian brian

 

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Thanks Orm. Good long-term thinking by Italy...a Vichy Corsica can be a decided weak spot in The Fortress' perimeter.

Very good Vichy set-up in that shot too.

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Post #: 428
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/10/2013 3:09:12 PM   
brian brian

 

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So with the longer hours of darkness I have a little more free time to fiddle with WiF. I'm just looking at set-ups and opening strategies.

The best thing Italy has is their surprise impulse. The question I'm starting to look at is in terms of Germany going for a France First with a march into Spain immediately to ultimately take Gibraltar. Not necessarily for an anti-CW game in the long term. Perhaps Gibraltar and then Barbarossa.

Italian help in southern France should be very useful in a France First. But if an ultimate objective is Gibraltar, an early Italian landing in Algeria can really get the ball rolling in securing Axis bases in NW Africa.

But I can't decide which I like better, using the surprise bonuses to crack the Alps, or using them to land for free, without western Allied naval interception, in any non-ZoC hex in Algeria. Thoughts?

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Post #: 429
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/10/2013 5:34:52 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

So with the longer hours of darkness I have a little more free time to fiddle with WiF. I'm just looking at set-ups and opening strategies.

The best thing Italy has is their surprise impulse. The question I'm starting to look at is in terms of Germany going for a France First with a march into Spain immediately to ultimately take Gibraltar. Not necessarily for an anti-CW game in the long term. Perhaps Gibraltar and then Barbarossa.

Italian help in southern France should be very useful in a France First. But if an ultimate objective is Gibraltar, an early Italian landing in Algeria can really get the ball rolling in securing Axis bases in NW Africa.

But I can't decide which I like better, using the surprise bonuses to crack the Alps, or using them to land for free, without western Allied naval interception, in any non-ZoC hex in Algeria. Thoughts?

The latter.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 430
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/10/2013 5:50:34 PM   
CrusssDaddy

 

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Even with surprise, I think defending the Alps for France is very easy against Italy. The MTN unit is virtually untouchable: very slight probability it is destroyed in an attack, much much greater probability that Italy loses 2+ units and has everyone else flipped. One each of MTN + GAR + MIL pretty much seals up the entire south. Much better to litter invading DIVs throughout the theater and let the Allies try to guess your true intentions.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/10/2013 6:51:15 PM   
petracelli

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

So with the longer hours of darkness I have a little more free time to fiddle with WiF. I'm just looking at set-ups and opening strategies.

The best thing Italy has is their surprise impulse. The question I'm starting to look at is in terms of Germany going for a France First with a march into Spain immediately to ultimately take Gibraltar. Not necessarily for an anti-CW game in the long term. Perhaps Gibraltar and then Barbarossa.

Italian help in southern France should be very useful in a France First. But if an ultimate objective is Gibraltar, an early Italian landing in Algeria can really get the ball rolling in securing Axis bases in NW Africa.

But I can't decide which I like better, using the surprise bonuses to crack the Alps, or using them to land for free, without western Allied naval interception, in any non-ZoC hex in Algeria. Thoughts?

The latter.


How about landing in the south of France close to the prynees allowing an early capture of the French city - sorry temporarily forgotten it's name with the factory, leading to an earlier conquest of France and on into Spain?

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Post #: 432
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/10/2013 9:49:07 PM   
brian brian

 

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3 options now.

Of course the decision on attacking the Alps depends on the French set-up. Placing the MTN unit in Nice is a common decision. 15 defense factors, nice. But it is more vulnerable than you might think. The Italians could hit it with shore bombardment to get a 30 : 15 = +4, and a few miscellaneous planes left over to try for double dice ground strikes, and +1.5 HQ Support for a +5.5. Risky as all heck, sure, but you either play the game all-in on a France First or you don't. MTN + division in Nice stops that cold.

But Nice isn't the best hex for the Italians to take, as taking it just presents them with 2 more hexes of the Alps to take somehow. That would be next hex up on the border, since if they take that the French get really stretched. They can't get shore bombardment on the hex but they can do a variety of things with doubled air &/or ART on the surprise impulse and get a better attack than generally imagined. The surprise impulse is their one best chance to crack the Alps until solid German INF corps arrive on the front.

On the other hand a front in Algeria adds a front to the Allied defense and gives them a dilemma. France is seriously threatened in the short term, but Gibraltar is threatened in the long term. France First is so risky for the Axis that I think this is still my second choice. More pressure in France is better - if the sun is shining, the great variable of the strategy.

Landing west of Marseilles, now that is interesting. Italian air can reach the area, so an invasion on surprise could go off at +10. Roll 13+ with both units surviving and the French southern front could likely get extremely fluid. Unless Wavell is already loading his tanks on a TRS in Egypt perhaps. Or I think it would be likely to see CW units railed into Toulouse. Ties down some Allied assets...good in France First...but less likely to take anything of value, even if Italy manages to land an HQ through a major western Allied task force in the West Med.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 10/10/2013 9:50:39 PM >

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/10/2013 9:51:54 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: petracelli

How about landing in the south of France close to the prynees allowing an early capture of the French city - sorry temporarily forgotten it's name with the factory, leading to an earlier conquest of France and on into Spain?

Since the notional in France is still worth one (major power) on the surprise impulse, that can be pretty risky for an invasion with just divisions.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/10/2013 9:52:58 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/11/2013 12:46:21 AM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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It's actually worse than that, if you want to get a port (if you don't have a port, I don't know how your division is going to stay in supply when he moves inland) There are only 3 ports on the south coast, and every French player is at least going to deploy a reserve unit to Nice, and Marseilles is a city, and uhm, the other one, blanking on the name , is in the mountains. You only get a 1 strength notional if you want to go for that open patch east of Tolouse and just strike inland.



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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 10/11/2013 1:06:37 AM   
brian brian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Since the notional in France is still worth one (major power) on the surprise impulse, that can be pretty risky for an invasion with just divisions.



Sure. +10 is not too terrible though. You could get a 3rd division involved by waiting till the 3rd Axis impulse, but by then the Allies might just Declare War on Italy anyway.

Overall it is risky, but France First is risky all by itself. You have to go all-in or stay home. Thanks for the idea Petracelli.

The Italians could advance from a beachhead in supply by landing an HQ, but that would not be easy, nor would maintaining that supply either as there's these guys called the Royal Navy that is particularly experienced at blockading that particular stretch of coast. Toulouse is a heckuva prize to acquire however, if the Allies don't rail in troops. The better part about such a landing is simply the units tied down. Normally the Marseilles MIL would go straight to the front lines.

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