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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy

 
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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 8:28:20 PM   
Centuur


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But it is risky for the Italian too. The Italian army isn't what I call a first class army at all. Even against the Greeks it sure won't be a walk over for them.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 8:58:04 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

It's okay. Picking up halfway through isn't always easy.

I actually agree with you. It's risky for the CW. They don't start with a lot of land units to spare.


land units are not the main risk .. it is does transporters ..

if they can be sunk, the axis have a year of free playing time ..

and CW need at least 6 transports and 3 amph in the late war ...

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 9:21:43 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

It's okay. Picking up halfway through isn't always easy.

I actually agree with you. It's risky for the CW. They don't start with a lot of land units to spare.


land units are not the main risk .. it is does transporters ..

if they can be sunk, the axis have a year of free playing time ..

and CW need at least 6 transports and 3 amph in the late war ...

That's also true. I was thinking about the fact that the CW has very little away from the UK, and needs some of it to fortify Egypt, Gibraltar, Malta, etc. If they commit heavily to Greece in '39 (and worse, if they lose some of those TRS and land units), they strip away other areas, leaving them vulnerable . . . and could even cause the early collapse of France.

Italy's position, though fairly weak, is at least consolidated in the early game. They have to decide where to use their feeble army to attack, rather than where to defend.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 10:17:59 PM   
Centuur


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Yes, but when the Italian army is committed in Greece, they haven't got enough forces left to attack the CW or France. The Italians are still restricted to combined impulses when attacking Greece (since they are not at war with a major power), which makes it even more difficult for them to move land units to other theaters.
It might be good Italian play, though, since a capture of Greece in S/O 1939 means an early alignment of Yugoslavia on the Axis side and gives the Italians some needed breathing space and resources. However, if the Italians set up to capture Greece, wouldn't the CW TRS (together with the French one)  be set up in the Med, to react to such an attack and get those four CW corps in Greece asap?
It isn't impossible to get those four CW corps in Greece and move them out the next turn, after alignment of Yugoslavia on the CW side. That the Yugoslavs will be crushed by the Germans next, is a pity for them, but better than to have them running around the map as Axis troops. If the Italians then decide to DoW the CW to crush the TRS is something which might occur.
Difficult to see al the consequences of such an early Greek-Italian conflict...




< Message edited by Centuur -- 7/9/2011 10:18:59 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 10:29:36 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Yes, but when the Italian army is committed in Greece, they haven't got enough forces left to attack the CW or France. The Italians are still restricted to combined impulses when attacking Greece (since they are not at war with a major power), which makes it even more difficult for them to move land units to other theaters.
It might be good Italian play, though, since a capture of Greece in S/O 1939 means an early alignment of Yugoslavia on the Axis side and gives the Italians some needed breathing space and resources. However, if the Italians set up to capture Greece, wouldn't the CW TRS (together with the French one)  be set up in the Med, to react to such an attack and get those four CW corps in Greece asap?
It isn't impossible to get those four CW corps in Greece and move them out the next turn, after alignment of Yugoslavia on the CW side. That the Yugoslavs will be crushed by the Germans next, is a pity for them, but better than to have them running around the map as Axis troops. If the Italians then decide to DoW the CW to crush the TRS is something which might occur.
Difficult to see al the consequences of such an early Greek-Italian conflict...


Actually, it might be an even more brilliant ploy for Italy to set up for Greece and not go for it. If it is a semi-strong setup, but not over-powering, even better.

That way, if the CW and France set up to support Greece, Italy has gotten them to start with their TRS out of position for anything else. Italy can then do something else, maybe even DOW the CW simply to try to kill those TRS. Maybe a wasted DOW, maybe not. If they ignore his setup, then it's time to strike, maybe with an extra German LND flown down to Bulgaria to compensate for the not-over-powering Italian setup.

As you say, very difficult to see the consequences. Gonna have to try them out and see, I guess.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 7/9/2011 10:30:53 PM >


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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 10:48:58 PM   
Centuur


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As the Italian, this is probably a nice way to start the war. You're not committing to a sitzkrieg that way and you'll give the allies something to think about. However, it is not something which is easy done, since an overpowering Italian set up isn't exactly possible. It probably leaves to many area's undefended (French Alps should be defended and Rome, to prevent the French together with the CW corps to knock Italy out of the war early). Together with a corps in Sardinia (to prevent an early capture by the CW of the resource there) that leaves 3 corps and an HQ max in Albania. Together with an German LND and the Bulgarian army, it should do the job, if the CW is not reacting...


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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/9/2011 11:44:29 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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Wait, I might be missing something again, or playing with an out of date version of the rules, but I thought the Axis could only align Yugoslavia if, Yugoslavia is neutral, and the Axis control Italy, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania. Now, depending on how the Nazi-Soviet pact stuff is working out, you might get some sooner rather than later, but I thought it was impossible to collect the entire set before the war against the USSR.


So I don't see how an early capture of Greece leads to an early aligning of Yugoslavia

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/10/2011 12:45:50 AM   
Red Prince


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If you're willing to risk the USSR taking Rumania, here's how it can play out:

  • Germany (& Italy) DOW Greece in S/O '39; Germany can instantly align Bulgaria (bypassing the Bessarabia claim)
  • Axis is it war with Greece, hopefully controlling Athens by the end of the turn; Greece is conquered by Italy
  • When the USSR claims Bessarabia (prossibly J/F '40 or earlier), deny the claim; USSR at war with Rumania
  • Germany aligns Hungary, supports Rumania vs. USSR
  • USSR fails to take Rumania; Germany enforces peace (probably losing Bessarabia)
  • Germany aligns Rumania
  • Italy aligns Yugoslavia

Did I miss anything? Of course, this requires a co-operative USSR. But if they don't make the claim, Germany can DOW Yugoslavia and align Rumania anyway, and keep Bessarabia. Italy loses out on the backup home nation, but you've got to roll with the punches.

If you can't tell, I like the idea of messing around in the Balkans.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/10/2011 1:02:35 AM   
Orm


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Another way to do it.

1) DOW Greece and align Bulgaria.
2) Conquer Greece.
3) Allow the USSR claim to Bessarabia.
4) Deny Hungary and Bulgaria claims on Rumania -> Rumania aligns to Germany.
5) DOW Hungary.
6) As soon as Hungary is conquered you can align Yugoslavia.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/10/2011 9:52:53 AM   
Centuur


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If the USSR doesn't claim Bessarabia, aligning Yugoslavia early in the war isn't possible. However, the Allies then have to think about the consequences of a DoW of Germany on USSR at some point in the game. At that moment, the Axis can align Rumania, Hungary and Yugoslavia (in that order), which means all Balkan countries are active on the Axis side and those nice defensive cities in Bessarabia can't be used to defend the Odessa factory. It probably isn't going to be railed out in time.


< Message edited by Centuur -- 7/10/2011 9:53:35 AM >


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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2011 10:33:23 PM   
brian brian

 

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I have looked at an Italian attack in S/O 39 in terms of getting ashore, etc. but have never pulled that trigger, nor ever seen it done. Worries about the CW transport capacity are overblown......a lot of CW players would be glad to issue a DOW to start taking cracks at the Italian lift and convoy points, a pro-active way to defend the rest of the Med.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2011 10:37:21 PM   
brian brian

 

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It is an easy Axis response to any CW decision to say ... they can't defend everywhere, that means I'll just attack somewhere else. This is true, and it is the job of the CW player to prioritize where to defend. Malta is one of those places in my opinion. Defending Malta is a front-line defense for the rest of the CW's holdings in the Med. And the CW can defend a lot of places actually as they have a lot of MIL and TERR to put on the board cheaply. The Allies in general need to spend 39-41 throwing a lot of cheap infantry under Axis tank treads over and over again. Yes, they get killed. But they cost the Axis impulses ( = time) dealing with them, and that is what the game is all about. You only have a finite amount of time.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2011 6:46:23 PM   
composer99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

It is an easy Axis response to any CW decision to say ... they can't defend everywhere, that means I'll just attack somewhere else. This is true, and it is the job of the CW player to prioritize where to defend. Malta is one of those places in my opinion. Defending Malta is a front-line defense for the rest of the CW's holdings in the Med. And the CW can defend a lot of places actually as they have a lot of MIL and TERR to put on the board cheaply. The Allies in general need to spend 39-41 throwing a lot of cheap infantry under Axis tank treads over and over again. Yes, they get killed. But they cost the Axis impulses ( = time) dealing with them, and that is what the game is all about. You only have a finite amount of time.


Might I add that, apart from France, it's hard for the Axis to bring those tank treads to bear against CW defences, as they involve crossing hostile expanses of sea (eg. shipping armour across to Egypt or invading the UK) or armour simply can't be used (an attack on Malta or Gibraltar unless the Axis goes through Spain in the latter case).

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2011 6:47:08 PM   
composer99


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Not to say that it can't be done, of course; I've been the victim of not one but two succesful Sealion campaigns. But it does require both skill and fortune.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2011 7:02:46 PM   
Red Prince


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Perhaps this is sacrilidge: Early on, versus the CW, armour isn't the most important thing, I think. Because MWiF uses European scale for the whole world, I think it's more important for Italy to try to get units of any kind into places where the CW has little or nothing in the way of defenses. Force him to play on Italian terms by threatening to take over large amounts of "useless" land. Territorials may be rotten combatants, but a lot of them have good "speed", and the ones that Italy begins with (optional rule) can pillage East Africa and threaten North Africa, too. Yes, that's French, but the CW would probably rather see it go Vichy instead of Italian conquered.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2011 7:07:44 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Not to say that it can't be done, of course; I've been the victim of not one but two succesful Sealion campaigns. But it does require both skill and fortune.

And the fortune part is what I don't like about a Sealion. It all depends on a small number rolls with the dice. It is a high risk option. If it succeeds, you'll probably win the game. If it doesn't succeed the problems are huge for the Axis.
Even if attack planning is optimal, the risks of a loss are pretty high. The problem is first to get ashore and second to stay ashore and in supply. The first part is the easy one of the two. The second one however is not...

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2011 7:23:01 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Perhaps this is sacrilidge: Early on, versus the CW, armour isn't the most important thing, I think. Because MWiF uses European scale for the whole world, I think it's more important for Italy to try to get units of any kind into places where the CW has little or nothing in the way of defenses. Force him to play on Italian terms by threatening to take over large amounts of "useless" land. Territorials may be rotten combatants, but a lot of them have good "speed", and the ones that Italy begins with (optional rule) can pillage East Africa and threaten North Africa, too. Yes, that's French, but the CW would probably rather see it go Vichy instead of Italian conquered.

I agree totally. When I play the Italians, I always like to go to war with France early and try to capture Tunesia, Algeria and French Somaliland. Even a small exploit into Syria might be nice. Message to the CW is: please DoW me, since I'm very slowly but surely capturing all kind of nice places...
Off course, if the CW is doing a sloppy job on the defence of Gibraltar, I like to take a shot at it (a 40% opportunity of succes in an assault of Gib, I would always take, provided I will be able to have a reasonable defense there against an CW counterattack). Same with Malta (now it is a major port on my doorstep...). As the Italian, I wouldn't sit idle in 1939. Yes, the US doesn't like an DoW very much and there are some risks involved (don't fritter away the navy against the French!) but the boost in production and the lending possibilities from the Germans are very welcome for the Italians.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/19/2011 10:15:26 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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My biggest concern about an Italian DoW on one of the WAllies in 39 isn't so much the U.S. entry; it's that you actually don't have a lock on the mediterranian right away. The British and French carriers are awful, but at the start you have a grand total of 1 gabbiano and 1 Lnd 3 to oppose them. You can build more fast, but for those first few turns, I've seen quite a few games where the British and French just throw battleships and carriers into the Med and sink convoys, interdict your supply lines, etc.


That being said, I almost always declare war on both France and England the first chance I get myself :P

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/22/2011 6:44:17 PM   
brian brian

 

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A lot of good thoughts here. I didn't mean the CW will be putting infantry in front of the Axis' actual tanks in every case - obviously, that would just be on the Continent. I meant two things....the Allies can't think "I won't defend 'there', the units will just get killed." My point it is, if you don't defend 'there', it won't cost the Axis any time to get 'there'. That and the glib response about "He who defends everything, defends nothing" shouldn't be used as a justification for hoarding too much of the CW land forces at home. (Though I never commit the CW MECH anywhere outside the UK until 41 usually). If a cheap CW infantry is lost, don't worry, just build more; there's lots to pick from. That's why I like the 7-3 INF on Malta....I like to build out the CW MIL pool so the London MIL can just keep reappearing right in front of the Axis perpetually.

And as was noted, the key to the CW defense is the Italian lift. So much so that many Allied players just simply plan on a DOW on Italy on the 4th impulse of the game to start taking shots at them.

But this is the Italian AI thread. As noted in the post just above, the Italian naval air assets aren't dominating in 1939. They can't be ignored, but they could be stronger. This makes a good case for an early Italian DOW on the Allies.....so the Luftwaffe can join in the fun as much as any other reason.

I think a main Italian desire should be Algiers/Oran, almost regardless of overall Axis strategy. If the French are dumb enough to pull their troops from Algeria without some CW replacements, the Italians should jump on this. As the French, I do pull the INF from Syria, as the early war Italians have a harder time operating in the Eastern Med. But even if the Axis target is Barbarossa '41, the Italians should consider an invasion of French North Africa. The point is to put pressure on the CW in terms of developing bases within range of Gibraltar. If you don't pressure your enemies, they have an easier time of doing what they want instead of reacting to you. I'm not sure I would land Italian tanks or HQs unless you truly are launching an anti-CW grand strategy. [Sea Lion is indeed high-risk, high-reward decision, but a "successful" Sea Lion doesn't necessarily win the game for the Axis unless the Allies fail a morale check and throw in the towel.]

My thoughts on overall Italian strategy are too colored by playing with LoC Vichy for so long; that argues for earlier Italian participation in putting rocks on the scale towards the French tipping point.

I do like messing around in Africa for fun and look forward to the new map, but without LoC Vichy rules in MWiF I'm not sure how much real pressure either side can put on the other anywhere but along the Mediterranean coast-line. It is fun to be able to pick up the attack dice for an all-TERRitorial battle deep in the heart of darkness or in some craggy mountain range in the Italian "empire" knowing it doesn't really matter to the rest of the war if you roll low; there is nothing to be gained but glory.

(And in LoC Vichy the best Allied counter-move is to land the at-start CW Infantry division in French Somaliland to deny the easy chit pick-up.)

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/29/2011 8:35:26 AM   
Red Prince


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I don't know that this can be used for the AIO, but I recently ran another test, and it helps a lot to have Germany & Italy both DOW Greece so that Bulgaria can be aligned. The Bulgarian unit (a 3-3 INF, I think) is set up so that it can get to Salonica. If you are using the option for movement along rail lines, it can get in and then back out of Salonica during the 1st impulse of a turn. If Italy is active, this gives the Italians a port to land 2 more units in Greece without having to invade.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 8/19/2011 6:37:24 PM   
composer99


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Since I have strategic bombing on the brain, I shall note here that Italy's options for strategic bombing are more-or-less identical to Germany's.

I should note that Italy might be a stronger pick for an Axis strategic air raider because it mostly builds longer-range LND and NAV (compared to Germany's short-range Stuka LND). A 9-range NAV or LND with 2-3 strat factors can reach every factory in the UK from Calais. Two of those and one of Italy's 2-reorg HQ-Is and you have a nice mini-campaign going on.

Italian LND & NAV are also helpful in the USSR campaign for strategic raiding because of their longer ranges. HQ-I Balbo or HQ-A Graziani and a few planes can take potshots at the oil (or any railed factories) in the Caucasus or (if the Axis advance to the Volga line east of Moscow) at the factory base along the Urals.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 1/28/2013 4:58:34 PM   
composer99


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I read through the thread earlier and didn't see that I'd mentioned it, so I will now. Apologies if I've already brought this up (might have in either the German or CW AI threads):

If Germany is planning a Sealion, one possible Italian tactic is, while neutral vis-à-vis the Commonwealth, to sail a transport through the Straits of Gibraltar into the Atlantic and rebase it to Germany during a subsequent impulse (Italy must be at war with someone to do this part, of course). You could do this with more than one transport.

Upside is that it increases available Axis sealift to invade the UK or support an invasion.

Downside is the decrease in flexibility in operating in the Med (especially if you sail all of Italy's lift out) - although this may not be as important as the CW may neglect reinforcing the Med to meet the threatened invasion.
Another downside is telegraphing Axis intentions.
Another downside is, unless the transport moves out on the very first impulse of the game and Italy enters the war on the second, there is a real threat of a CW declaration of war finding and sinking the transport (or aborting the transport, then intercepting it en route back to Germany thus sinking it - unless the CW player is me, in which case you're golden because he'll miss the initial search and every interception).

If, on the other hand, the Italians are participating in a kitchen-sink Barb, they may only need 1 transport to bring the army back from Africa, so in conjunction with some phanton German AMPH builds this might be a good way to feint the Commonwealth.

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RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 4/24/2013 3:46:26 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Lets just say I have a vision problem (when not wearing my reading glasses) that can shift information down a line when reading charts.

I would appreciate it if someone would check this for me.

Activity limits:
All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during their impulse
Unlimited Declarations of war
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Headquarters reorganization
Unlimited TRS re-supply

These missions occur during every air mission except re-base, naval air and naval air interception
-- Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
-- Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
-- Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions


All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during an enemy impulse
Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions
Unlimited Naval movement only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Unlimited Naval interception missions
Unlimited Naval combat only in sea areas your opponent moved a unit into, and only if they did not try to initiate combat there.
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment if you are playing with defensive shore bombardment - see 11.16.2 Shore bombardment.
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Re-base aircraft missions only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).


Italian activity limits:
Naval action
No Rail movement
Unlimited Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Naval Embarkation
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Paradrop
-- Unlimited Debarkation (units transported directly into port debark with no land movement cost)
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
2x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Air action
1x Rail movement (You can only rail aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
-- Debarkation
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
Unlimited Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Land action
1x Rail movement (You can only rail land units or factories) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combat (this does not deny your naval units that stayed at sea from a previous impulse the ability to make enemy naval units fight their through)
Unlimited Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
Unlimited Land attacks (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat).
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
1x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Combined action
1x Rail movement (You can rail land units, factories, or aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
1x Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation
-- Unlimited Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combat
2x Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
1x Land attack (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat)
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission and 1x Land movement.
Each Paradrop counts as 1x Land attack.



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 4/24/2013 9:46:32 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 323
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 4/24/2013 7:11:48 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18170
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I read through the thread earlier and didn't see that I'd mentioned it, so I will now. Apologies if I've already brought this up (might have in either the German or CW AI threads):

If Germany is planning a Sealion, one possible Italian tactic is, while neutral vis-à-vis the Commonwealth, to sail a transport through the Straits of Gibraltar into the Atlantic and rebase it to Germany during a subsequent impulse (Italy must be at war with someone to do this part, of course). You could do this with more than one transport.

Upside is that it increases available Axis sealift to invade the UK or support an invasion.

Downside is the decrease in flexibility in operating in the Med (especially if you sail all of Italy's lift out) - although this may not be as important as the CW may neglect reinforcing the Med to meet the threatened invasion.
Another downside is telegraphing Axis intentions.
Another downside is, unless the transport moves out on the very first impulse of the game and Italy enters the war on the second, there is a real threat of a CW declaration of war finding and sinking the transport (or aborting the transport, then intercepting it en route back to Germany thus sinking it - unless the CW player is me, in which case you're golden because he'll miss the initial search and every interception).

If, on the other hand, the Italians are participating in a kitchen-sink Barb, they may only need 1 transport to bring the army back from Africa, so in conjunction with some phanton German AMPH builds this might be a good way to feint the Commonwealth.

I don't see a problem for the transport from the Commonwealth. On the first impulse it sails to the Bay of Biscay. On the second, the Commonwealth and France can only DOW Germany. On the third impulse the Italians DOW France and sail the convoy into Germany. If France has put some naval units in the North Sea, that could be a problem. But they have to have taken a Combined or Naval in the second impulse to have done that (or they could have placed a naval air unit in the North Sea!). Even then they only get one shot at the interception.

If France has been careful, there is still a chance of DOWing the Commonwealth instead and sailing the convoy around the top of Scotland and into Germany. Of course the Commonwealth could have placed units at sea to intercept.

It is probably worthwhile to simply sail the transport out on the first impulse, since there is nothing the Allies can do to harm it. If both the French and the Commonwealth occupy sea areas to intercept a return to base to Germany, then the transport can just sail back to Italy - no harm, no foul.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 324
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/18/2013 2:29:30 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1598
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Lets look at Italy Declaring War on France.

Italian Combined action
1x Naval movement (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)

Europe
Balbo (HQ-I), 4x (2) FTR 2, 2x (1) LND 3, 2x (1) NAV 2, and 4x Pilots

Aircraft type (Air to Air, Air to Sea, Tactical, Strategic bombing, and Range)

1935 - 1939
Italy has 12x LND types all with "Strategic bombing" factors.

Italy has 6x LND that are without "Air to Sea" factors.
BR.20 Cicogna (Stork) (1,0,3,3,9)
Ca.133 (1,0,1,2,6)
Ca.133 (0,0,1,2,6)
Ca.135 (1,0,2,3,5)
Ca.313 (2,0,2,1,5)
Ca.313 (1,0,2,1,5)

Italy has 6x LND that have "Air to Sea" factors.
BA.65 Lince (Lynx) (2,1,3,1,2)
BA.65 Lince (Lynx) (2,1,3,1,2)
SM.81 Pipistrello (Bat) (1,1,1,2,7)
SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,2,8)
SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,3,8)
Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher) (3,2,3,2,5)

Italy has 4x NAV types all having "Air to Sea" and "Strategic bombing" factors.
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (0,2,1,1,11)
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (1,2,1,1,11)
Z.501 Gabbiano (Gull) (1,2,1,1,11)
Z.506B Airone (Heron) (1,3,2,2,9)

Italy will have between 2 to 7 "Air to Sea" factors.
Italy will have between 1 to 8 "Strategic bombing" factors.


quote:

15. Surprise
Aircraft units controlled by a major power declaring war, cannot be intercepted if they are flying:
A strategic bombardment mission against a hex controlled by a surprised major power or minor country; or
Any other mission exclusively against surprised units.

Anti-aircraft fire from units of a major power that is surprised is halved if directed exclusively against bombers controlled by a major power that declared war on it.

Naval units
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points. The attacking major powers get the normal number (this will increase the number of net surprise points the attacker can spend, if there is any combat).

Overrun naval units are more likely to be captured or destroyed when surprised (see 11.11.6 Overruns).

Spending surprise points
Increase your column on the naval combat chart ~ 2 per column
Decrease your opponent’s anti-aircraft fire ~ 2 per column


quote:

22.4.3 Frogmen (AsA option 24)
Frogmen movement
You can rail move frogmen like a land unit (see 11.10).
You can also transport frogmen with a TRS (see 11.4.5) or an ATR (see 11.12).
Frogmen can also make a naval move but it must end in a port, friendly or enemy. Frogmen can end a move in an enemy port only if it started the move in supply.
Frogmen make their naval move just like a surface naval unit.
They can be intercepted (but not in the enemy port). If they are intercepted, they count as 1 surface naval unit for naval combat.

Frogmen combats
Frogmen’s special ability is to attack enemy naval units in the port they enter. Only one frogman may attack the same port in one impulse. After the attack, the frogmen are destroyed.

Frogmen attack in this way:
1. Both sides roll search dice (as in port attacks ~ see 11.2 Port attack). Frogmen are treated as being in a sea-box section equal to double their attack factors (in the blue circle);
2. If the frogmen’s search roll is higher than their section, they are destroyed before attacking;
3. The port’s owner can avoid the attack by spending 4 surprise points;
4. You execute the attack using the air-to-sea row (see 11.5.9 Naval air combat) of the naval combat chart. However, the owner chooses the first target, the frogman the second etc. (you can spend surprise points to alter the column or to select targets normally of course).


quote:

11.5.9 Naval air combat
For every 10 points in the total, the owner may choose to:
(a) Destroy 1 land-based bomber; or
(b) Destroy 2 carrier planes; or
(c) Destroy 1 carrier plane and abort 1 land-based bomber.

If there are 5 points left, the owner may choose to:
(a) Abort 1 land-based bomber; or
(b) Destroy 1 carrier plane.

For every remaining point in the total, 1 further air-to-sea factor does not press the attack.


Frogmen attack
1. Since it's a surprise impulse only Italy rolls a "search roll".
2. The Italian Frogmen are considered to be in sea-box section 6.
3. If Italy's "search roll" greater than 6 the Frogmen are eliminated.

4. Italy executes the attack.

France has 1 CVL and 23 SCS in port for 24 ships (+1 with the TRS, +2 if you commit both submarines).
24 to 29 ships is the same chart so committing the French submarines would only be good for soaking up damage.

When Italian Frogmen (including surprise points) have an attack value of:
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A


Port attack
France has 22 anti-aircraft factors cut in half to 11 anti-aircraft factors.
Carriers
Béarn 1
Barrleships
Bretagne 0, Dunkerque 2, Lorraine 1, Jean Bart 0, Provence 1, and Strasbourg 3
Heavy cruisers
Algerie 2, Colbert 1, Duguay Trouin 0, Dupleix 1, Duqesne 1, Foch 1, Primaguet 1, Suffren 1, and Tourville 0
Light cruisers
Emile Bertin 0, G. Leygues 1, Galissonniere 1, Gloire 1, Jean de Vienne 1, Jeanne D'Arc 0, Marseillaise 1, and Montcalm 1

Spending 4 surprise points negates French AA fire for a single bomber.
Spending 6 surprise points negates French AA fire for two bombers.
Sending more than two bombers will result in aborts so it is counter productive.

When Italy has an "Air to Sea" (including surprise points) attack value of:
2 ~ 1 D and 1 A
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 to 7 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A
8 to 10 ~ 2 X, 1 D, and 1 A


Strategic bombing
One has been already added to the die roll since the bombers did not fight any air-to-air combat due to this being a surprise impulse.

When Italy has a "Strategic bombing" attack value of:
1 ~ 60% loss of zero production points or 40% loss of 1 production point

2 to 3 ~ 50% loss of zero production points, 50% loss of 1 production point

4 to 6 ~ 40% loss of zero production points, 60% loss of 1 production point

7 to 9 ~ 30% loss of zero production points, 60% loss of 1 production point, or 10% loss of 1 production points and 1 factory destroyed.

Summary
A dice roll above 6 destroys the Frogmen attack.

The Italian set up draw of LND decides what air attacks can be made.
An Italian draw of LND without "Air to Sea" factors or insufficient range means that the NAV would have to perform the Port attack alone.
An Italian draw of LND without "Strategic bombing" factors or insufficient range means that the NAV would have to perform Strategic bombing alone.

The Italian optimal draw for air attacks would be:

For the "Port attack":
The SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,2,8), or the SM.79 Sparviero (Hawk) (2,2,3,3,8), or the Z.1007 Alcione (Kingfisher) (3,2,3,2,5)
And the Z.506B Airone (Heron) (1,3,2,2,9)
3 ~ 2 D and 3 A
4 ~ 1 X and 1 D
5 ~ 1 X, 1 D, and 3 A
6 to 7 ~ 1 X, 2 D, and 3 A

For the "Strategic bombing":
The Ca.135 (1,0,2,3,5)
2 to 3 ~ 50% loss of zero production points, 50% loss of 1 production point



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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 325
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/21/2013 10:50:46 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 1413
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
The question of on whom and when Italy should DOW is critical it sets the tone of the whole campaign. Just doing it for a good chance for ex a success full Strategic bombing is not good enough. Usually the main reasons for just declaring war on France for Italy are:

1) Avoid fighting with CW
--a. Might forcing CW to declare war on IT, possible gain US-entry
--b. possibly gaining a second chance for a new surprise round against CW with later declaration of war on CW (it might even be without a US-entry hit)
--c. Only face one navy instead of two

2) Getting IT to become an active major power
--a. letting GE resources to be sent to IT
--b. getting normal action limits
--c. easier to conquer minors

3) Attacking and FR minors and territory

4) Euro Axis concentrating on France
--a. Allowing GE troops to attack southern France
--b. Assisting GE to attack mainland France, possibly with air force only.

5) Attacking FR ships

6) Deploying GE troops to the Mediterranean

7) …

The downside is of course
--a The risk of more US Entry hits(when IT DOW CW)
--b Getting hit by a nasty surprise round (when CW DOW IT)
--c Not getting the chance to attack CW until war

The interesting choice on Land/Air/Naval and Combined action is tied in a mix of the
strategy/tactics and what possible gain is available and also closely based on preparations and
which Impulse the DOW comes.

Ex imaging if the French have garrisoned the Italian border poorly, the AIO should consider an
attack there instead of shipping troops to Libya. A bold Italian move could be to first do a
preparation impulse, like sailing out a SCS with a DIV on in the Med. Then during the real DOW
impulse he makes a land action moving and attacking FR in the Alps and making an invasion at
the same time.

Frogmen attack, Port attack are both good choices but due to that France often puts some of the best ships in ports out of reach it might only be minor gains.

The Italian draw during set up affects the possible gains during a first turn declaration of war but
only minor since the AIO strategic plan sets the base rules.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/23/2013 8:04:00 PM >


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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 326
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/22/2013 12:02:28 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 3674
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

as I see it, port attacks against ports with big fleets are more or less point less.

the defence AA often give you more losses then you give.

you should use port attacks like a sniper, hitting high priced targets that are alone in ports.

so place a nav, have it hide. (dont use them) sooner or later the other players will make mistakes.


my biggest target was to CW transports. they sail them directly from UK to Malta. next impulse they were sunk

sound like nothing, but it was a no risk attack. and it cost CW 10 BP.

.
so my point is, port attacking the French fleet is a waste of time.



_____________________________

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I work hard, not smart.

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(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 327
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/22/2013 7:55:08 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 2965
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


as I see it, port attacks against ports with big fleets are more or less point less.

the defence AA often give you more losses then you give.

you should use port attacks like a sniper, hitting high priced targets that are alone in ports.

so place a nav, have it hide. (dont use them) sooner or later the other players will make mistakes.


my biggest target was to CW transports. they sail them directly from UK to Malta. next impulse they were sunk

sound like nothing, but it was a no risk attack. and it cost CW 10 BP.

.
so my point is, port attacking the French fleet is a waste of time.




You gave an important lesson to your opponent in that game: never sail TRS without a suitable escort if they can be attacked by the enemy. The loss of one or worse even two TRS early in the game is devastating to any MP who depends on those units for transporting land units. It isn't only the loss of BP but also the capability of building up units in various theaters can become a real problem.




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Peter

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 328
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/22/2013 8:52:27 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 3674
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


as I see it, port attacks against ports with big fleets are more or less point less.

the defence AA often give you more losses then you give.

you should use port attacks like a sniper, hitting high priced targets that are alone in ports.

so place a nav, have it hide. (dont use them) sooner or later the other players will make mistakes.


my biggest target was to CW transports. they sail them directly from UK to Malta. next impulse they were sunk

sound like nothing, but it was a no risk attack. and it cost CW 10 BP.

.
so my point is, port attacking the French fleet is a waste of time.




You gave an important lesson to your opponent in that game: never sail TRS without a suitable escort if they can be attacked by the enemy. The loss of one or worse even two TRS early in the game is devastating to any MP who depends on those units for transporting land units. It isn't only the loss of BP but also the capability of building up units in various theaters can become a real problem.





I have done it my self. I moved both Italian into the red sea.

then CW DOW me. and I never used them again

_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 329
RE: AI for MWiF-Italy - 7/23/2013 7:57:12 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 1413
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
Continuing the question of on whom and when Italy should DOW on, case CW only. Usually the main reasons for just declaring war on CW for Italy are:

1) Avoid fighting with France
--a. In som small cases forcing FR to declare war on IT, possible gain US-entry
--b. possibly gaining a second chance for a new surprise round against FR with later declaration of war on FR (it might even be without a US-entry hit)
--c. Only face one navy instead of two


2) Getting IT to become an active major power
--a. letting GE resources to be sent to IT
--b. getting normal action limits
--c. easier to conquer minors

3) Attacking and CW minors and territory

4) Euro Axis concentrating on CW
--a. Deploying GE troops to the Mediterranean (possibly to be able to also attack FR holdings)
--b. Assisting GE to attack BEF in France/Belgium, possibly with air force only.

5) Attacking CW ships

6) Allowing GE troops to attack southern France

7) …

The downside is of course
--a The risk of more US Entry hits if IT DOW FR
--b Getting hit by a surprise round (if FR DOW IT)
--c Not getting the chance to attack FR until war

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 7/23/2013 8:03:24 PM >


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