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A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT

 
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A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 10/31/2005 3:14:06 AM   
Fallshirmjager

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/13/2005
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The only way i think in which to solve the super soldiers or any super unit is in the way their created in the first place. the current method of the tech table is just a way to lump all the units getting researched in one form rather than how it should be. What i dont understand is that certaion units cannot be built in certain contries, yet those same units can be researched IE research points can be produced to up the units attributes in those countries where the ubit itself cant be built.that is where the problem lies. if units were only able to be researched where they are produced it would make a more realistic game making it harder to get the super soldiers. But on the other hand you would also have to allow for the building of troops in conquered countries then also. the waffen ss recruited many foreign volunteers from denmark, norway, finland, sweden (wiking division) and france. one of hitlers biggest mistakes and the downfall of nazism was its racism. if hitler would have recruited the anti-bolshevik ukrainians, belorussians, estonians, latvians, lithuanians he would have 4 million additional troops instead he chose to waste em thru the totenkopf and pointless slave labor.
what i suggest is something along the lines as the system used in medieval total war to up techs and build units.
ie a sub can only be built in e/w germ. and italy so accordingly can only be researched their. to me it doesnt make sense to be able to buy research or research U-571 in kiev. i dont think doenitz wouldve moved the labs to the ukraine.
also then if the game is to offer an alternate timeline i believe the building of militia or infantry should also be allowed in axis or allied conquered countries. hitler and heydrich mighta ordered the killings of the sub-humensch but id recruit if i was at the helm.
also it would be good if italy and rumania had their own identities and icons with their own units that had their own individual attributes. why should militia which can never be researched be allowed only to be built in these countires. were the italians and rumanians the lesser of the troops that came from india. which by the way were mostly comprised of the native peoples of that area. there are the nations flags on the production table why not have the research available also on that nations table?
would it be difficult to ammend this and set up a new production research method say in a world at war 2.
i may be wrong here but i dont recall any new zealanders, aussies or indian regiments hitting the beaches at dieppe it was the brits and canadians. to allow the wallies to build equal units in the uk canada the US and australia is the reason for the allied edge.

Post #: 1
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 10/31/2005 3:41:03 PM   
Davidovich Trotsky

 

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Super units only become super if you spend lots of time and resources into building them up.

When people are researching, they usually have alot smaller armies as a result and while they spend forever researching you could have around 1000000 tanks and invaded all their terrority.

(in reply to Fallshirmjager)
Post #: 2
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 10/31/2005 6:53:43 PM   
silodhlehan

 

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I agree it seems most research was done in 1939 borders. The supplies I can see, did germany ever use french or russian scientists to any effect?

It should be more likely to build militia units in the ukraine as some russian units did sign up and even defended normandy, barely. Maybe make an even lower grade of militia 'foreign conscript?'

The SS I think at the start of the war were excluded to a large extent from recruiting from within the reich.


However re the super units all you have to do is make the cost higher further you get from the start values or have the units cost more I mean infantry with a 9 attack probably takes longer to train.

Possibly say that a 5 attack/evasion infantry takes 2 turns to build, 6's take 3 turns, 7's 4 turns...,
10-10 bout the same as a carrier.

Then as you research them you can decide what to build. Kind of like you can now re militia vs infantry.

Even in the canadian army there were striking differences. The soldiers sent to hongkong were d Class.

Essentially barely trained, picture a bn after you take a bunch of civies and give them 6 weeks training.

Then you had those that fought in europe that were essentially on par with anyone.


Especially the germans had these differences some in normandy were using horse drawn wagons years after they tought the WA about lightening war. They had some pretty big differences. Some units got halftracks others walked.

Not sure what your comment means re the Australians. They do have one kudo that can't be taken away when faced with attacking panzers in tobruk they were the first troops to stop them. Hence the seige. I always thought they were about as good as you can get.

And Dieppe where most RAF airplanes in a day were shot down, where most RN ships in a day were sunk 'though mostly small landing craft' and canadas worst 1 day casualty total ever where my regiment fought, isn't something I brag about though, I think it was more a problem with planning and execution than soldiers involved. Monty wanted nothing to do with it.

However it had the effect of keeping large numbers of germans in garrison detail in france who might otherwise have helped at kursk etc.


re quality of troops the anglo african troops in Italian east africa, churchill complained about how they were not really equipped like a real army so he dared not send them to real combat.

I remember reading a book on monty and how upset he was while serving in india inbetween wars I & II that the army there didn't even have books on machine guns to them it was as if they didn't exist.






(in reply to Fallshirmjager)
Post #: 3
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 12:19:47 AM   
Fallshirmjager

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/13/2005
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hey guys, it was just a thought but if anything is gonna get changed if theirs an expansion it would be cool to see this-

1. that germany is able to produce infantry in italy and rumania (that are not german troops but italian and rumanian and have a different icon) there stats would be lower something like chinas or russias inf.
2. units that are researched have to be researched where they are built. it kind of limits a nations ability to up stats bigtime.
e.g. japan could not use the 3 p.pts in manchuria to research a zero being built in honshu but would have to use a research pt. in honshu or where ever a zero can be built. Like wise with the panzers where ever their built they can only be researched where they are built type deal.
3. units can be repaired in foreign countries where units were repaired historically. there was 1,149 major U-boat overhauls in the French bases during the war, 492 were carried out in the Lorient dockyard. so german subs should be able to get repaired and researched in western france.
4. some type of valor rating like medieval total war, every couple of battles they survive they get a +1 to their attack/defensive rolls. so if a unit survived without being destroyed theyd be pretty formidable, makes more sense than you could discern from which troops are the elite and which ones are not.
Sil you said some canadian units only had 6 weeks training yet units in the game dont ever see combat and their super soldiers. It would kind of make the game more challenging to not be able to just tech your troops with research points from rumania when you cant even build troops there. or tech cags and subs in the mid west or india.
i dotn know but a valor rating would be cool it could be another figure under the movement figure on the units icon.


< Message edited by Fallshirmjager -- 11/1/2005 12:20:02 AM >

(in reply to silodhlehan)
Post #: 4
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 3:19:51 AM   
Lebatron


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Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
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The super inf problem may take care of itself with the new patch. They took my suggestion and no longer jump America's production to x3 as soon as Japan attacks. Japan can and probably will attack the US in fall41 or the next turn. This is a year earlier than usual and will greatly boost Japan's economy through 1942. The result will be a much tougher opponent for the US and hence the US will probably need to build more rather than overspend on tech. Plus now some research needs to be expended on bringing the Allied transport level back up to 3. The end result of this may be fewer instances of 9/9 infantry along with everything else being high.

Resticting research to inside your borders is already kind of modeled in the game. For instance, as Germany, when you take the factories at Kiev and Bello don't you usually use them to make supply rather than research? If your using them for research your doing something wrong Sure, you technically can research far outside your homeland but strategic considerations force you to do otherwise in most cases. You would want supply manufactured close to the front so you don't have to waste rail moving it.

I like the research system we already have in place. It works well since this game is rather abstract anyway. I don't want any more realism in WAW in a similar way I don't want more realism in Chess. This tech system will work great once the right balance is found in the world standards, and the latest patch goes a long way to achieving this balance.

(in reply to Fallshirmjager)
Post #: 5
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 7:38:52 AM   
Fallshirmjager

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/13/2005
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leb,
yeah but if you dont wanna make it more realistic why'd you make the mods. ah what the hell i think im gonna just listen to my brother and waste my time killing dudes online in call of duty he thinks this game sucks. he might be right? im goin back to hearts of iron or ssi's panzer general this game s ok but it still ripped off axis n allies the board game. nuff said.

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 6
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 8:37:39 AM   
a511


Posts: 518
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline
quote:

The super inf problem may take care of itself with the new patch. They took my suggestion and no longer jump America's production to x3 as soon as Japan attacks ... Plus now some research needs to be expended on bringing the Allied transport level back up to 3. The end result of this may be fewer instances of 9/9 infantry along with everything else being high.


i agree, the patch did shift a bit back to the axis (finally ) and imo, less likely to come up with the super everything issue. so before we suggest further fix on the super unit issue, lets play a couple of games to see how good the new patch is in tackling this issue.

some of Fall's pts are good but we are more likely to see them incorporated in the game in WAW2 ...

AN

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 7
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 6:06:42 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallshirmjager

leb,
yeah but if you dont wanna make it more realistic why'd you make the mods.


The gemeral idea of my mod is not greater realism, but rather better gameplay. I achieved that by adjusting the map a little and preventing exploits.

My mod does have a better sense of realism but its not in the form you are referrring to. You are using realism to mean complexity. Take Gibraltar for instance. In my mod it usually remains in allied hands since I prevent the gamey attack on Spain. This is more realistic/historic. My exploit fixes make the game more realistic/historic. Take for instance the Prussian Gambit that unfroze the Soviets. I removed that exploit and debated with others why it was wrong to leave in the game. 2by3 now sees the logic of that debate. The end result of my changes is more realism in the sense that its more historic. But its never been my goal to add complexity to this game, nor can I.

Complexity is fine in itself when it really adds something to the play experience. Chess is the greatest strategy game and its a clean and simple design. But sadly in most games complexity is added just to appease complexity hounds. At first I was impressed by HOI. I guess it was the encyclopedia of knowlege that was included in research choices that made the game appear great. But after a while I realised that the game lacked any strategic depth. You just built, upgraded, assigned leaders, and so on. That was the meat of the game. A bunch of busy work was all it was. I felt like an accountant playing this game. Very little of my time was actually spent on the map thinking strategy. The strategy or lack thereof was nothing more than chasing after the AI's units to try and kill them. I began to realise it was an arcade game disguised as strategy. All I really ever got out of it was a sore ass.

(in reply to Fallshirmjager)
Post #: 8
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 7:19:59 PM   
silodhlehan

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallshirmjager

leb,
yeah but if you dont wanna make it more realistic why'd you make the mods. ah what the hell i think im gonna just listen to my brother and waste my time killing dudes online in call of duty he thinks this game sucks. he might be right? im goin back to hearts of iron or ssi's panzer general this game s ok but it still ripped off axis n allies the board game. nuff said.




Axis and allies didn't they let you sail from the Med to the black sea without worrying about turkey?

Does look similar doesn't it.

Doesn't feel the same though no one worried about super units in axis and allies.

I got it because I still love second front. Would like to see the entire war on that level.

Never liked the one in the west though. Can't remember the name. If I want everyone in tiger tanks make it so!



(in reply to Fallshirmjager)
Post #: 9
RE: A FIX FORE THE SUPER UNIT - 11/1/2005 7:46:01 PM   
Davidovich Trotsky

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 8/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallshirmjager

leb,
yeah but if you dont wanna make it more realistic why'd you make the mods. ah what the hell i think im gonna just listen to my brother and waste my time killing dudes online in call of duty he thinks this game sucks. he might be right? im goin back to hearts of iron or ssi's panzer general this game s ok but it still ripped off axis n allies the board game. nuff said.




I don't like neither of those games because they all ripped from World War 2, where is the originality?

(I hate it when people say things like that.)

(in reply to Fallshirmjager)
Post #: 10
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