Matrix Games Forums

Space Program Manager Launch Contest Announced!Battle Academy 2 is out now on iPad!A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!Pike & Shot is now available!Server Maintenance Battle Academy 2 gets updated!Deal of the Week: Advanced Tactics Gold
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/11/2005 6:26:11 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2520
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So don't know how you did it - but I'd wonder if it was repeatable ( in another game ) and hence do we know the pre-conditions for this strange event to occur ... I certainly haven't been "so lucky" in any of my games !!!



As for repeatable, the data in the posts above is from two Japanese games against the AI. I have written records of the first (to 12aug42) and a save for the second (as of 12 sep42).

In addition, I found a third save that is from an ALLIED game against the AI. Pullin the Japanese stats, I found

751 factory points with 90,000 armament points in the pool as of 31aug43

IF it produced at this level from 7dec41, this would produce 475,000 points by 31aug43
But the total points of reinforcemtns to that date is 1,215,000

A lot of units were understrength, but there had clearly been a LOT of casulties as well (remember AI playing Japan here).

Now getting back to one of Irrelevant's points (after all it IS his thread ): how many factories should you build? It probably doesn't matter whether the Japanese get more than than one armament point per factory or many units come in partially filled or there is some other pool out there. Given that you would like to generate full units most of the time instead of depending on the 25% "emergency mobilization" factor, the data that I have found seems to say that Japan needs more than 501 factories but less than 751. This is pretty much in the range that people were quoting above (way above by now ).

So after throwing away all of the numbers, tables and charts that I have generated today trying to predict this analytically, I think I will build up to about 650 and not fill out the IJ base forces which is where this thread started.

I love this game

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 31
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/13/2005 4:41:31 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2520
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
I have just completed some tests to try to determine the relationship between Reinforcement LCU and Manpower/Armament point usage. The results contain several interesting points and a couple of major surprises.

The Test consisted of Scen 15, non-Historical run Head-to-Head with all replacements turned off, all a/c in Stand-down and minimal TF movement.. It ran for two weeks and Manpower and Armament pool levels were monitored. The Manpower pool never went below 100,000 and the Armament pool never went below 19,975. “Load Points” are AP Load Points where there are distinctions made in the screens. Manpower and Armament usage from the pool is estimated by assuming that the new points added to the pool on the days reinforcements arrive are the same as the previous day. Detailed day by day data is available and the data for key dates are provided below (for the numbers people).

Surprising Points:
1, The 16, 17, 18 and 20 December reinforcement units all arrived at 53% strength in spite of the fact that there were more Manpower and Armament points in the pool than load points arriving, even at full strength values. The 14 December reinforcement units arrived at full strength as expected. Why not the rest?

2. The number of load points produced per Armament Point used varied between 6.3 and 9.9 where the Manual states it should be 1.0.

Interesting Points:
1. The Manpower points used from the pool were apparently slightly less than expected, with 1.1-1.3 load points produced for each Manpower point used (Manual states 1.0). This is probably due to the known variability in the calculation of “Load Points” OR to the fact that some LCU elements may use AP and others AK load points for the calculation.

2. For the reinforcements that arrived 14 December, the Reinforcement Screen predicted 3852 load points but 24,568 actually arrived with all units at 100%.

3. While the mix of units on 16,17,18, and 20 December were all very similar, the units that arrived on 13 December had a different composition (more support and aviation). Fewer Load Points were produced per manpower point but more per armament point, a not unexpected result since the additional elements would be manpower-intensive. While that makes sense, it is not in accordance with the manual which treats all Load Points (once computed) the same.

4. Even though many units arrived at half strength, there does not seem to be any “Emergency Mobilization”. If it had been there, the manpower and armament costs per “paid” load point would double for those days.

Non-surprising point:
1. The Manpower points and Armament points were added to the pools in accordance with the Manual (5 manpower points/center and 1 armament point/factory).

My Conclusions
1. Don’t wreck your economy trying to bring in all units at full strength; you won’t be able to do it anyway. If “Emergency Mobilization” really works, it will significantly reduce the number of armament and manpower points you need.

2. For planning purposes assume you need “about” one manpower point per load point produced and repair pop centers accordingly

3. For planning purposes, assume you need “about” 0.2 armament points per load point produced. Treat Emergency Mobilization as a safety factor. This means that you need an average of 380 factories working to produce all reinforcement units at full strength through July, 1943. Guesstimate how many losses you will have in that period (say … 650,000 load points or 26 division equivalents) and you get the number of factories you need (say ….570-600).



Data: The table below is hosed as usual



Date Estimated Manpower Used Estimated Armaments Used Predicted Load Points Actual Load Points Strength at Deployment Load Points/ Manpower Point actual Load Points/ Armament Point
12/14/1941 21496 2472 3852 24568 100% 1.14 9.94
12/16/1941 3672 772 9648 4840 53% 1.32 6.27
12/17/1941 5446 1146 14352 7176 53% 1.32 6.26
12/18/1941 5496 1146 14352 7176 53% 1.31 6.26
12/20/1941 1824 374 4672 2336 53% 1.28 6.25


(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 32
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/13/2005 10:07:57 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
mmm...my teatcher was right: i should have better studied math when i was at high school.....

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 33
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/13/2005 11:47:28 AM   
doktorblood


Posts: 647
Joined: 2/14/2003
Status: offline
What is "emergency mobilization"? and how do you activate it? I've had reinforcements arrive as low as 6% and as high as 100%.

_____________________________


(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 34
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/13/2005 2:36:36 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2520
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

What is "emergency mobilization"? and how do you activate it? I've had reinforcements arrive as low as 6% and as high as 100%.

I Page 183 in Manual (section 13.5). If the production system "cannot fill out" a newly arriving unit, it is placed on the map at 25% without any cost from the Manpower and Armament pools.

(in reply to doktorblood)
Post #: 35
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/15/2005 5:26:06 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 14045
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
I'm of the school that believes in filling out understrength reinforcements as they arrive in Japan, particularly the BFs. I hate sending a BF out to an island alone without any infantry support. It's too easy for a tiny Allied force to take them out. I start the game with replacements off and selectively turn units on as needed. Remember to keep a list of those turned on so you can turn them off when they are where you need them to be. For BFs though, I grow them to the max strength possible. They will have 40 inf/SNLF squads (in most cases) which will at least force the Allied player to send a larger force to take them.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 36
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/15/2005 7:43:08 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3427
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

I'm of the school that believes in filling out understrength reinforcements as they arrive in Japan, particularly the BFs. I hate sending a BF out to an island alone without any infantry support.


Depends on where the island is at. I have no problem sending them to Saipan, Iwo Jima, etc understrength and alone provided they are behind the main defensive line. Same with the PI and Borneo after they are captured.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 37
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 2:12:46 AM   
irrelevant


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
I just stumbled on a way to both deploy these units on the front lines right away where their aviation support is much needed, and at the same time leave them in the Home Islands where they will most rapidly fill out with additional general support and SNLF squads.

Load the Base Force onto a few APs. Once the BF is fully loaded, find the AP with the main part of the unit. Form this single AP into a different TF, then unload it back onto the base it came from. Set this part to accept replacements. Send the rest of the unit (which will have a greater or lesser portion of the unit, depending on how many APs you loaded it onto to begin with) off to wherever, while the main portion stays in the Home Islands, accruing support and SNLF squads.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 38
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 2:20:05 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline
Known as "Having your cake and eating it too" !!!


_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to irrelevant)
Post #: 39
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 2:52:51 AM   
irrelevant


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
Well, everybody likes cake

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 40
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 3:24:50 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6920
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
In my current PBEM as Japan I have units (INF squads, tanks, ect) in the pool but the rate for each is 0. Am I missing something?

In particular I have base forces sitting in Tokyo in Dec 41 waiting for AV support. I would like to be able to calculate how log I will have to wait until they fill out.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 41
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 3:30:29 AM   
irrelevant


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
The only pool that matters is armaments/vehicles and manpower. IJ does not build squads, devices or vehicles for the pool. IJ builds squads, devices and vehicles as LCUs qualify to receive them. Supplies are burned and the devices are simultaneously added to the qualifying LCUs. The items are built in batches of some particular size however, and the leftover spare change goes into the pool, as do any obsolescent items that have been upgraded, eg. 37mm ATG.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 42
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 3:48:02 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6920
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
Thanks. That make a lot more sense. I was beginning to worry that I converted a needed factory into something else.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to irrelevant)
Post #: 43
RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces - 10/29/2005 4:07:35 AM   
irrelevant


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
An LCU will take some time to fill out. Mostly you only get a point or two every couple of days from any one supply source that is in range. If there are multiple supply sources in range, an LCU will fill out faster. This is what makes the Home Islands the best location to fill out LCUs.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 44
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Filling out IJ Base Forces Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.081