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IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage!

 
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IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA... - 10/7/2005 3:54:42 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Perhaps some/many of us failed to note that there exists _HUGE_ undefended "empty" zone in AA coverage!


"Nikademus" and "michaelm" tested and discovered the following:

The dead zone lies between (not surprisingly) 6K and 9K feet.

Guns with max of 26K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 28K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 30K feet have a min of 8K.
Guns with max of 34K feet have a min of 9K.


This was countered with great mod by "Nikademus" (along with tons of other fixes) but all player who play "vanilla" (i.e. original) WitP have to deal with this!


In this thread I will post what guns and what units are affected by this for both sides.


Leo "Apollo11"


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
Post #: 1
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:01:39 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Dual Purpose (DP) Guns

Device  Name                  Ceiling
-------------------------------------
46      4.5in/45 QF Mk I Gun  41000
47      5.25in/50 QF Gun      46500
48      5in/40 Type 89 Gun    31000
49      4.7in/45 10YT Gun     32800
50      3.9in/65 Type 98 Gun  42650
51      3.9in/50 Type 88 Gun  36750
52      3in/60 Type 98 Gun    29850
53      3in/40 Type 88 Gun    23600
54      5in/25 Mk 10 Gun      27400
55      5in/38 Mk 12 Gun      37200
56      3in/50 Mk 10 Gun      29800
57      4.7in/40 QF Gun       32000
58      4.5in/45 QF Gun       41000
59      4in/45 QF Mk V Gun    31000
60      4in/45 QF Mk XVI Gun  39000
61      4in/45 QF Mk XIX Gun  31000
62      3.9in/45 M1931 Gun    39000
63      3.5in/50 M1926 Gun    34800
64      3in/50 M1922 Gun      32800
276     105mm AA Gun          36000
292     3in DP Gun            23600
294     4.7in DP Gun          32000
410     3in AA Gun            29800
452     75mm CD Gun           29850
453     120mm CD Gun          32000



Anti Aircraft (AA) Guns

Device  Name                  Ceiling
-------------------------------------
66      3in/20cwt AA Gun      25500
67      88mm AA Gun           31000
68      75mm AA Gun           25000
69      25mm Type 96 AA Gun   18040
70      13.2mm Type 93 AAMG   14800
71      40mm 2pdr AA Gun      9900
72      40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
73      20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000
74      1.1in Mk 1 AA Gun     19000
75      0.5in Browning M2 MG  14500
76      2 pdr Mk VIII AA Gun  13000
77      .303 Vickers  MG      6200
78      37mm M1933 AA Gun     13000
79      13.2mm AAMG           14800
80      12.7mm AAMG           10300
81      7.7mm Lewis MG        6200
272     13mm AAMG (2)         13000
273     25mm AA Gun (3)       14000
274     40mm AA Gun (2)       14000
275     75mm AA Gun           30000
278     20mm AA/AT Gun        12000
398     .303 Bren AAMG        6200
399     .303 Lewis AAMG       6200
400     Maxim AAMG (4)        6200
401     12.7mm AAMG           12400
402     Vickers AAMG (2)      8300
403     0.5in Browning AAMG   14500
404     20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000
405     37mm 61-K AA Gun      20000
406     37mm AA Gun           10500
407     2pdr AA Gun (2)       9900
408     40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
409     75mm AA Gun           28000
411     3in/20cwt AA Gun      25500
412     76mm AA Gun           29000
413     80mm AA Gun           28000
414     85mm KS-12 AA Gun     33000
415     90mm AA Gun           33800
416     3.7in AA Gun          32000



Leo "Apollo11"


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 2
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:05:36 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6587
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
Understand tho, that you do still take damage from the lighter guns tho, like 20mm and 40mm (which can be quite painful).

I most frequently fly my bombers at 6000', simply because it's useful vs. ships and AFs (no morale loss). And I -do- take flak damage (I guess from the lighter stuff).

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 3
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:27:29 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
Joined: 3/9/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Understand tho, that you do still take damage from the lighter guns tho, like 20mm and 40mm (which can be quite painful).

I most frequently fly my bombers at 6000', simply because it's useful vs. ships and AFs (no morale loss). And I -do- take flak damage (I guess from the lighter stuff).

-F-


Same for me

_____________________________

Nec recisa recedit

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 4
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:32:28 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25307
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
removal of the minimum altitude feature would, in all honesty, not make much, if any appreciable difference in the flak resolutions.



(in reply to mc3744)
Post #: 5
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:41:04 PM   
WiTP_Dude


Posts: 1434
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
Isn't working as designed? I've read that the big guns couldn't in many cases hit targets flying close to the ground.

_____________________________


________________________________________
I feal so dirty when I sink convoys with 4E bombers, makes porn feal wholsome. - Brady, Founding Member of the Japanese Fanboy Club

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 6
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:47:03 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25307
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
Yes. Its not a bug. its a feature Gary built into the code. Personally I think its too high. BTR has one too but its around 2000-2500 feet. However AA in BTR as a whole behaves quite differently from WitP. I removed the min alt feature in my mod, but I had too in order for the changes i made to work and produce the desired effect. In the stock scenario, it wont greatly impact things by itself.

(in reply to WiTP_Dude)
Post #: 7
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:49:35 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

IJA AA Units

Unit #  Name         Type
--------------------------------
974     31st         AA Regiment
975     31st Heavy   AA Battalion
976     32nd Heavy   AA Battalion
985     11th         AA Regiment
986     13th         AA Regiment
987     15th         AA Regiment
988     1st Reserve  AA Regiment
989     3rd Reserve  AA Regiment
990     11th Heavy   AA Battalion
991     12th Heavy   AA Battalion
1006    24th         AA Regiment
1007    22nd         AA Regiment
1008    25th         AA Regiment
1009    4th Reserve  AA Regiment
1020    1st          AA Regiment
1021    2nd          AA Regiment
1022    3rd          AA Regiment
1023    4th          AA Regiment
1024    5th          AA Regiment
1025    7th          AA Regiment
1026    2nd Reserve  AA Regiment
1027    1st Heavy    AA Battalion
1064    41st         AA Regiment
1065    42nd         AA Regiment
1066    5th Reserve  AA Regiment
1067    6th Reserve  AA Regiment
1068    41st Heavy   AA Battalion
1080    51st         AA Regiment
1081    8th Reserve  AA Regiment
1082    50th Heavy   AA Battalion
1158    22nd Heavy   AA Battalion
1244    12th         AA Regiment
1281    21st         AA Regiment
1302    49th Heavy   AA Battalion
1303    56th Heavy   AA Battalion
1324    55th Heavy   AA Battalion
1325    57th Heavy   AA Battalion
1334    52nd Heavy   AA Battalion
1346    53rd Heavy   AA Battalion
1347    54th Heavy   AA Battalion
1359    3rd Heavy    AA Battalion
1360    7th Heavy    AA Battalion
1366    6th Heavy    AA Battalion
1381    23rd         AA Regiment
1398    45th Heavy   AA Battalion
1399    47th Heavy   AA Battalion
1400    48th Heavy   AA Battalion
1437    16th         AA Regiment
1438    44th Heavy   AA Battalion
1455    34th Heavy   AA Battalion
1456    35th Heavy   AA Battalion
1457    51st Heavy   AA Battalion



IJN AA Units

1105    Truk         AA Battalion



IJA AA Regiment

##  Device  Name             Ceiling
------------------------------------
12x 276     105mm AA Gun     36000
12x 275     75mm AA Gun      30000
8x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000



IJA AA Battalion

##  Device  Name             Ceiling
------------------------------------
18x 276     105mm AA Gun     36000
6x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000



IJN AA Battalion

##  Device  Name             Ceiling
------------------------------------
8x  276     105mm AA Gun     36000
8x  275     75mm AA Gun      30000
8x  273     25mm AA Gun (3)  14000
24x 272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000



Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 8
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:52:58 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes. Its not a bug. its a feature Gary built into the code. Personally I think its too high. BTR has one too but its around 2000-2500 feet. However AA in BTR as a whole behaves quite differently from WitP. I removed the min alt feature in my mod, but I had too in order for the changes i made to work and produce the desired effect. In the stock scenario, it wont greatly impact things by itself.


True... it is not a bug... but unfortunately it is very bad decision...

Please look above at what, for example, IJN and IJA AA units constis of!!!

Therefore it appears that up until 9000-10000 ft (i.e. when you remove the bigger AA guns due to limit you discovered) the _ONLY_ AA weapon is "13mm AAMG"...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
I will post other units in this thread as well!

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 10/7/2005 4:53:28 PM >


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 9
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 4:54:30 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 4853
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
Most of the AA guns are under 26k, only 5 or 6 are over it. The DP guns though are all ( but 2) over the magic number. Sounds like unless your AA all upgrade to the feww type with a minimum level your covered.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 10
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:10:34 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

IJA Base Force Units

Unit #  Name       Type
-----------------------------
1871    101st IJA  Base Force
1872    102nd IJA  Base Force
1873    103rd IJA  Base Force
1874    104th IJA  Base Force
1875    105th IJA  Base Force
1876    106th IJA  Base Force
1877    107th IJA  Base Force
1878    108th IJA  Base Force
1879    109th IJA  Base Force
1880    110th IJA  Base Force
1881    111th IJA  Base Force
1882    112th IJA  Base Force
1883    113th IJA  Base Force
1884    114th IJA  Base Force
1885    115th IJA  Base Force
1886    116th IJA  Base Force
1887    117th IJA  Base Force
1888    118th IJA  Base Force
1889    119th IJA  Base Force
1890    120th IJA  Base Force
1891    121st IJA  Base Force
1892    122nd IJA  Base Force
1893    123rd IJA  Base Force
1894    124th IJA  Base Force
1895    125th IJA  Base Force
1896    126th IJA  Base Force
1897    127th IJA  Base Force
1898    128th IJA  Base Force
1899    129th IJA  Base Force
1900    130th IJA  Base Force
1901    131st IJA  Base Force
1902    132nd IJA  Base Force
1903    133rd IJA  Base Force
1904    134th IJA  Base Force
1905    135th IJA  Base Force
1906    136th IJA  Base Force
1907    137th IJA  Base Force
1908    138th IJA  Base Force
1909    139th IJA  Base Force
1910    140th IJA  Base Force
1911    141st IJA  Base Force
1912    142nd IJA  Base Force
1913    143rd IJA  Base Force
1914    144th IJA  Base Force
1915    145th IJA  Base Force
1916    146th IJA  Base Force
1917    147th IJA  Base Force
1918    148th IJA  Base Force
1919    149th IJA  Base Force
1920    150th IJA  Base Force
1921    151st IJA  Base Force



IJN Base Force Units

Unit #  Name          Type
--------------------------------
1033    Yokosuka      Base Force
1038    Osaka         Base Force
1041    Ominato       Base Force
1044    Hiroshima     Base Force
1045    Kure          Base Force
1048    Maizuru       Base Force
1051    Sasebo        Base Force
1055    Oshima        Base Force
1070    Chinkai       Base Force
1071    Rashin        Base Force
1074    Ryojun        Base Force
1089    Takao         Base Force
1101    Truk          Base Force
1108    Palau         Base Force
1112    Ponope        Base Force
1116    Saipan        Base Force
1120    Kwajalein     Base Force
1126    Maloelop      Base Force
1129    Camranh Bay   Base Force
1204    Canton        Base Force
1210    Shanghai      Base Force
1220    Amoy          Base Force
1223    Sanya         Base Force
1233    Ching Tao     Base Force
1236    Hainan        Base Force
1406    Bako          Base Force
1482    1st           Base Force
1483    2nd           Base Force
1484    3rd           Base Force
1485    4th           Base Force
1486    5th           Base Force
1487    6th           Base Force
1488    7th           Base Force
1489    8th           Base Force
1490    9th           Base Force
1491    11th Special  Base Force
1492    12th          Base Force
1493    14th          Base Force
1494    21st Special  Base Force
1495    22nd Special  Base Force
1496    23rd Special  Base Force
1497    24th Special  Base Force
1498    28th Special  Base Force
1499    31st Special  Base Force
1500    32nd Special  Base Force
1515    30th Special  Base Force
1524    33rd Special  Base Force
1540    26th Special  Base Force
1541    13th          Base Force
1583    10th Special  Base Force
1584    25th Special  Base Force
1585    27th Special  Base Force
1597    15th          Base Force
1751    101st IJN     Base Force
1752    102nd IJN     Base Force
1753    103rd IJN     Base Force
1754    104th IJN     Base Force
1755    105th IJN     Base Force
1756    106th IJN     Base Force
1757    107th IJN     Base Force
1758    108th IJN     Base Force
1759    109th IJN     Base Force
1760    110th IJN     Base Force
1761    111th IJN     Base Force
1762    112th IJN     Base Force
1763    113th IJN     Base Force
1764    114th IJN     Base Force
1765    115th IJN     Base Force
1766    116th IJN     Base Force
1767    117th IJN     Base Force
1768    118th IJN     Base Force
1769    119th IJN     Base Force
1770    120th IJN     Base Force
1771    121st IJN     Base Force
1772    122nd IJN     Base Force
1773    123rd IJN     Base Force
1774    124th IJN     Base Force
1775    125th IJN     Base Force
1776    126th IJN     Base Force
1777    127th IJN     Base Force
1778    128th IJN     Base Force
1779    129th IJN     Base Force
1780    130th IJN     Base Force
1781    131st IJN     Base Force
1782    132nd IJN     Base Force
1783    133rd IJN     Base Force
1784    134th IJN     Base Force
1785    135th IJN     Base Force
1786    136th IJN     Base Force
1787    137th IJN     Base Force
1788    138th IJN     Base Force
1789    139th IJN     Base Force
1790    140th IJN     Base Force
1791    141st IJN     Base Force
1792    142nd IJN     Base Force
1793    143rd IJN     Base Force
1794    144th IJN     Base Force
1795    145th IJN     Base Force
1796    146th IJN     Base Force
1797    147th IJN     Base Force
1798    148th IJN     Base Force
1799    149th IJN     Base Force
1800    150th IJN     Base Force
1801    151st IJN     Base Force
1802    152nd IJN     Base Force
1803    153rd IJN     Base Force
1804    154th IJN     Base Force
1805    155th IJN     Base Force
1806    156th IJN     Base Force
1807    157th IJN     Base Force
1808    158th IJN     Base Force
1809    159th IJN     Base Force
1810    160th IJN     Base Force
1811    101st IJNAF   Base Force
1812    102nd IJNAF   Base Force
1813    103rd IJNAF   Base Force
1814    104th IJNAF   Base Force
1815    105th IJNAF   Base Force
1816    106th IJNAF   Base Force
1817    107th IJNAF   Base Force
1818    108th IJNAF   Base Force
1819    109th IJNAF   Base Force
1820    110th IJNAF   Base Force
1821    111th IJNAF   Base Force
1822    112th IJNAF   Base Force
1823    113th IJNAF   Base Force
1824    114th IJNAF   Base Force
1825    115th IJNAF   Base Force
1826    116th IJNAF   Base Force
1827    117th IJNAF   Base Force
1828    118th IJNAF   Base Force
1829    119th IJNAF   Base Force
1830    120th IJNAF   Base Force
1831    121st IJNAF   Base Force
1832    122nd IJNAF   Base Force
1833    123rd IJNAF   Base Force
1834    124th IJNAF   Base Force
1835    125th IJNAF   Base Force
1836    126th IJNAF   Base Force
1837    127th IJNAF   Base Force
1838    128th IJNAF   Base Force
1839    129th IJNAF   Base Force
1840    130th IJNAF   Base Force
1841    131st IJNAF   Base Force
1842    132nd IJNAF   Base Force
1843    133rd IJNAF   Base Force
1844    134th IJNAF   Base Force
1845    135th IJNAF   Base Force
1846    136th IJNAF   Base Force
1847    137th IJNAF   Base Force
1848    138th IJNAF   Base Force
1849    139th IJNAF   Base Force
1850    140th IJNAF   Base Force
1851    141st IJNAF   Base Force
1852    142nd IJNAF   Base Force
1853    143rd IJNAF   Base Force
1854    144th IJNAF   Base Force
1855    145th IJNAF   Base Force
1856    146th IJNAF   Base Force
1857    147th IJNAF   Base Force
1858    148th IJNAF   Base Force
1859    149th IJNAF   Base Force
1860    150th IJNAF   Base Force
1861    151st IJNAF   Base Force
1862    152nd IJNAF   Base Force
1863    153rd IJNAF   Base Force
1864    154th IJNAF   Base Force
1865    155th IJNAF   Base Force
1866    156th IJNAF   Base Force
1867    157th IJNAF   Base Force
1868    158th IJNAF   Base Force
1869    159th IJNAF   Base Force
1870    160th IJNAF   Base Force



IJA Base Force

##  Device  Name             Ceiling
------------------------------------
4x  275     75mm AA Gun      30000
4x  274     40mm AA Gun (2)  14000
4x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000



IJN Base Force

##  Device  Name             Ceiling
------------------------------------
4x  275     75mm AA Gun      30000
4x  273     25mm AA Gun (3)  14000
4x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000



Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 11
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:13:11 PM   
irrelevant


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
Do the IJA 13mm AAMGs ever upgrade?

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 12
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:15:50 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Most of the AA guns are under 26k, only 5 or 6 are over it. The DP guns though are all ( but 2) over the magic number. Sounds like unless your AA all upgrade to the feww type with a minimum level your covered.


Those limits are what "Nikademus" and "michaelm" think - they are not established facts yet (until confirmed by Mike Wood).


BTW, if you recall I did some comprehensive bombing tests where:

98x B-29

or

98x B-17

or

98x B-25

attacked port with japanese ships.


Even if I put 5 regiments off AA to defend it (i.e. more than 100 big guns of 75mm and 105mm and that's a _LOT_) they caused little damage to attacker coming at 10000 ft (and above)...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 13
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:17:04 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Do the IJA 13mm AAMGs ever upgrade?


No (according to database).


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to irrelevant)
Post #: 14
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:19:26 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25307
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
Mike did confirm the rule's existance Leo and it starts, by formula for guns with a ceiling greater than 25,000 feet.


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 15
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:20:15 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Most of the AA guns are under 26k, only 5 or 6 are over it. The DP guns though are all ( but 2) over the magic number. Sounds like unless your AA all upgrade to the feww type with a minimum level your covered.


Also check the following - the two Japanese AA gunns are:

Device  Name                  Ceiling
-------------------------------------
276     105mm AA Gun          36000
275     75mm AA Gun           30000



And now which side in WitP gets "shafted" here?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 16
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:21:49 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Mike did confirm the rule's existance Leo and it starts, by formula for guns with a ceiling greater than 25,000 feet.


OK - confirmed then!

Now since we esablished without any trace of doubt that Japanese are _HEAVILY_ "shafted" here - lets change this broken rule!!!


Leo "Apollo11"




_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 17
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 5:43:52 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

US Army AA Units

Unit #  Name       Type
------------------------------------
2650    200th USA  Coast AA Regiment
2676    251st USA  Coast AA Regiment
2683    64th USA   Coast AA Regiment
2684    97th USA   Coast AA Regiment
2685    98th USA   Coast AA Regiment
2716    65th USA   Coast AA Regiment
2717    78th USA   Coast AA Regiment
2718    205th USA  Coast AA Regiment
2719    206th USA  Coast AA Regiment
2720    216th USA  Coast AA Regiment
2721    217th USA  Coast AA Regiment
2747    75th USA   Coast AA Regiment
2748    215th USA  Coast AA Regiment



US Marines AA Units

Unit #  Name       Type
-------------------------------
2652    1st USMC   AA Battalion



US Army Coast AA Regiment

##  Device  Name                  Ceiling
-----------------------------------------
12x 409     75mm AA Gun           28000
8x  406     37mm AA Gun           10500
8x  404     20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000



US Marines AA Battalion

##  Device  Name                  Ceiling
-----------------------------------------
12x 409     75mm AA Gun           28000



NOTES:
AA upgrades are as follow...

Device  Name                  Ceiling
-------------------------------------
409     75mm AA Gun           28000
->
415     90mm AA Gun           33800

406     37mm AA Gun           10500
->
408     40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800



Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
Forgot to add US Marines and AA upgrades - fixed now.

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 10/7/2005 5:51:08 PM >


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 18
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 6:19:31 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

US Army Base Force Units

Unit #  Name                Type
--------------------------------------
2141    101st USAAF         Base Force
2142    102nd USAAF         Base Force
2143    103rd USAAF         Base Force
2144    104th USAAF         Base Force
2145    105th USAAF         Base Force
2146    106th USAAF         Base Force
2147    107th USAAF         Base Force
2148    108th USAAF         Base Force
2149    109th USAAF         Base Force
2150    110th USAAF         Base Force
2151    111th USAAF         Base Force
2152    112th USAAF         Base Force
2153    113th USAAF         Base Force
2154    114th USAAF         Base Force
2155    115th USAAF         Base Force
2156    116th USAAF         Base Force
2157    117th USAAF         Base Force
2158    118th USAAF         Base Force
2159    119th USAAF         Base Force
2160    120th USAAF         Base Force
2646    14th PS             Base Force
2649    803rd               Base Force
2681    34th USA            Base Force
2688    804th               Base Force
2699    808th               Base Force
2706    19th USA            Base Force
2707    47th USA            Base Force
2737    18th USA            Base Force
2749    802nd               Base Force
2775    51st Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2776    52nd Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2777    53rd Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2778    54th Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2779    55th Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2781    71st Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2782    72nd Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2783    73rd Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2784    74th Aviation Rgt   Base Force
2787    111th Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2788    112th Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2791    131st Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2792    132nd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2793    133rd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2794    134th Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2796    141st Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2797    142nd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2798    143rd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2799    144th Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2801    201st Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2802    202nd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2803    203rd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2804    204th Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2806    101st Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2807    102nd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2808    103rd Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2809    104th Aviation Rgt  Base Force
2828    PAF Aviation        Base Force
2858    51st                Base Force
2859    71st                Base Force
2860    111th               Base Force
2866    807th               Base Force
2867    810th               Base Force
2868    811th               Base Force
2900    813th               Base Force
2901    101st               Base Force
2916    821st               Base Force
2917    823rd               Base Force
2918    52nd                Base Force
2919    72nd                Base Force
2948    822nd               Base Force
2949    828th               Base Force
2956    131st               Base Force
2972    53rd                Base Force
2988    73rd                Base Force
3000    842nd               Base Force
3001    857th               Base Force
3002    102nd               Base Force
3003    141st               Base Force
3004    54th                Base Force
3028    863rd               Base Force
3029    871st               Base Force
3030    132nd               Base Force
3036    872nd               Base Force
3037    873rd               Base Force
3051    55th                Base Force
3052    112th               Base Force
3057    836th               Base Force
3058    848th               Base Force
3059    849th               Base Force
3060    856th               Base Force
3061    870th               Base Force
3062    74th                Base Force
3063    142nd               Base Force
3070    839th               Base Force
3071    864th               Base Force
3072    113th               Base Force
3073    133rd               Base Force
3094    841st               Base Force
3102    860th               Base Force
3103    865th               Base Force
3104    868th               Base Force
3105    875th               Base Force
3106    103rd               Base Force
3117    805th               Base Force
3118    854th               Base Force
3119    855th               Base Force
3122    134th               Base Force
3130    858th               Base Force
3135    104th               Base Force
3146    867th               Base Force
3147    874th               Base Force
3149    114th               Base Force
3158    879th               Base Force
3166    869th               Base Force
3168    143rd               Base Force
3178    806th               Base Force
3179    880th               Base Force
3180    201st               Base Force
3191    866th               Base Force
3192    882nd               Base Force
3199    144th               Base Force
3224    202nd               Base Force
3227    203rd               Base Force
3232    204th               Base Force
3245    801st               Base Force
3297    121st USAAF         Base Force
3298    122nd USAAF         Base Force
3299    123rd USAAF         Base Force
3300    124th USAAF         Base Force
3301    125th USAAF         Base Force
3302    126th USAAF         Base Force
3303    127th USAAF         Base Force
3304    128th USAAF         Base Force
3305    129th USAAF         Base Force
3306    130th USAAF         Base Force
3307    131st USAAF         Base Force
3308    132nd USAAF         Base Force
3309    133rd USAAF         Base Force
3310    134th USAAF         Base Force
3311    135th USAAF         Base Force
3312    136th USAAF         Base Force
3313    137th USAAF         Base Force
3314    138th USAAF         Base Force
3315    139th USAAF         Base Force
3316    140th USAAF         Base Force
3317    141st USAAF         Base Force
3318    142nd USAAF         Base Force
3319    143rd USAAF         Base Force
3320    144th USAAF         Base Force
3321    145th USAAF         Base Force
3322    146th USAAF         Base Force
3323    147th USAAF         Base Force
3324    148th USAAF         Base Force
3325    149th USAAF         Base Force
3326    150th USAAF         Base Force
3327    151st USAAF         Base Force
3328    152nd USAAF         Base Force
3329    153rd USAAF         Base Force
3330    154th USAAF         Base Force
3331    155th USAAF         Base Force



US Navy Base Force Units

Unit #  Name       Type
-----------------------------
2121    101st USN  Base Force
2122    102nd USN  Base Force
2123    103rd USN  Base Force
2124    104th USN  Base Force
2125    105th USN  Base Force
2126    106th USN  Base Force
2127    107th USN  Base Force
2128    108th USN  Base Force
2129    109th USN  Base Force
2130    110th USN  Base Force
2131    111th USN  Base Force
2132    112th USN  Base Force
2133    113th USN  Base Force
2134    114th USN  Base Force
2135    115th USN  Base Force
2136    116th USN  Base Force
2137    117th USN  Base Force
2138    118th USN  Base Force
2139    119th USN  Base Force
2140    120th USN  Base Force
2879    31st Naval Base Force
2886    1st        Base Force
2890    30th Naval Base Force
2898    2nd        Base Force
2899    5th        Base Force
2906    3rd        Base Force
2907    4th        Base Force
2908    32nd Naval Base Force
2914    7th        Base Force
2915    8th        Base Force
2924    11th       Base Force
2925    12th       Base Force
2926    13th       Base Force
2930    10th       Base Force
2931    14th       Base Force
2933    33rd Naval Base Force
2938    15th       Base Force
2939    16th       Base Force
2940    19th       Base Force
2941    21st       Base Force
2944    18th       Base Force
2945    20th       Base Force
2946    22nd       Base Force
2947    23rd       Base Force
2952    24th       Base Force
2953    26th       Base Force
2954    27th       Base Force
2955    32nd       Base Force
2958    51st Naval Base Force
2963    33rd       Base Force
2964    34th       Base Force
2965    35th       Base Force
2966    37th       Base Force
2967    38th       Base Force
2968    40th       Base Force
2969    41st       Base Force
2970    42nd       Base Force
2971    43rd       Base Force
2983    36th       Base Force
2984    39th       Base Force
2985    45th       Base Force
2986    51st       Base Force
2987    52nd       Base Force
2992    44th       Base Force
2993    46th       Base Force
2994    48th       Base Force
2995    50th       Base Force
2996    53rd       Base Force
2997    55th       Base Force
2998    59th       Base Force
2999    62nd       Base Force
3009    47th       Base Force
3010    56th       Base Force
3011    57th       Base Force
3012    58th       Base Force
3013    60th       Base Force
3014    61st       Base Force
3015    71st       Base Force
3016    76th       Base Force
3017    71st Naval Base Force
3023    63rd       Base Force
3024    73rd       Base Force
3025    79th       Base Force
3026    85th       Base Force
3027    86th       Base Force
3033    75th       Base Force
3034    78th       Base Force
3035    84th       Base Force
3038    52nd Naval Base Force
3047    25th       Base Force
3048    68th       Base Force
3049    82nd       Base Force
3050    88th       Base Force
3055    66th       Base Force
3056    77th       Base Force
3067    71st       Base Force
3068    74th       Base Force
3069    87th       Base Force
3089    90th       Base Force
3090    91st       Base Force
3091    92nd       Base Force
3092    93rd       Base Force
3093    115th      Base Force
3095    53rd Naval Base Force
3098    95th       Base Force
3099    98th       Base Force
3100    99th       Base Force
3101    100th      Base Force
3114    104th      Base Force
3115    109th      Base Force
3131    94th       Base Force
3132    105th      Base Force
3133    121st      Base Force
3134    125th      Base Force
3140    110th      Base Force
3141    67th       Base Force
3142    102nd      Base Force
3143    107th      Base Force
3144    112th      Base Force
3145    113th      Base Force
3160    116th      Base Force
3161    117th      Base Force
3162    118th      Base Force
3163    119th      Base Force
3164    122nd      Base Force
3165    123rd      Base Force
3190    101st      Base Force
3198    9th        Base Force
3207    106th      Base Force
3208    72nd Naval Base Force
3219    17th       Base Force
3220    31st       Base Force
3221    49th       Base Force
3222    64th       Base Force
3223    103rd      Base Force
3226    30th       Base Force
3230    54th       Base Force
3231    83rd       Base Force
3234    81st       Base Force
3235    96th       Base Force
3238    29th       Base Force
3239    111th      Base Force
3241    28th       Base Force
3242    80th       Base Force
3243    114th      Base Force
3261    121st USN  Base Force
3262    122nd USN  Base Force
3263    123rd USN  Base Force
3264    124th USN  Base Force
3265    125th USN  Base Force
3266    126th USN  Base Force
3267    127th USN  Base Force
3268    128th USN  Base Force
3269    129th USN  Base Force
3270    130th USN  Base Force
3271    131st USN  Base Force
3272    132nd USN  Base Force
3273    133rd USN  Base Force
3274    134th USN  Base Force
3275    135th USN  Base Force
3276    136th USN  Base Force
3277    137th USN  Base Force
3278    138th USN  Base Force
3279    139th USN  Base Force
3280    140th USN  Base Force
3281    141st USN  Base Force
3282    142nd USN  Base Force
3283    143rd USN  Base Force
3284    144th USN  Base Force
3285    145th USN  Base Force
3286    146th USN  Base Force
3287    147th USN  Base Force
3288    148th USN  Base Force
3289    149th USN  Base Force
3290    150th USN  Base Force
3291    151st USN  Base Force
3292    152nd USN  Base Force
3293    153rd USN  Base Force
3294    154th USN  Base Force
3295    155th USN  Base Force
3296    156th USN  Base Force



US Marines Base Defense Units

Unit #  Name
----------------------------
2668    7th USMC Defense Bn
2671    6th USMC Defense Bn
2673    1st USMC Defense Bn
2686    3rd USMC Defense Bn
2687    4th USMC Defense Bn
2694    2nd USMC Defense Bn
2883    8th USMC Defense Bn
2897    9th USMC Defense Bn
3022    10th USMC Defense Bn
3045    11th USMC Defense Bn
3084    12th USMC Defense Bn
3112    13th USMC Defense Bn
3127    14th USMC Defense Bn
3157    15th USMC Defense Bn
3174    16th USMC Defense Bn
3186    17th USMC Defense Bn
3205    18th USMC Defense Bn
3213    51st USMC Defense Bn
3217    52nd USMC Defense Bn



US Army Base Force

##  Device  Name                  Ceiling
-----------------------------------------
4x  409     75mm AA Gun           28000
4x  406     37mm AA Gun           10500
4x  399     .303 Lewis AAMG       6200



US Navy Base Force

##  Device  Name                  Ceiling
-----------------------------------------
8x  410     3in AA Gun            29800
8x  408     40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
8x  403     0.5in Browning AAMG   14500



US Marines Defense Bn (on average - they differ a lot from one to another)

##  Device  Name                  Ceiling
-----------------------------------------
12x 410     3in AA Gun            29800
30x 403     0.5in Browning AAMG   14500
30x 399     .303 Lewis AAMG       6200



NOTES:
AA upgrades are as follow...

Device  Name                  Ceiling
-------------------------------------
410     3in AA Gun            29800
->
415     90mm AA Gun           33800

403     0.5in Browning AAMG   14500
->
408     40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800

399     .303 Lewis AAMG       6200
->
404     20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000



Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
I made typo - 409 device "75mm AA Gun" is only for Allies and does not appear in Japanese OOB - sorry!


< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 10/8/2005 9:31:58 AM >


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 19
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 8:36:09 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Mike did confirm the rule's existance Leo and it starts, by formula for guns with a ceiling greater than 25,000 feet.


OK - confirmed then!

Now since we esablished without any trace of doubt that Japanese are _HEAVILY_ "shafted" here - lets change this broken rule!!!


Leo "Apollo11"





Before we get too bent out of shape here we might consider that there is historical justification for this AA gap ... to wit the B29 strikes where reconfigured to go in at low altitudes in part to exploit this suspected gap ( and to avoid effects of winds and other reasons ) .. here is a first tid bit on this .. more from the "effects" side saying the gap existed ... specifically page 616 "auto-weapons fire was generally too low and heavy AA fire too high ... "

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aaf_wwii-v5.pdf


_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 20
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 8:49:41 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Before we get too bent out of shape here we might consider that there is historical justification for this AA gap ... to wit the B29 strikes where reconfigured to go in at low altitudes in part to exploit this suspected gap ( and to avoid effects of winds and other reasons ) .. here is a first tid bit on this .. more from the "effects" side saying the gap existed ... specifically page 616 "auto-weapons fire was generally too low and heavy AA fire too high ... "

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aaf_wwii-v5.pdf


In all books I read the B-29's attacked from lower altitudes due to so-called "jet stream effect" that made precision bombing impossible due to fact that bombs were heavily dispersed.

Also I never heard of massive B-29 (or other 4 engine or 2 engine bomber) low altitude attacks at day...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 21
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 9:30:38 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Before we get too bent out of shape here we might consider that there is historical justification for this AA gap ... to wit the B29 strikes where reconfigured to go in at low altitudes in part to exploit this suspected gap ( and to avoid effects of winds and other reasons ) .. here is a first tid bit on this .. more from the "effects" side saying the gap existed ... specifically page 616 "auto-weapons fire was generally too low and heavy AA fire too high ... "

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/aaf_wwii-v5.pdf


In all books I read the B-29's attacked from lower altitudes due to so-called "jet stream effect" that made precision bombing impossible due to fact that bombs were heavily dispersed.

Also I never heard of massive B-29 (or other 4 engine or 2 engine bomber) low altitude attacks at day...


Leo "Apollo11"



There were more factors than just the jet stream ...

quote:


He reviewed the pros and cons over and over. Misjudg-
ing it would mean unprecedented losses.
Pros:
a. accuracy, bomb pattern
b. greatly improved bomb capacity due to less fuel
required to climb to high altitude
c. less strain on still troublesome engines due to
shorter climb
d. eliminate 200 MPH head wind at altitude
e. pressurization problems eliminated
f. fly under clouds (possibly)
g. better radar resolution
h. element of surprise
i. Arnold wanted results
Cons:
a. fighters (maybe)
b. flak (maybe - Japan's AA guns optimized for high
altitude)
c. failure would mean an end to career and serious
setback to 20th Air Force


LeMay was most worried about the flak:

quote:


Only LeMay and a few operations duty types were
staying up. After a brief exchange of small talk, LeMay told
McKelway,
I'm sweating this one out myself. A lot could
go wrong. I can't sleep. I usually can, but not
tonight. If this raid works the way I think it will
we can shorten the war.
In a war you've got to try to keep at least
one punch ahead of the other guy all the time. A
war is a very tough kind of proposition. If you
don't get the enemy, he gets you. I think we've
figured out a punch he's not expecting this time.
I don't think he's got the right flak to combat
this kind of raid and I don't think he can keep
his cities from being burned down - wiped right
off the map. He hasn't moved his industries to
Manchuria yet, although he's starting to move them,
and if we can destroy them before he can move them,
we've got him. I never think anything is going to
work until I've seen the pictures after the raid,
but if this one works we will shorten this damned
war out here.(32)



Link http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/1986/CTJ.htm


As to lower level day raids ... page 634 of volume 5 referenced in my first post above "B29s went in at lower levels than in days strikes at heavily defended targets, at altitudes from 10,000 to 18,000 feet" [ these were the April B29 strikes against Kyushu airfields in support of Okinawa campaign ]


Page 637 ... " altitudes ranging from 12,000 to 20,500 feet" [ these were daylight raids on Nagoya/Mitsubishi ]

Page 640 ... " unusually low for a day light strike ... altitudes from 13,650 to 18,000 ... " [ Kobe on 5 Jun 45 ]

Page 649 ... " over Tachikawa ... bomb visually from 12,000 feet"

None of this is to "prove" there should be an invariable flak gap ... but to offer up possible explaination as to why there might be one in the game. I'd suspect that LeMay's fire bombing attacks, in part, exploited a temporary hole in the defenses, which like most tactical exloits can be adjusted for ( eventually ) by the defenders ... looking at all the B29 attacks LeMay over saw .. it seems that Japanese flak was rarely effective at any altitude. Perhaps their most effective defense was 25 May Tokyo night attack in which 26 B29s were destroyed by all causes though crews reported the heaviest flak of the campaign ( page 639 )







_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 22
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 9:39:33 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

There were more factors than just the jet stream ...

quote:


He reviewed the pros and cons over and over. Misjudg-
ing it would mean unprecedented losses.
Pros:
a. accuracy, bomb pattern
b. greatly improved bomb capacity due to less fuel
required to climb to high altitude
c. less strain on still troublesome engines due to
shorter climb
d. eliminate 200 MPH head wind at altitude
e. pressurization problems eliminated
f. fly under clouds (possibly)
g. better radar resolution
h. element of surprise
i. Arnold wanted results
Cons:
a. fighters (maybe)
b. flak (maybe - Japan's AA guns optimized for high
altitude)
c. failure would mean an end to career and serious
setback to 20th Air Force


LeMay was most worried about the flak:

quote:


Only LeMay and a few operations duty types were
staying up. After a brief exchange of small talk, LeMay told
McKelway,
I'm sweating this one out myself. A lot could
go wrong. I can't sleep. I usually can, but not
tonight. If this raid works the way I think it will
we can shorten the war.
In a war you've got to try to keep at least
one punch ahead of the other guy all the time. A
war is a very tough kind of proposition. If you
don't get the enemy, he gets you. I think we've
figured out a punch he's not expecting this time.
I don't think he's got the right flak to combat
this kind of raid and I don't think he can keep
his cities from being burned down - wiped right
off the map. He hasn't moved his industries to
Manchuria yet, although he's starting to move them,
and if we can destroy them before he can move them,
we've got him. I never think anything is going to
work until I've seen the pictures after the raid,
but if this one works we will shorten this damned
war out here.(32)



Link http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/1986/CTJ.htm


Thanks for info - I am still DLing that huge 100+ MB PDF...


quote:


As to lower level day raids ... page 634 of volume 5 referenced in my first post above "B29s went in at lower levels than in days strikes at heavily defended targets, at altitudes from 10,000 to 18,000 feet" [ these were the April B29 strikes against Kyushu airfields in support of Okinawa campaign ]


Page 637 ... " altitudes ranging from 12,000 to 20,500 feet" [ these were daylight raids on Nagoya/Mitsubishi ]

Page 640 ... " unusually low for a day light strike ... altitudes from 13,650 to 18,000 ... " [ Kobe on 5 Jun 45 ]

Page 649 ... " over Tachikawa ... bomb visually from 12,000 feet"

None of this is to "prove" there should be an invariable flak gap ... but to offer up possible explaination as to why there might be one in the game. I'd suspect that LeMay's fire bombing attacks, in part, exploited a temporary hole in the defenses, which like most tactical exloits can be adjusted for ( eventually ) by the defenders ... looking at all the B29 attacks LeMay over saw .. it seems that Japanese flak was rarely effective at any altitude. Perhaps their most effective defense was 25 May Tokyo night attack in which 26 B29s were destroyed by all causes though crews reported the heaviest flak of the campaign ( page 639 )


RGR.

But in WitP we have gap from 0 ft to 7000 ft (or 9000 ft) for heavy AA guns.

Attacking from 12000 ft (in your examples) doesn't seem so much unreasobable when enemy was almost on his knees late at war whilst in WitP we can attack almost with impunity from mere 6000 ft when hundreads of AA guns are willing and able and ready to counter it (but they can't due to "gap limit")...

BTW, are there any sources to give us data how strong was Japanese AA at those locations you mention (i.e. how many gun barrels they had there)?

- Nagoya/Mitsubishi
- Kobe
- Tachikawa


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 23
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 9:41:19 PM   
Twotribes


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As I can tell all the Japanese AA units have at least one aa gun that does not have the minimum requirement and fires into the supposed gap. Exactly what is the problem?

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RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 9:59:43 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

As I can tell all the Japanese AA units have at least one aa gun that does not have the minimum requirement and fires into the supposed gap. Exactly what is the problem?


What's the problem... heh... that's understatement...

All they have to defend from 0 ft to 9000 ft is poor "13mm AAMG" (0.5 inch machine gun). That's like trying to put out bush fire by pissing on it...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 25
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 11:12:03 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


None of this is to "prove" there should be an invariable flak gap ...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
BTW, are there any sources to give us data how strong was Japanese AA at those locations you mention (i.e. how many gun barrels they had there)?

- Nagoya/Mitsubishi
- Kobe
- Tachikawa



(1) Well now after some more checking - I'm thinking I may be wrong about there not being an invariable flak gap ... to wit: Ian Hogg's GERMAN ARTILLERY OF WORLD WAR II, page 155 "The Germans were probably the first to realize that there was a gap in the sky between the maximum effective ceiling of the light weapons and the minimum of the heavy guns; they were certainly the first to try to plug it. " I am continuing to hunt for the existence and reason for the "flak gap" ... but at this point I certainly couldn'y say that it should not exist.

Unfortunately, despite an hour of looking, I still haven't found the reason for the minimum effective altitude of the heavier ( 75mm and up ? ) weapons. So for now my "guess" is that most of these weapons used a timed fuse ( well I know that much ) and that this timed fuse had a minimum time setting. But, I haven't been able to verify that yet. If this theory is correct, then introduction of a VT fuse would mitigate the minimum altitude of the heavy weapons ( or at least lower it as the VT fuse might still have a minimum setting to ensure no premature bursts too close to friendlies on the ground ).

(2) No, the Airforce "blue" books I'm quoting above don't give flak gun totals for the Japanese cities, but I purposely skipped any city that was called "lightly defended" and included only those that were said to be "heavily" defended. Another intangible might be late war the Japanese knew where their cities were and they didn't have to ship the flak guns and ammunition very far, so those cities were more likely to have the heaviest defence, also any integrated air defense capabilities were most likely to be here ( versus early war overseas locations ) and what radar defenses existed were more likely to be here, etc. etc.






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RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 11:18:56 PM   
irrelevant


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Isn't the main problem for heavy AAA firing at low altitude one of tracking, pointing and fuse-setting? Relative to the POV of a fixed gun, an aircraft flying at 6000 feet seems to move significantly more quickly across the sky than one flying at 26,000 feet. I can easily imagine that such a fire control problem would have been all but impossible to solve with that generation of FC technology. Only automatic weapons can effectively engage in a situation where they have to rapidly track and point while firing.

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RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 11:22:55 PM   
jwilkerson


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You're very possibly right ... I do know Germans did not integrate "automatic" weapons ( 20mm 37mm ) into their directed AA fire ...

But if I throw a rock down range and it bangs into something - I would expect the something to be affected even if the something is only 1000 feet away ... I'm not an AA guy .. I was an FA guy so can speak with some authority there .. but as to AA still hoping to find attestable source that nails this one down ... but your logic is certainly sensible !!!



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RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 11:49:21 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Isn't the main problem for heavy AAA firing at low altitude one of tracking, pointing and fuse-setting? Relative to the POV of a fixed gun, an aircraft flying at 6000 feet seems to move significantly more quickly across the sky than one flying at 26,000 feet. I can easily imagine that such a fire control problem would have been all but impossible to solve with that generation of FC technology. Only automatic weapons can effectively engage in a situation where they have to rapidly track and point while firing.


Very true!

But heavy AA can be used in one other way (i..e not directly tracking targets) - they can be set to fire directly into path of incoming enemy aircraft which would then simply fly into heavy FLAK "cloud"...

BTW German 88mm FLAK was able to fire 20+ shells a minute (that's a huge rate of fire) and we can imagine 100+ of such guns firing into area, for example, 10000 ft (3000m = 3 km) above (even if we assume that Japanese guns were 2x slower than german that's lot of shells)!


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to irrelevant)
Post #: 29
RE: IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone i... - 10/7/2005 11:51:31 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Isn't the main problem for heavy AAA firing at low altitude one of tracking, pointing and fuse-setting? Relative to the POV of a fixed gun, an aircraft flying at 6000 feet seems to move significantly more quickly across the sky than one flying at 26,000 feet. I can easily imagine that such a fire control problem would have been all but impossible to solve with that generation of FC technology. Only automatic weapons can effectively engage in a situation where they have to rapidly track and point while firing.



Ok another tid bit ... page 156 of Ian Hogg's GERMAN ARTILLERY OF WORLD WAR II ... [ in reference to the development of the "gap filling" 5cm F41 ] ... "After some months of service the Luftwaffe concluded that the design was a failure ... it could not track targets fast enough ... " ... [but] it showed that a weapon of this class was desirable.

Recall from above that per page 155 "The Germans were probably the first to realize that there was a gap in the sky between the maximum effective ceiling of the light weapons and the minimum of the heavy guns; they were certainly the first to try to plug it. " which lead to the development of the 5cm F41 in the first place.

So this shows that tracking WAS one of the issues. And that the first attempt to ameliorate was a failure.

Also on page 156, we have "[the fuze on this gun] ... was unusual in having two settings: short ... 5 to 8 sec and long ... 14 to 18 sec ... "

I am still looking for fuze timmings on heavier AA but haven't been able to locate those yet - but it seems reasonable that they would have one ( since 2 is said to be unusual ) and that it would be in a higher range ( to be effective against high flying bombers - the main target of these pieces. But am still looking.

So we have strong indications of tracking and fuze issues as being the cause of the flak gap at this point ... thanks for pointing this out Ir !!!



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