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Alternative Barbarossa plans

 
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Alternative Barbarossa plans - 8/14/2005 9:29:40 PM   
Silvanski


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From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		I'm always in for alternative strategies... That's the fun of WIR, try out several "What if?" strategies...

Have a look at this thread in the Axis history forum

The writer did an outstanding job in creating this, complete with maps...
It's all about an alternate Barbarossa plan with the weight of the thrust in the south and going after Stalingrad first... Leningrad and Moscow will be finished off in 1942
I don't know how well this will work in WIR, as Moscow in 1941 is of the utmost importance.

In combination with WIR forum member "poopyhead"s Luftwaffe directive
"use the He 111 and Ju 88 squadrons to bomb the Caucasus into ruin. This still leaves the Stukas and Do 17s for tactical support of the panzers" well worth a try ...





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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 8/15/2005 6:25:16 PM   
Rasputitsa


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Status: offline 		Who will know how things would have worked out with a different plan for Barbarossa, however it is clear that the July 1941 plan failed because there was no agreement between Hitler and the German Generals over what should happen after the first battles on the frontier. Hitler, as stated in his original Directive, wanted to capture Leningrad and the Ukraine, then move on Moscow. The Generals wanted to go straight to Moscow. This conflict caused a delay in August at Smolensk and when Hitler got his way the Panzer Groups were sent off in different directions, as objectives were changed. By the end of the 1941 campaign, the Germans had failed to win any of the main targets (Leningrad, Moscow, or Stalingrad). The success of Blitzkrieg requires the concentration of force ( Guderian always said this ), Hitler's interventions resulted in force being spread all over the USSR.

I favour the early planning by General Marks (Plan Otto), which has a more equal division of Panzer forces between Centre and South, each gets 2 Panzer Armies. This makes Army Group South strong enough to cature Kiev, without diverting forces from the Centre. Each attack can use its 2 Panzer Armies to achieve encirclements (Historically Army Group South with only 1 PZ Army was operating one handed and Guderian's PZ Army was directed 200 miles away from Moscow to help). Using Plan Otto, Centre and South can converge after passing the marshes and concentrate an attack on Moscow. Each can protect the other's flank and concentrate together in a massive attack, as Blitzkrieg was intended. With Moscow captured, Leningrad will probably fall. The rest comes later. By concentrating on more limited objectives you can at least ensure that you win something. Historically the Germans sat outside the Moscow and Leningrad, in the snow, while the Russians fed fresh troops through Moscow with good rail connections. How different would it have been if the Germans in Moscow had been able to push forces out on the radiating rail lines, while the Russians struggled around front in the snow.

I have tried these options and Plan Otto works in WIR, admittedly against the AI. It has been commented before that the AI is limited, which it is, but then so where Russians in 1941. The main problem the Germans face is distance, time and supply, which WIR does very well.



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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 8/19/2005 4:20:33 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the plug Silvanski. Good gaming!

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 8/19/2005 9:04:46 PM   
Silvanski


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I'm gonna try this operational plan this weekend against the AI.

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 8/19/2005 10:14:26 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Status: offline 		It cripples the AI. I tried it playing both sides and I was unable to counter it. The Russian airforce is inadequate at defending the oil wells, even if you just put as much as possible in Baku. This really made the blitzkrieg on Moscow/Gorkii click, though. Viel Spass!

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/4/2005 8:41:55 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		I'm trying out this alternative strategy against the AI.
Here is the frontline at the start of Oct.5 1941 (first week with snow)
I followed the advance paths as accurate as possible.
AG North has reached it's stop line and 18 and 16 are entrenching. 4Pz has been withdrawn and placed in Velikye Luki and Vitebsk to act as a mobile reserve.
2 has been called in to bridge the gap between 9 and 4 which are also entrenching. 3Pz had trouble breaking out from Smolensk and it's role in the drive on Voronezh and Stalingrad was taken over by 2Pz, which was very successful in the battle for Kiev.
Therefor 3 Pz will be held in reserve in Gomel during the winter

The axis Leningrad-Smolensk-Orel will go in the defensive.

In the south the objectives have not been reached. For those who'll have read the operational plan on the link, Stalingrad is the main objective for the 1941 invasion.
6 and 2Pz (I put the latter under AG South command) have been advancing towards Voronezh but were met with stiff resistance. (the bulge was resolved by Oct.12 and the city is completely surrounded -no more movement will be made as the first snow has turned into mud) The panzers were supposed to move along the north bank of the Don towards Stalingrad and meet up with 1Pz coming from Rostov.
BTW, 11 received two Pz corps made up of Slovakian, Italian, Romanian and Hungarian tractors which proved very eficient in clearing up south Ukraine and the advance to Rostov. 11 will move to the Crimea later on where 4Rom is keeping an eye on the Kerch Strait and Sevastopol.

The Luftwaffe has been having a free hand so far. The only noteworthy appearance of the Red Airforce was in the Leningrad sector but the Finnish airforce, with its mixed batch of fighters and an additional gruppe of Luftwaffe Ju88's dealt out harsh blows on the Soviet airfields.
Note that the Finns didn't take part in the 1941 offensive. A couple of Wehrmacht divisions have arrived for inclusion in Finnish corps and are being readied for the 1942 attack on Leningrad.

During the advance in the Ukraine, 3Rom and 4Rom received Luftwaffe gruppen of He111's and have been making successful sorties on the Caucasian oilfields and Stalingrad industry.
As far as production and upgrading goes, I switched everything to manual, building lots of PzKpfwIII's and keeping JpzI and StuGIIIB in production in order to get enough replacements.
More advanced tanks will go into production during the winter.
Bf109's of Luftwaffe gruppen will gradually be replaced with FW190's so the older fighter types can be used to get rid of the mixed fighters.

The Italy/Africa front received a couple of full strength divisions and is being monitored throughout. A 3600-1000 ratio looks healthy and there's room for more reinforcements.

What strategy for 1942 is concerned... I'm a bit in limbo as what to do now...
AG North and Central will be deeply entrenched soon. They might be able to withstand any Soviet counterattack.
AG South is still 350-400 Miles from Stalingrad. It's getting quite risky to advance further as my corps will be turned into (deep freeze) piecemeal during the first blizzards.

Plans for the 1942 campaign as outlined in the link will need to be overhauled.
The ambitious strikes -first the Caucasus and Leningrad, and subsequently the grand finale in and around Moscow and Gorki- don't seem to be possible any longer if Stalingrad has not been secured in 1941.
On the other hand, Rostov has already been reached, which avoids the need for the double jump made in Fall Blau.

Oct.12 1941 now with rain... It's best not to move too many units...
That'll give me time to come up with some ideas...
I'll limit myself to small local offensives in order to secure Voronezh (surrounded as you've read) and strongpoints around the Don and Donets and await the arrival of springtime.

I'm anxiously awaiting the outcome of General Winter though...


Losses after Oct.5 1941 turn


Axis Soviet
SQ 6425 41137
AFV 876 4727
Guns 613 12122
Air 1518 10349
To be continued...





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< Message edited by Silvanski -- 10/5/2005 9:05:08 AM >

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/8/2005 10:26:33 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		The situation before the orders of 7 December 1941.
This resembles more a 1942 frontline...

Units of the 11th, 17th and 1stPz are at the gates of Stalingrad... but... there's blizzard conditions.





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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/18/2005 4:27:01 AM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		My panzers near Stalingrad got a good beating during the first blizzard... game over it seems...
But such is WIR that you can try something different

I definately wanna try to get the most out of this plan so I went back to the beginning of November 30 1941...
Hindsight is 20/20... I'll order the panzers to pull back behind the Don in order to survive any onslaught the Soviets wanna undertake in that sector. The panzercorps in the central sector have already been moved to cities some weeks ago.

Edited to update: the first serious counter attack by the Soviets succeeded in retaking Rostov, thereby shattering two Romanian corps.
There also seems to be a Soviet build-up in the Leningrad sector. Army Group North is put on high alert to deal with possible Soviet attacks to retake Novgorod.
1941-42 is always a "hot" winter

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 9/18/2005 5:17:09 PM >

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/18/2005 1:42:28 PM   
Morphy


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Status: offline 		That would be unrealistic - Hitler would have never agreed to withdraw any units. He was a mere moron. Nothing more but corporal serving in WWI.

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/18/2005 5:10:18 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		I agree. Elastic defense was not in Hitlers dictionary.

But there are more unrealistic things possible in WIR, like the unheard amount of He-177's and other equipment that can be produced. In a 1944 game I managed to put a fair amount of Me-262's in the hands of the Romanian airforce to protect the oil production against Allied bombing, and they were doing a decent job.
As you will know the Me-262 never appeared on the Eastern Front.

That's the nice thing about WIR: we can try "What-if?" scenarios.

Let's assume that in my current game the generals showed more guts than historically was the case and adviced their Fuhrer to spend Christmas at the Eagles Nest, together with Ms Eva Braun and the rest of his entourage, while they took control of the Eastern Front...

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/18/2005 6:31:33 PM   
Morphy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

I agree. Elastic defense was not in Hitlers dictionary.

But there are more unrealistic things possible in WIR, like the unheard amount of He-177's and other equipment that can be produced. In a 1944 game I managed to put a fair amount of Me-262's in the hands of the Romanian airforce to protect the oil production against Allied bombing, and they were doing a decent job.
As you will know the Me-262 never appeared on the Eastern Front.

That's the nice thing about WIR: we can try "What-if?" scenarios.

Let's assume that in my current game the generals showed more guts than historically was the case and adviced their Fuhrer to spend Christmas at the Eagles Nest, together with Ms Eva Braun and the rest of his entourage, while they took control of the Eastern Front...


As I said Hitler was a mere moron.

As a matter of fact Stalin was a moron as well, but at least he listened to his generals instead of sacking them. And when they disobeyed him he didn't dismiss them.

Me 262 could have appeared in much greater amount if not... Hitler of course ;) The moron wanted it to be a bomber and that's why production of this excellent airplane was severly delayed.

I agree it is 'what if' why we play the game ;) It would be as interesting as it is if you could only watch what has happened in 1941-45...

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/18/2005 9:19:08 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		Jan 18 1942

A Soviet infiltration attempt south of Voronezh was rebuffed.
Southeast of the Don is a no-mansland. The Soviets declined to enter the terrain left by the German panzer corps. They also seem to be happy just to hold Rostov for now.
I guard the railroad from Stalino-(north of Rostov)-Voronezh for the supply line into the Don bend.
A human opponent might have attempted a huge pincer movement from the Rostov and Voronezh sectors towards that railroad and Kharkov.

The Soviet industry and oil production have been hit. This has helped to limit Red Army counter attacks.

I impatiently await springtime though





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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/29/2005 3:29:01 PM   
pyguinard


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Status: offline 		... and how would you like to try those alternative plans against a real human player (like me) ?

< Message edited by pyguinard -- 9/29/2005 3:30:14 PM >

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/30/2005 1:02:38 AM   
Flanker Leader


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Status: offline 		a few months ago i let the german ai advance against a human soviet player which i promply didn't touch at all giving the germans a free hand, and not even once did they even get close to moscow! and i did this many times! (testing and such). so i long ago came to the conclusion the ai is programed to fight a very specific way with no flexability - even worse it is programmed to do worse than historically!

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/30/2005 1:11:20 AM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		Morphy: ...but you will know the German battleplan then I wanna try it some day but with my variable work shifts I can't make much time right now.

FL: ...1942 surely is gonna be an interesting year in my game against the AI

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 9/30/2005 1:20:14 AM >

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/30/2005 3:47:59 PM   
Morphy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Morphy: ...but you will know the German battleplan then I wanna try it some day but with my variable work shifts I can't make much time right now.


I guess you meant PYG... ;)

Anyhow, even if you try to play against me accordingly to alternative Barbarossa I'd play as usual. And it's easy to discern what German priorities are- the more armored corps in certain area, the more important objective...

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 9/30/2005 11:59:44 PM   
Silvanski


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quote:

I guess you meant PYG... ;)



Excuse me

Indeed the concentration of panzers will give away the objectives, and shifting them to various sectors too often is asking for trouble.

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 10/1/2005 11:20:06 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		Here is the situation at the beginning of the March 29 1942 turn. The snow is melting which causes mud.
The light blue line shows the extend of the Soviet advance during the winter. The continued strategic bombing campaign by the Luftwaffe's He-111, Ju-88 and Axis bombers during the winter has had its effect on Russian resources in so far that they were unable to perform a prolonged counterattack. (OK I also admit that the AI is rather daft and I learned from previous experiences in dealing with blizzard conditions)

The Soviet advance in the North was due to a voluntary retreat. The Finns did a limited attack in order to force the Soviets to send some units to that sector. Leningrad never was a key objective in this campaign.

Because I opted for an elastic defense, not much damage has been done to the Axis forces except the shattering of a weak Romanian corps based near Rostov.
No change on the Crimea where the Soviets still hold Sevastopol.

Although I failed in reaching the 1941 objective (Stalingrad) as outlined in the battleplan (see link in original post), the situation for the Wehrmacht doesn't look too bleak.
For the 1942-summer campaign I have two options as my panzers are in decent shape.

Moscow/Gorki or the Caucasus, which one will it be?

Losses:
Axis Soviet
Squads 9628 46233
AFV's 1081 5326
Guns 2337 13528
Air 6216 15230

Luftwaffe losses can be a matter of concern




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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 10/2/2005 1:53:55 PM   
Morphy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski
The continued strategic bombing campaign by the Luftwaffe's He-111, Ju-88 and Axis bombers during the winter has had its effect on Russian resources in so far that they were unable to perform a prolonged counterattack. (OK I also admit that the AI is rather daft and I learned from previous experiences in dealing with blizzard conditions)
Losses:
Axis Soviet
Squads 9628 46233
AFV's 1081 5326
Guns 2337 13528
Air 6216 15230


As a matter of fact when I play against the AI there is no blizzard turn - as Germans I usually don't seize Gorki so I stop a few hexes eastern to Moscow in October and dig in. A few turns of digging in is enough to discourage AI to do any offensive actions. Then in May 42 I attack and in June/Jule Gorki, Saratov and Stalingrad are mine. The Soviets usually loose approx. 100 K inf. squads.

Playing as the Soviets in 1941 AI is so dumb there is no need to cripple him in winter - I stop and do not attack as long as there is blizzard. Usually in summer I approach Berlin which falls in fall or winter. After winter 41/42 I have total air superiority.

After winter: go for both objectives: Gorki and Stalingrad. The AI is not very bright...

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 10/5/2005 9:21:04 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morphy

After winter: go for both objectives: Gorki and Stalingrad. The AI is not very bright...


May 5 1942, CLEAR.
North of Lake Peipus the Soviets advanced a bit closer to Talinn. Two Wehrmacht infantry corps have been railed to that sector. For the rest no change.
Four Shock armies have appeared in the Stalingrad sector.
The Wehrmacht has eight Panzer corps ready between Don and Donets, two of them incorporating satellite Pz divisions and StuG brigades.

With the "safe game" feature it's possible to try out various battleplans and your suggestion will be top of the list Morphy.

A diverting attack somewhere between Center and North (the Finns will also participate with an attack in the isthmus) while the main thrust will be made by AG South towards Stalingrad (Saratov is a possible option ---> oil) and the Gorki/Moscow railway. 4 Pz and 3 Pz will start their advance later and link up with the forces coming from the South.


< Message edited by Silvanski -- 10/5/2005 9:24:36 AM >

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 10/6/2005 8:19:43 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		OK here's the general outline for my 1942 summer campaign.
Some changes have been made since my previous post (3Pz will start from the outset)
Operations will start in 2-3 weeks time.

To follow the German's love for colors "Fall Weiss, Gelb, Blau" etc I've chosen Operation Rainbow , which will be a two-legged affair...

Phase 1 will be aimed at securing the Southern flank by capturing Rostov and Stalingrad and the immediate hinterland of these two cities.

3Pz and 2Pz will have the important task to encircle and destroy Soviet units between Tula and Voronezh.
A move towards Saratov will be also be made to act as a jumping board towards Kazan and/or Gorki.

Phase 2 will see the advance of 4Pz and the 2nd (which has been receiving panzercorps). They will attempt to bypass Moscow and link up further East with 2Pz and 3Pz coming from the Southwest, for the final drive to Gorki.

In the North the Finns will make a limited advance in order to cause a diversion. (Mannerheim agreed to do this during a good lunch with officers from OKH)
16, 18 and AG North (directly commanding a few infantry corps) won't do much more than holding their ground, but without being bound to any "no retreat" order.

I know I'll have to stick to the objectives I've set although some alterations will have to be made in the field as the operation gets underway.
Therefore phase 2 as shown is not the definitve plan.

Suggestions and comments are welcome

Phase 1 ________ Phase 2 _ _ _ _ _




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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 10/24/2005 12:27:58 AM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		Operation Rainbow started on June 21 1942.
The result of the continued strategic bombing campaign saw the Soviet oil production slump to 94. Their heavy industry and various weapons factories have seen some disruption as well.

On the battlefront Rostov was found to be abandoned
The map shows the extent of the Axis advance by July 26 1942.
2Pz and 3Pz are forcing their way North. Contrary to the original plan 3Pz advanced south of Tula. The pincer movement in co-operation with 2Pz was successful and saw the destruction of 4 Soviet corps and shattering of two Fronts.
Gorki is within reach but time is of the essence as the Soviets are starting to bring in more manpower and the panzers need to get fresh supplies.

Stalingrad is heavily defended but won't be able to hold out long (I hope)

In the North the Finnish troops made limited (unopposed) advances.
4Pz, 9 and 2 carried out limited operations in order to straighten -and thereby shorten- the central frontline. For that same reason 18 was ordered to pull back a bit.

The limited counterattacks of the Red Army seem to be mainly targetted towards Axis flanks, which saw the shattering of the two Italian corps brought in to fill some gaps... great allies duh...

Now the operations of 11 have come to a successful conclusion, resources can be sent to 4Pz in order to advance towards Rzhev and (hopefully) bypass the main Soviet defences around Moscow.

The chances of winning the war in 1942 look good for the Axis but I remain on my guard for any Soviet counterattack, especially in the South.





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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/6/2005 9:52:26 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		The battles have been hard but the war has been won.
On December 6 1942 the Soviet AI threw in the towel.
It shows that a Southern strategy in 1941 combined with an intense strategic bombing campaign is workable.

After a Soviet counterattack towards Rzhev, Velikiye Luki and Pskov I decided to let 4Pz (3 Pz corps and 1 supporting Inf corps) undertake a mad dash from Moscow towards Vologda and cut the Vologda-Tikhvin-Leningrad railway before the winter blizzards would begin.
This sealed victory for the Axis as the whole dangerous northern Soviet sector fell without supply and their frontline began to crumble.

Earlier the Moscow hexes were surrounded and subsequently taken all three in one turn.
3 Pz 4Pz 2 and 4 were the heroes of this battle.

Then, units of 2Pz and 3 Pz captured the Gorki-Moscow railroad and 1Pz was succesful in securing Stalingrad and assisting 17 in capturing Saratov.

A combined effort by 11 and 3 Ro and 4 Ro secured Maikop.

The map shows the frontline on Dec 6 1942.
Red dots with blue represent isolated Soviet units and shows where they attempted counterattacks. Blue dots with red are isolated Axis units.

Some figures...

................pop.....oil.....res

Total Axis: 302 152 172
Total Soviet: 311 64 60
Total 613 216 232
-------
Losses after Nov 29 1942 turn.
Axis 47353 SQ - 8292 AFV - 16689 Guns - 15587 AIR
Soviet 106058 SQ - 15541 AFV - 37269 Guns - 33357 AIR
-------
Axis on Dec 6 1942
total number of frontline aircraft: 6799
total number of ready aircraft: 5796 (85 %)
total number of damaged aircraft: 1003
average experience: 74 %

Number of divisions on map: 275
average experience: 85 %

Number of armor/arty units on map: 297
average experience: 83 %

Soviet Dec 6 1942
total number of frontline aircraft: 772
total number of ready aircraft: 537 (69 %)
total number of damaged aircraft: 235
average experience: 65 %

Number of divisions on map: 355
average experience: 60 %

Number of armor/arty units on map: 230
average experience: 62 %




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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/8/2005 9:04:19 PM   
Morphy


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Status: offline 		Silvanski, why did 18th army withdrew on May 26th?

Wouldn't it be better to put one strong unit there, support with Luftwaffe and get to the Baltic Sea? Then you would have cut off some Soviet units, you would have shortened frontline (that was the reason you withdrew). Units relieved there (in my humble opinion) should have been used to attack toward Lovat' and Volhov. After reaching the rivers, depending on situation you could have stopped and prepare good defensive positions relieving some units or you could have tried to cross Volkhov, break Leningrad supply lines and crush Soviet forces in the city.

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/9/2005 3:59:17 AM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		These are good arguments Morphy.
But I was so occupied with the situation in the South that Leningrad wasn't in the equation anymore... I wanted to avoid sending too many units North.

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RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/9/2005 8:53:26 PM   
Morphy


Posts: 228
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		If you had done that maneuver than you would have had more relieved units to use in south...

(in reply to Silvanski)
Post #: 26
RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/22/2005 4:30:47 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2160
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		Taking care of Leningrad first, dig in and then handle things in the South you mean?
Hmm... gonna try that plan.

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(in reply to Morphy)
Post #: 27
RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/22/2005 10:26:50 PM   
Morphy


Posts: 228
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Taking care of Leningrad first, dig in and then handle things in the South you mean?
Hmm... gonna try that plan.


Not really. I meant the best way to shorten a frontline is to surround and destroy all enemy bulges. The bulge created in north was an excellent situation how to defeat the enemy and relieve some units.

An offensive against Leningrad could be a by-product, so to say, since usually after a defeat your enemy has a weak front line, fragile to attacks. And there is one more thing: after a defeat enemy's units are not fortified...

(in reply to Silvanski)
Post #: 28
RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 11/22/2005 10:29:56 PM   
Morphy


Posts: 228
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Afterthought:

What I proposed was a defensive maneuver, not an offensive one. It could be turned into an offensive one if there had been a favourable situation.

(in reply to Morphy)
Post #: 29
RE: Alternative Barbarossa plans - 2/16/2006 10:00:42 PM   
SganAluf

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


I have tried these options and Plan Otto works in WIR, admittedly against the AI.




Do you have still, by chance, the map for WIR which displays the starting position for Plan Otto (perharps, some save from the beginning of the game ) ?

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 30
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