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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design

 
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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/28/2013 2:11:45 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

That is one of the more convoluted Vichy phases I have ever encountered, but it makes sense to come up with the craziest boundary cases when stress-testing.

However, correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't all those French-aligned & French-conquered minor powers become either Vichy or Free French rather than becoming conquered/controlled by other Axis major powers?

From the FAQ:

quote:

Q17.2-6 17.2

Q: What happens to countries conquered and aligned by France when Vichy is declared?

A: You roll for them on the appropriate row of the Free-French chart (see WiF 17.2).


From MWIF's Rules as Coded 17.2:

Each hex France controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of:
• the major power occupying the hex (if any); or if none
• that other major power or minor country.

[Deviation (taken from RAW8.21 draft)
• All Axis controlled hexes in Vichy controlled minor countries and territories immediately revert (see 13.7.5) to Vichy French control.
• Axis controlled hexes in Free French controlled minor countries and territories remain under Axis control.
• All Allied controlled hexes in Free French controlled minor countries and territories immediately revert to Free French control.
• All Allied controlled hexes in Vichy French controlled minor countries and territories may now be immediately reverted to Vichy control. Vichy France is hostile to all Allied major powers that do not immediately revert all such hexes to Vichy control.
• Finally all Vichy controlled minor countries France has gained controlled of since the start of the game immediately become controlled by an Axis major power nominated by the major power that installed Vichy France. The minor country is conquered if it aligned to France and aligned if it was conquered by France. If more than one minor country is available to be allocated they may be allocated to different major powers.]



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Post #: 2131
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/28/2013 2:13:40 PM   
composer99


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Ah, some changes due to RAW 8.

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Post #: 2132
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/28/2013 9:44:17 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

That is one of the more convoluted Vichy phases I have ever encountered, but it makes sense to come up with the craziest boundary cases when stress-testing.

However, correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't all those French-aligned & French-conquered minor powers become either Vichy or Free French rather than becoming conquered/controlled by other Axis major powers?

From the FAQ:

quote:

Q17.2-6 17.2

Q: What happens to countries conquered and aligned by France when Vichy is declared?

A: You roll for them on the appropriate row of the Free-French chart (see WiF 17.2).


MWiF is using the RAW8 Vichyfication process. The changes made there were primarily due to the difficulties that could arise if the NEI were ever to become Vichy. Under RAW7 in this case, Japan is pretty much screwed if that happens. This is why the power installing Vichy gets to allocate control of countries aligned to or conquered by France pre-Vichyfication, provided those countries do not go Free French.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/28/2013 9:46:29 PM >


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RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/29/2013 3:07:10 AM   
brian brian

 

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I was disappointed that LoC Vichy wasn't picked up in RaW8.

I can't say I'm really a fan of the simple system of having any country aligned to France be instantly conquered. It's an easy fix, yeah. I just hope it gets a good mention in the player's documentation that this will happen.

I've never seen players wanting to mess with the game by going for a Vichy NEI experience. The one country I have seen enter the Grey Zone Of What Do We Do Now With Vichy In Charge? is Yugoslavia. The Axis launch a S/O 39 invasion to keep the Russians out of Bessarabia, common enough. Then a combination of a couple bad land combat rolls, bad weather, and an attacking force on the small side result in the Yugoslavians surviving longer than France.

I wish this had been fixed differently, but at least it's fixed.

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Post #: 2134
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/29/2013 5:03:42 AM   
paulderynck


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It's not automatic. Only if Vichy. You can have a FF NEI if you roll well (or as the Axis badly).

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Post #: 2135
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/29/2013 8:03:04 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I was disappointed that LoC Vichy wasn't picked up in RaW8.

I can't say I'm really a fan of the simple system of having any country aligned to France be instantly conquered. It's an easy fix, yeah. I just hope it gets a good mention in the player's documentation that this will happen.

I've never seen players wanting to mess with the game by going for a Vichy NEI experience. The one country I have seen enter the Grey Zone Of What Do We Do Now With Vichy In Charge? is Yugoslavia. The Axis launch a S/O 39 invasion to keep the Russians out of Bessarabia, common enough. Then a combination of a couple bad land combat rolls, bad weather, and an attacking force on the small side result in the Yugoslavians surviving longer than France.

I wish this had been fixed differently, but at least it's fixed.

You hit one of my sensitive areas.
It was not "an easy fix".

The Vichy rules are long and were very difficult to code. CWIF had a ton of the other rules perfect, but there were numerous errors in the code for creating Vichy. Some of that was because the rules themselves had holes, which more or less doomed the code to failure when a situation arose that fell through one of those holes.

It's easy to write a sentence, or even a conditional clause, in English and have players able to implement a rule. When there are ambiguities, the players can usually work out what should happen. But the code has to handle all of the possibilities - precisely.

Here is the code which determines which units move because they are relocated or forced to rebase during the Vichy subphases. There's a lot more that handles the player interface where a player picks up and moves a units.

---

procedure Move_Units;

function DoMove(var U: TUnit): Boolean;
var
UnitMP: TMajorCountry;
HexMP: TMajorCountry;
SubCRedPart: TSubCountry;
FrenchOwned: Boolean;
FrenchControlled: Boolean;
Res: Boolean;
begin
Result := False;

if (not U.OnMap) or U.AboardTransport then Exit;

UnitMP := UnitControllingMajorCountry(U);
HexMP := Map.HexControlMajorCountry[U.Column, U.Row];
// ****************************************************************************
// French Owned is different from French Controlled. The latter might include
// units belonging to countries that are aligned to France.
//
// The following logic allows for French aligned Belgian units.
// ****************************************************************************
if UnitMP = VichyFrance then FrenchOwned := True
else if UnitMP <> France then FrenchOwned := False
else if U.Country <> France.ID then FrenchOwned := False
else FrenchOwned := True;

FrenchControlled := (UnitMP = VichyFrance) or (UnitMP = France);

case Game.VichySubPhase of
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// The owning player moves every non-French controlled land and aircraft unit in
// a Vichy French hex to the nearest hex in which it can stack that is
// controlled by its major power, or a co-operating major power, or their
// aligned minors. Land and air units controlled by France, but not owned by
// France, which are in a Vichy controlled hex, are moved to the Conquered Pool.
//
// Non-French oil and build points and synthetic oil plants that are in Vichy
// France, become Vichy French units.
// ****************************************************************************
vspMoveNonFrenchLandAir:
begin
if (HexMP = VichyFrance) and
(U.UnitType in [utOilPoints, utBuildPoints]) then
begin
ChangeSourceCountry(U, VichyFrance.ID);
Res := False;
end
else if (HexMP = VichyFrance) and
(U.UnitType = utSynthOil) then
begin
ChangeCountry(U, VichyFrance.ID); // If rebuilt, it is Free French.
Res := False;
end
else Res := U.OnLand and
((U is TLandUnit) or
(U is TAirUnit)) and
(U.UnitType <> utPartisan) and
(HexMP = VichyFrance) and
(not FrenchOwned);
end;
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// Rebase every non-French controlled naval unit in Vichy France territories or
// minor countries to the nearest friendly controlled port within double the
// range of the rebasing naval units. If there is no friendly base in which it
// can stack within double the naval unit’s range, it is destroyed.
// ****************************************************************************
vspMoveNonFrenchNaval:
Res := (U is TNavalUnit) and
U.OnLand and
(HexMP = VichyFrance) and
(not FrenchControlled);
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government moves every French
// controlled unit at sea (even those disorganized) to the nearest Vichy or Free
// French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which
// they may stack. If naval units cannot return to a port within range, they
// are destroyed.
// ****************************************************************************
vspMoveFrenchAtSea: Res := FrenchControlled and U.AtSea;
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government moves every French
// controlled land or aircraft unit in a hex controlled by an Axis major power
// to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free France.
//
// French Oil points, Build points, and Synthetic oil plants that end up in Axis
// controlled hexes, change ownership to the Axis major power that controls the
// hex in which the units reside.
// ****************************************************************************
vspMoveFrenchLandAirAxis:
begin
if (U.UnitType = utPartisan) and (HexMP = VichyFrance) then
begin
SubCRedPart := TSubCountry(Countries[U.Country]);

if SubCRedPart.RedPartisans then
begin
// ****************************************************************************
// If the partisan belongs to a Red Partisan country, then it needs to be given
// to an Allied major power.
// ****************************************************************************
ChangeCountry(U, SubCRedPart.ControllingPartisanCountry.ID);
Res := False;
end
else
begin // Non-Red partisan units are simply deleted.
DeleteUnit(U);
PrepareMoveRemovedPool(U);
Res := False;
end;
end
else if FrenchControlled and
(HexMP <> VichyFrance) and
(HexMP <> nil) and
(HexMP.Side = sdAxis) and
(U.UnitType in [utOilPoints, utBuildPoints]) then
begin
ChangeSourceCountry(U, HexMP.ID);
Res := False;
end
else if FrenchControlled and
(HexMP <> VichyFrance) and
(HexMP <> nil) and
(HexMP.Side = sdAxis) and
(U.UnitType = utSynthOil) then
begin
ChangeCountry(U, HexMP.ID); // If rebuilt, it is Free French.
Res := False;
end
else
Res := ((U is TLandUnit) or
(U is TAirUnit)) and
FrenchControlled and
(HexMP <> VichyFrance) and
(HexMP <> nil) and
(HexMP.Side = sdAxis) and
(U.UnitType <> utPartisan);
end;

vspMoveFrenchNavalAxis:
begin
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// Rebase every French controlled naval unit in a hex controlled by an Axis
// major power to the nearest port within double their range controlled by Vichy
// France or Free France. They are destroyed if this is not possible.
// ****************************************************************************
Res := (U is TNavalUnit) and
(HexMP <> VichyFrance) and
(HexMP <> nil) and
(HexMP.Side = sdAxis);

if Res then
begin
Res := FrenchControlled;
end;
end;

vspMoveFrenchLandAirAllied:
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an
// Allied major power. French controlled land and air units are moved to the
// nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex.

// French Oil points, Build points, and Synthetic oil plants that end up in
// Allied controlled hexes, are unaffected. If Free France exists, these units
// remain Free French. If Free France does not exist, then these units are
// removed from the game just like all other Free French units.
// ****************************************************************************
Res := ((U is TLandUnit) or
(U is TAirUnit)) and
FrenchControlled and
(HexMP <> France) and
(HexMP <> nil) and
(HexMP.Side = sdAllied);

vspMoveFrenchNavalAllied:
// ****************************************************************************
// RAC 17.3
// The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an
// Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their
// range to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex.
// ****************************************************************************
Res := (U is TNavalUnit) and
FrenchControlled and
(HexMP <> France) and
(HexMP <> nil) and
(HexMP.Side = sdAllied);

else Res := False;
end; // End of case Game.VichySubPhase.
// ****************************************************************************
// Res = True means that the unit qualified to be moved to either the
// RelocateStack, the ReturnToBaseStack, or the RebaseStack.
// ****************************************************************************
if Res then
begin
if Game.VichySubPhase = vspMoveNonFrenchLandAir then
begin
if not FrenchControlled then U.MoveToRelocateStack(False)
else U.MoveToConqueredPool; // Non-French units aligned to France.
end
else if Game.VichySubPhase in [vspMoveFrenchLandAirAxis,
vspMoveFrenchLandAirAllied] then
U.MoveToRelocateStack(False) // Inform all players.
else if Game.VichySubPhase = vspMoveFrenchAtSea then
begin
U.Sentry := False;
U.MoveToReturnToBaseStack(False); // Inform all players.
end
// ****************************************************************************
// vspMoveFrenchNavalAxis, vspMoveFrenchNavalAllied, vspMoveNonFrenchNaval.
// ****************************************************************************
else
begin
U.MoveToRebaseStack(False); // Inform all players.
end;

Result := True;
end;
end;

begin
// ****************************************************************************
// Move_Units.
// ****************************************************************************
if MapStacks.CountEachUnitReverse(@DoMove) > 0 then CheckSupply;
end;


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 2136
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/30/2013 2:41:22 AM   
brian brian

 

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I didn't mean in Matrix WiF, where the best solution is to stick with the future rule. I meant in the WiF rules in general in the coming new rule set. Take my example of Yugoslavia. Say in real life the Serbs mount a brilliant defense but are besieged in the Belgrade area by their many neighboring enemies. Do you really think they would surrender just because the French threw in the towel?

The whole align-minors-to-Majors makes the game system work with the action limits, one of the cores of the design. But when it comes to moving minor country armies, there is a problem. With this new rule, you would want to always align a minor attacked early on to the CW. But then you must choose at the start of a new turn - move the Royal Navy to cover global needs, or move the newly called-up minor country reinforcement unit to cover a critical spot? Instead of an Axis-go, Minor-go, you can frequently end up with Axis-go, Royal Navy-go, Axis-go, minor country-go, unless you align a minor to France. You see this right at the start in Poland a little.

I don't see that changing, but I think a better solution, and just as simple, would be to simply allow an attacked minor aligned to France to change alignment upon installation of Vichy. Just my opinion. WiF is my favorite wargame by a long ways, but in places it can show reality problems imo. The action limit system is realistic I think, but the minor country alignment system isn't always just exactly perfect.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2137
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/30/2013 3:45:44 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4143
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I didn't mean in Matrix WiF, where the best solution is to stick with the future rule. I meant in the WiF rules in general in the coming new rule set. Take my example of Yugoslavia. Say in real life the Serbs mount a brilliant defense but are besieged in the Belgrade area by their many neighboring enemies. Do you really think they would surrender just because the French threw in the towel?

Some rules are there to discourage doing strange things for some gamey reason. If your gamey reason is good enough, then accept the consequences. Otherwise, align them to the CW, eliminate your "real life" concerns, and be done with it! It's your choice.

And the action limit system is remarkably UNrealistic, but it sure makes the game work.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/30/2013 3:47:24 AM >


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Post #: 2138
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/30/2013 4:09:04 AM   
brian brian

 

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when I read WWII history, I frequently see "action limits" at work in the real war, and I think the system is a good one, though at some points in the game it can have flaws. WiF is simulating what it is like to be the leader pictured on the front of the box. but the theory and philosophy of the game are not what this thread is about, and such questions would be better discussed over pints somewhere.

the MWiF game interface design process seems to have once again stepped up here and colorized a grey area in the game.

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Post #: 2139
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 1/30/2013 7:02:23 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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Of course you are right here that the action limits for use for minor units seems a little strange, especially if that minor has been attacked during the previous impulse and there are only minor units on that side in the country, who are commanded by their own generals. However, I don't think you can fix this. How to define action limits for minors? That is a very difficult thing to do. Or should you let those countries action limits be for combined impulses only (say 1 naval, 1 air, 2 land moves, 1 land attack, rail to be counted against the Major Powers limits) per country an impulse? Should there be differences between the limits for example Spain as compared to Bulgaria? How to go with that is very, very difficult. I don't think any rules committee can get a good solution for this.

Why should a minor surrender, when the controlling major power is conquered or becomes Vichy? I think this is a flaw in the rules. Personally, I would suggest that a minor country should be able to choose another controlling Major Power on the same side in that case, provided it isn't conquered already.

However, these are considerations for the rules committee to take into account for RAW8...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/30/2013 7:04:26 PM >


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Post #: 2140
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/20/2013 11:03:36 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18241
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
This thread has a lot of information on the Player Interface Design - probably too much to read through. But I thought I would revive it anyway.

There have been some questions about playing MWIF using different computer system configurations. Here are 4 pages from the Players Manual that discuss some alternatives.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 2141
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/20/2013 11:04:36 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18241
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
And the next 2 pages.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2142
RE: MWIF Game Interface Design - 9/21/2013 12:52:05 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 2668
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: online
This Vichy crap is getting on my nerves I have a solution for Vichy, destroy France and Vichy next and you wont have to worry about what goes where and who aligns with whom or who.

Bo

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2143
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