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RE: When? - 2/14/2012 5:17:50 PM   
bo

 

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Joined: 5/1/2009
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Cruss it is good to see your still here if nothing else you sure will light up the posting war as usual. Been kinda dull without you I for one respect your opinions and the right to say them. As for capitals I bought a new keyboard without caps lock hopefully it will improve my posts and even an old dog like me has room for improvement and again thank you for correcting me deeply appreciated. Last comment for all of snide remarks about the game and Matrix you make you seem to be hanging around for some reason I cannot fathom, could you enlighten all of us PLEASE!

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/14/2012 5:57:22 PM >

(in reply to BallyJ)
Post #: 2581
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 5:22:46 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.

First part YES second part don't blame you on that one

Bo

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2582
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 5:50:55 PM   
Kermitt

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.

The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.



Hello everyone,

I have been watching this forum on and off for years now and until now I have never posted. Posting on forums is not my thing, so don't get used to it ;). But I am in a good mood today and thought this post warranted a word (intended for Steve, I could not care less about responding to Manic ).

I have played WiF thrice (yep, only 3 times) since I bought it maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I have never been to a WiF event, been part of a player group or maillist or forum (before today) or participated in any other way.

Nevertheless, I will most certainly buy this game when it comes out.

I very much doubt I am an exeption. I know a couple friends, just as unknown to "the WiF community" as me that might also buy it. There must be hundreds or thousands like me.

In short: keep it up!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2583
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 5:54:38 PM   
Orm


Posts: 5465
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kermitt


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.

The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.



Hello everyone,

I have been watching this forum on and off for years now and until now I have never posted. Posting on forums is not my thing, so don't get used to it ;). But I am in a good mood today and thought this post warranted a word (intended for Steve, I could not care less about responding to Manic ).

I have played WiF thrice (yep, only 3 times) since I bought it maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I have never been to a WiF event, been part of a player group or maillist or forum (before today) or participated in any other way.

Nevertheless, I will most certainly buy this game when it comes out.

I very much doubt I am an exeption. I know a couple friends, just as unknown to "the WiF community" as me that might also buy it. There must be hundreds or thousands like me.

In short: keep it up!

Welcome to the forum Kermitt.

_____________________________

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

(in reply to Kermitt)
Post #: 2584
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 6:10:57 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
Kermitt welcome to our forums, whether you post or not. In the last few days since Steve gave a possible tenative date the forums seem to be getting energized. Out side of Red Prince's great AAR its been dull as hell the last few months. Please post more, negative or positive it does not matter. hmmmm, on second thought, oh well just post please. You are three games up on me playing as I have never played this game even though I have purchased ADG's Wif computer game. Its playable with some mistakes that will never be rectified because ADG does not back it anymore, shame really. Compared to Steve's and Matix version its like day and night, with adg's being the darkest of nights.

Bo

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2585
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 6:54:56 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 17932
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kermitt


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.

The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.



Hello everyone,

I have been watching this forum on and off for years now and until now I have never posted. Posting on forums is not my thing, so don't get used to it ;). But I am in a good mood today and thought this post warranted a word (intended for Steve, I could not care less about responding to Manic ).

I have played WiF thrice (yep, only 3 times) since I bought it maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I have never been to a WiF event, been part of a player group or maillist or forum (before today) or participated in any other way.

Nevertheless, I will most certainly buy this game when it comes out.

I very much doubt I am an exeption. I know a couple friends, just as unknown to "the WiF community" as me that might also buy it. There must be hundreds or thousands like me.

In short: keep it up!

Let me add my welcome to the forum.

I agree that there are likely to be a lot of people like you who will be interested in MWIF. Given your 'experience' with WIF, do you have any concerns about MWIF? I have tried to anticipate what those concerns might be, but I would be interested in learning about any that come to mind to you.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Kermitt)
Post #: 2586
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 9:18:37 PM   
CrusssDaddy

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 8/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

Cruss it is good to see your still here if nothing else you sure will light up the posting war as usual. Been kinda dull without you I for one respect your opinions and the right to say them. As for capitals I bought a new keyboard without caps lock hopefully it will improve my posts and even an old dog like me has room for improvement and again thank you for correcting me deeply appreciated. Last comment for all of snide remarks about the game and Matrix you make you seem to be hanging around for some reason I cannot fathom, could you enlighten all of us PLEASE!

Bo


Why? Like a digital Waiting for Godot, I find this spectacle absurd and entertaining.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2587
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 9:53:14 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16015
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

.......... I find this spectacle absurd and entertaining.
Warspite1

HeHe that reminds me of you - except for the entertaining bit of course

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 2588
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 10:21:02 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

Cruss it is good to see your still here if nothing else you sure will light up the posting war as usual. Been kinda dull without you I for one respect your opinions and the right to say them. As for capitals I bought a new keyboard without caps lock hopefully it will improve my posts and even an old dog like me has room for improvement and again thank you for correcting me deeply appreciated. Last comment for all of snide remarks about the game and Matrix you make you seem to be hanging around for some reason I cannot fathom, could you enlighten all of us PLEASE!

Bo


Why? Like a digital Waiting for Godot, I find this spectacle absurd and entertaining.


Ah yes Godot, very interesting, Vladmir and Estragon [hope you don't mind the capitals Cruss] I read in act 2 by Samuel Becket they arrived in a nick of time in the month of July not sure of the year though

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/14/2012 10:23:48 PM >

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 2589
RE: When? - 2/15/2012 12:08:22 AM   
Roddo

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/14/2012
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Hi guys,

sounds like I have pretty much the same history as Kermitt, except I have played WIF a few more times and have a larger group of WIF buddies.
We all would have played much more WIF if we had a reliable, user-friendly, netplay version of WIF. Having kids puts a crimp in having the dinner table taken up by maps and counters for a couple of weeks at a time.

I am sure all my boardgaming friends would be very happy to pay $90US for a copy regardless of AI as long as it was proper WIF, bug free, user friendly, had a well documented players manual and could be played solo or netplay.

I don't know if there are hundred's of thousands like me out there, but I am sure there are ten's of thousands.

Obviously AI is needed to appeal to wargamers and a wider market, but I would just prefer an earlier release that meets the above requirements and a later version that has the AI(sorry, Bo).

I am in awe at the work Steve has done and will chase down all my old boardgaming friends to pass onto their boardgaming friends to buy this game when it is released.
Hopefully enough units will sell to reward Steve sufficiently for all his hard work and encourage Matrix to give him lots of resources for further development.
Days of Decision, anybody?

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 2590
RE: When? - 2/15/2012 12:43:43 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roddo

Hi guys,

sounds like I have pretty much the same history as Kermitt, except I have played WIF a few more times and have a larger group of WIF buddies.
We all would have played much more WIF if we had a reliable, user-friendly, netplay version of WIF. Having kids puts a crimp in having the dinner table taken up by maps and counters for a couple of weeks at a time.

I am sure all my boardgaming friends would be very happy to pay $90US for a copy regardless of AI as long as it was proper WIF, bug free, user friendly, had a well documented players manual and could be played solo or netplay.

I don't know if there are hundred's of thousands like me out there, but I am sure there are ten's of thousands.

Obviously AI is needed to appeal to wargamers and a wider market, but I would just prefer an earlier release that meets the above requirements and a later version that has the AI(sorry, Bo).

I am in awe at the work Steve has done and will chase down all my old boardgaming friends to pass onto their boardgaming friends to buy this game when it is released.
Hopefully enough units will sell to reward Steve sufficiently for all his hard work and encourage Matrix to give him lots of resources for further development.
Days of Decision, anybody?


Apology accepted welcome to the forums Roddo glad to have you here and will be waiting with anticipation for your input when the game is released. What AI, have no idea what you are reffering to, must be another Bo. Maybe Bo Peep?

Bo

(in reply to Roddo)
Post #: 2591
RE: When? - 2/15/2012 4:21:12 PM   
gridley

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I'm going to try to respond to this, not on Steve's behalf, but of my own volition. Since I am not Steve or a Matrix employee, I have to adhere to the Non-Disclosure Agreement, and that might make what I have to say seem a little cryptic, so I'm going to apologize for that before I say anything.
-----
I think there have been a lot of signs that MWiF is closing on a release date over the last 6 months. A good example of this is the work that Steve and the beta-testers did to finish up the Players Manual last summer, and his announcement in the Montly Reports that it had gone to the Matrix Games editors. You can't have a manual without a game that works the way you expect it to work, can you? Other indications are the Barbarossa AAR that Orm and I ran in the early autumn, the one I am running now, and the fact that bugs have started to trickle down to the "rules violation" variety instead of the "game crash" type. Also, some of the most annoying large-scale issues have been dealt with: supply, Vichy Declaration, and most of the Production Planning issues are now cleared up. Yes, a few remain, but there's still time to finish those up.

If you look back through the Monthly Reports, there are even more indications.

In November, Steve announced the addition of sound effects to the game. That's pure chrome, and that kind of thing can only mean that the game is coming close to completion. How close, I can't say. That isn't just due to the NDA I signed, but because there still could be bumps in the road ahead.

In July, Steve settled on the Optional Rules that would not be included in the initial release. He also listed the ones he hoped to include if he could. That's another good indication that things are winding down to a finish. Unfortunately, Steve had some serious health issues the next 2 months, and that limited the time he could put in to some extent. I have to say, though, that the entire beta-test team did a good job picking up the slack.

There are, however, a lot of things that remain to be determined. Which rules are going to be included and which aren't going to make the cut? How quickly can we finalize all of the standardized screen layouts, tutorials, and "educational" material? (Some is completely finished, but some isn't). There is a lot of work still to be done. Much of this work relies on volunteers, and there are any number of things that can interfere with a volunteer's ability to contribute to his potential (pneumonia, for instance ).
-----
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?

Steve reads through everything that is posted in this forum, and he responds to as much as time allows. Believe me, it is a very time-consuming endeavor. In the work I've been doing on the Global War AAR, I'd say that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of my time is spent creating detailed explanations of what is happening, not only for posting in the forum, but also for the notes I take on the progress of the game and any bugs I might encounter. Only about 1/3 of my "MWiF time" is actually spent running the game itself. I don't actually know how many lines of code MWiF has, but I know that Steve inserts notes on ideas he has for coding certain aspects of the program, and also on how some of the bug fixes were created so that he can reference it later if something should go wrong again.

Steve is also responsible to Matrix Games, himself, and the beta-testers for what he says (as we all are), not to mention the readers of these forums. None of us can just shoot off a quick post to answer questions, especially Steve. We have to put serious thought into what we say, so that we don't end up misleading anyone. That also takes time.

As to the level of involvement the people from Matrix should have in the forums, I really have no opinion. In my work as a beta-tester, I've found them to be fairly responsive to my needs, but I've had little need to contact them. Most of the questions or suggestions I've had went to Steve, and when it was appropriate, he referred me to the Matrix people.
-----
In conclusion:

I count myself very lucky to be involved in the process of helping to build this incredible game. Steve would not have said anything if he were not confident. (I think he learned his lesson on that one back in 2009 -- no, Steve, that isn't a dig). But I do know, based on my involvement, that Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before, to get this finished as elegantly as possible. Please accept that, and know that your curiosity will be answered in time.

Thanks for reading this, and I hope it helps to clear up some of the confusion surrounding Steve's comments. I will apologize once again for anything that may have sounded cryptic, and I'd also like to apologize to Steve if I have said anything to mis-represent his views.

-Aaron



First, I’d just like to let you know where I stand on a couple issues. One, I am a very patient person. This product can be released in July 2012 or July 2014, it makes no difference to me. Two, the important gameplay option to me is Netplay, an AI would be nice but Netplay is what is important. All I want is a successful release that makes Steve rich, Matrix a lot of money, ADG whatever they get out of it, and me...a game that will continue to be supported.

Now to respond to a few things Aaron mentioned.

Aaron points out a lot of indicators that a release was imminent. I will just show you one item’s progression that told me a release was not.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

January 1, 2012 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

Here is 2011 in review.

Accomplishments of 2011

Artificial Intelligence (AI)
Peter finished the geographic breakdown for the AI Opponent. To go with that, I revised the documentation on the AIO command structure so each element of the geography has a corresponding decision maker. There are 16 Theaters of Operation (TOs) that span the global map. Within each TO there is a breakdown for naval units into Sea Area Groups (which contain individual Sea Areas) and for land units into Areas of Operations (which contain Land Regions).

I changed the fundamental map data structure to include information on the geographical breakdown. This should have zero effect on game play as far as human players are concerned. The change to the Terrain data adds a new field to each land hex to store the Land Region ID #. Along with this I added a new field to the Sea Area data to store the Sea Area Group ID #. And as the final pieces, I created simple files listing the Theaters of Operation, Areas of Operation, Land Regions, and Sea Area Groups which hold the details on each of those elements, including cross references. In practice, this means that the AI Opponent code can trace any land hex back to its LR, AO, and TO, and can trace an all-sea hex back to its sea area, SAG, and TO. In order to validate the new data I added a (debug) line under the Main form that shows and updates the TO, AO, LR, and SAG values as the cursor is scrolled across each hex.

The 16 TOs are: Western Europe, Eastern Europe (up to Siberia), Mediterranean, East Africa, West Africa, Middle East, North Asia (i.e., Siberia), South Asia (i.e., India), East Asia (i.e. China & Japan), Southeast Asia, Oceania (i.e., Australia), Pacific Ocean (central), Atlantic North America, Atlantic South America, Pacific North America, and Pacific South America. There are 126 AOs and 320 LRs. The major task remaining is to change the data file for the terrain, adding a digit to the end of the row of data for each land hex. There are 70,200 hexes, each of which has its own row of data. Mercifully, the all-sea hexes do not need to be edited (they use the default value).

The greatest advantage that a human player has over the AIO is the ability to literally ‘see’ the map. For the AIO it is just a bunch of incohesive data. Using the geographical data, the AIO can now assess the strength of the forces on both sides in a land region and decide whether to attack, maneuver, defend, or retreat. The same applies to AOs, SAGs, and TOs. This is my best attempt to mimic a human player simply looking at the map and making a quick assessment of the relative strengths of the two sides.

Another goal here was to provide a hierarchy of decision makers for strategic and operational decisions and a different decision maker for tactical decisions. For instance, decisions about convoy routes span multiple sea areas and are made higher up in the chain of command, while decisions concerning a specific naval combat are made by the Fleet Admiral responsible for the sea area in which the combat is taking place. Likewise army reinforcements are shipped off to various TOs, whose commander designates which AO gets them; the AO commander then designates a Land Region, whose Commanding General decides in which hex to place the new unit.

After completing the geographic breakdown of the entire global map (a massive task which required assessing all 70,200 hexes), Peter worked on the data structures for AIO strategic plans. I had already done some preliminary work on that. The goal is to design variables for holding all the information necessary to define a strategic plan for a major power. The 3 main elements are: (1) objectives to hold/take, (2) geographical areas to defend/attack, and (3) time lines for declarations of war/offensives, with accompanying production schedules.

Some of the strategic plan data defines conditions for when something should happen (e.g., when to start building garrison units). Defining data structures for conditionals is always difficult, but Peter and I already did some of that when we were working on setup scripts. It isn’t easy to take the amorphous advice provided by the forum members and render it into a rigidly structured outline for processing by a computer program. For instance, late in the year he was grinding out the precise conditions under which France should surrender.

Rolf made some progress on completing the parser for LAIO (Language for an Artificial Intelligence Opponent) scripts.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

February 1, 2012 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

Accomplishments of January 2012

Artificial Intelligence (AI)
Nothing new.




We were all here when Steve announced the group of Optional Rules that would not be included. There was not even a ripple of dissent. If the hopeful 7 don’t get included I don’t think it would cause much of an uproar either. So I say the only item that Steve is reticent to mention will not be included is the AI. Even if you look at the posts since the mention of July 1st they have all been about the AI included or not, the other stuff is nice but doesn’t really matter and none have been mentioned. Do you really believe a simple line stating “don’t worry the AI is going to be included” would detract one single minute from programming? For years it was made clear that a release without an AI would not happen. We were told in order for the release to be successful it had to have an AI, and I agree.

Now that it looks like they have reversed their decision what is there plan? Are they planning on doing a soft release without any significant advertising? Basically, selling it to people already with an interest in the game. Now let’s say they sell it to us for $100.00 with no AI. I wonder how many will sell;

- 500pcs for Revenue of $50,000
- 1000pcs for Revenue of $100,000
- 2000pcs for Revenue of $200,000
- 3000pcs for Revenue of $300,000

Even if 2000 units are sold it is a drop in the bucket for a product 8 years in development...especially when divided between the 3 parties. Do you really think 3000 would sell with no AI? So why do it? What happens if it is a total flop and we all wait for the product to come out with the AI included? Does that lead to more bad business decisions.

Now let’s say they advertise a little bit. In this day an age of so many products vying for our money, what happens to the casual observer who finds MWiF, see’s it has no AI and passes…will he come back later?

Like I said in my previous 2 posts, I think it is a mistake to change the release from a development based date to an accountant generated date.

For those thinking that thier plans are none of our business, you are right. They don't have to say anything. But when I see them making what I believe are major errors in judgment I am allowed to say my peace.







< Message edited by gridley -- 2/15/2012 5:16:41 PM >

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 2592
RE: When? - 2/15/2012 5:46:53 PM   
rmdesantis


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/25/2007
Status: offline
It's probably been 20 years since I've played WIF. Like others, I'm sure, career/family/moves/life got in the way and I find myself far from great friends with whom I played WIF nearly constantly for 6 or so years prior. For the past 4-5 years I've been reading this forum, and will absolutely purchase the game - in whatever form it takes - when it comes up for sale. I view it as a way to recapture friendships, interacting with people who are still dear to me but are geographically distant. For me - Netplay isn't very important, but PBEM is critical because it's probably the only way I can see - and I'm speaking just for myself and my friends - for us to play the game in our current lives.

I don't think the AI is terribly important for experienced players; people who've played the game regularly (and I read -with some jealousy - about many of the posters to this forum and their substantial current experience with rules that didn't exist when I played) can reasonably expect their current opponents to get the game as well and will continue to play against live opponents using an electronic medium. But I have to believe that an AI is critical for any successful launch because I have to imagine that Matrix wants to actually make money on the product, to recover the substantial investment they've made so far. And to do that, they have to expand the base to casual board wargamers and people new/entering the hobby. And that requires some kind of AI - it doesn't have to be a particularly challenging AI because even a bad AI will be very instructional to people in learning how to play this extremely complicated game. This is a game that requires lots of decisions - going back and forth between players many times within the same turn - allowing individuals not only to plan but also react to the actions of their opponents. That's a very different thought process than a simple UGOIGO model.

So while I don't care about the AI, I care that the AI exists because a robust customer base ensures continuing updates, mods, expansions, and support. I've waited several decades for something like this to come along - I'm content to wait longer until it's really ready to go.

Mike

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 2593
RE: When? - 2/15/2012 6:26:17 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
Rmdesantis well said appreciate your input, it shows that even though you do not participate in the every day forums you are keeping an eye on the game. Nor are many others participating even though this last week has energized the forums. The AI has by its very nature became the major issue again. One side of the coin, lets get it out and worry about an AI later, the other side, I have to have an AI, if a coin had a third side it would be, care less either way. I know ahead of time this won't be well received, I respect every ones opinion here, even Crussdaddys rants, but sometimes I get this eerie feeling that some boardgame players think Steve and Matrix is building MWIF for them and no one else it is understandable selfishness on their part, I for one do not blame them for their feelings. And it would be appreciated if they in turn would appreciate people with AI feelings. It would be very interesting if wargamers not only from Matrix's forums but also Battlefronts forums who might consider buying this great game were to express their opinion on AI or no AI. I for one do not think the no AI die hards here would wan't to see that poll. The die is probably already been cast at Matrix and what will be will be! This might be causing Steve a major dilemna, one I am going to put this game out in July without an AI and take my chances on sales. Two I will not be able to keep my July announcement of completion because even though I have not completed the AI, I had better offer at least a doable AI so I will have to add another year for completion. If that were to be the case then I say put it out without the AI with a guaranteed commitment from Matrix that an AI will follow shortly and if not done within a reasonable amount of time a full refund to those who would wish their money back. I feel that is a reasonable proposition and fair to all parties involved here.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/15/2012 6:28:07 PM >

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2594
RE: When? - 2/15/2012 11:34:18 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 726
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

Rmdesantis well said appreciate your input, it shows that even though you do not participate in the every day forums you are keeping an eye on the game. Nor are many others participating even though this last week has energized the forums. The AI has by its very nature became the major issue again. One side of the coin, lets get it out and worry about an AI later, the other side, I have to have an AI, if a coin had a third side it would be, care less either way. I know ahead of time this won't be well received, I respect every ones opinion here, even Crussdaddys rants, but sometimes I get this eerie feeling that some boardgame players think Steve and Matrix is building MWIF for them and no one else it is understandable selfishness on their part, I for one do not blame them for their feelings. And it would be appreciated if they in turn would appreciate people with AI feelings. It would be very interesting if wargamers not only from Matrix's forums but also Battlefronts forums who might consider buying this great game were to express their opinion on AI or no AI. I for one do not think the no AI die hards here would wan't to see that poll. The die is probably already been cast at Matrix and what will be will be! This might be causing Steve a major dilemna, one I am going to put this game out in July without an AI and take my chances on sales. Two I will not be able to keep my July announcement of completion because even though I have not completed the AI, I had better offer at least a doable AI so I will have to add another year for completion. If that were to be the case then I say put it out without the AI with a guaranteed commitment from Matrix that an AI will follow shortly and if not done within a reasonable amount of time a full refund to those who would wish their money back. I feel that is a reasonable proposition and fair to all parties involved here.

Bo


Bo, first, it's not a matter of AI yes or no. It's a matter of game with AI in (lets say) 2 years or game without AI now and another version with AI in 2 years. All are advantages about the second option, it's exactly the same except that there will be some earlier income and that part of the public (exactly the WIF fan part) will have a version of the game 2 years earlier.

Second, any case, it would not be selfishness but egocentrism.

Third, the fact that there is an earlier version is no obstacle for a future AI version, for all the masses hungry of hardcore stategy gaming you envision.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2595
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 12:41:24 AM   
Lingering Frey

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 2/16/2012
Status: offline
(first time poster, 23 year wif player, lurking on the "when" forum for ... a long time)

I have no clue, of course, what is behind the July date, but consider also another possibility. I've noticed a few companies lately selling "Beta" versions of their game with an equivalent price discount off the "release" version.

They could release without a functioning AI and slap the label "Beta" on it. They could easily make it clear that the Beta version doesn't have a "computer opponent", but the final version will. They could frame it as simply "testing Netplay" or something.

The profile of the game would be increased, with far less chance of damaging the brand appeal when it comes out with AI. (If it ever does. As I told my friend Larry about 15 years ago...if they ever make an AI that can play WiF well enough to provide even a minor challenge, we should all dig holes in the ground. That AI will go all Terminator on us.)

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 2596
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 1:43:08 AM   
Orm


Posts: 5465
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Welcome to the forum Lingering Frey.

_____________________________

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

(in reply to Lingering Frey)
Post #: 2597
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 2:11:31 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

Damn I knew the word selfishness would be the wrong word to use, I went back about a year and a half and read all the posts and I went back to when I joined in jan. 2005 under the name of Willycube an the AI is a dirty word here then and now. I am trying to come up with a word other than selfishness and egocentrism Jose so we can reach a middle ground here. What part of "if the game comes out without an AI, all money would be refunded if say Matix did not have the AI one year later, of course in writing" And of course they could renege but that might be a disaster. And what part of "whats done is done for July's completion date" do some people not get it, not referring to just you Jose. I am not fighting the no AI, and I did say I would buy it without an AI, but from my viewpoint until the AI comes out this will not be a complete game. Do I have illusions about a good AI in a game this complex with 42 million hex's No I do not, if Steve gets a soso AI up and running I will be happy as a lark with some hope of a better AI down the road. I would really like to know how many of you WIF boardgamers are playing PBEM or Net play right now with any game. And if you are not playing or playing very little how do you know that Matrix MWIF pbem will be to your liking. Not an argument just curious. It almost sounds like Bo shut the hell up Steve might be listening to you about the AI. Rest easy I would be the last person he would listen to. Its his game and he will do what he feels best for all concerned.

Bo

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2598
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 2:21:21 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

(first time poster, 23 year wif player, lurking on the "when" forum for ... a long time)

I have no clue, of course, what is behind the July date, but consider also another possibility. I've noticed a few companies lately selling "Beta" versions of their game with an equivalent price discount off the "release" version.

They could release without a functioning AI and slap the label "Beta" on it. They could easily make it clear that the Beta version doesn't have a "computer opponent", but the final version will. They could frame it as simply "testing Netplay" or something.

The profile of the game would be increased, with far less chance of damaging the brand appeal when it comes out with AI. (If it ever does. As I told my friend Larry about 15 years ago...if they ever make an AI that can play WiF well enough to provide even a minor challenge, we should all dig holes in the ground. That AI will go all Terminator on us.)

Hi Lingering welcome could use some new input around here Please I do not want you to dig a hole in the ground, I am digging a hole in the ground as I seem to be the only one defending an AI. When you have chance put the dirt back in the hole with me in it. There are people who do not like net play or pbem, have not really found one yet outside of me I said before and will say again I want to play when I want to play not when its convenient for others, that's not being mean its the way I feel right or wrong. I know my hole is getting deeper

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/16/2012 2:26:15 AM >

(in reply to Lingering Frey)
Post #: 2599
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 2:43:28 AM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1129
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline
For what it's worth, Just my opinion. I must have an AI or I won't buy.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2600
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 3:26:28 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

For what it's worth, Just my opinion. I must have an AI or I won't buy.

Hi vonRocko, what its worth, nothing your opinion thats okay I respect it.

Bo

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 2601
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 5:04:16 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 17932
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

(first time poster, 23 year wif player, lurking on the "when" forum for ... a long time)

I have no clue, of course, what is behind the July date, but consider also another possibility. I've noticed a few companies lately selling "Beta" versions of their game with an equivalent price discount off the "release" version.

They could release without a functioning AI and slap the label "Beta" on it. They could easily make it clear that the Beta version doesn't have a "computer opponent", but the final version will. They could frame it as simply "testing Netplay" or something.

The profile of the game would be increased, with far less chance of damaging the brand appeal when it comes out with AI. (If it ever does. As I told my friend Larry about 15 years ago...if they ever make an AI that can play WiF well enough to provide even a minor challenge, we should all dig holes in the ground. That AI will go all Terminator on us.)

Welcome to the forum.

Have no fear of a Terminator AI from MWIF. It would view the world as hexagons and sea areas. If things got really desperate, we could always hide out at one of the poles, since they aren't on the MWIF map.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Lingering Frey)
Post #: 2602
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 6:55:39 AM   
mlees


Posts: 2261
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
Hi.

I haven't been around since a while. I since lurk through once a quarter, and check out this section, and the "War in the Pacific" forum. :)

I would like to thank everybody who keeps the hope of this title alive. This is one of those "if I was emperor of the universe, what computer games would I order to be made?" selections.

I can't imagine that Steve thought it was going to take so long to get the game. When did he start? 2005?

I've managed to play CWIF solo, I think a much more stable version with no opponent would be a dream come true.


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2603
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 8:33:13 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 726
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


Damn I knew the word selfishness would be the wrong word to use, I went back about a year and a half and read all the posts and I went back to when I joined in jan. 2005 under the name of Willycube an the AI is a dirty word here then and now. I am trying to come up with a word other than selfishness and egocentrism Jose so we can reach a middle ground here. What part of "if the game comes out without an AI, all money would be refunded if say Matix did not have the AI one year later, of course in writing" And of course they could renege but that might be a disaster. And what part of "whats done is done for July's completion date" do some people not get it, not referring to just you Jose. I am not fighting the no AI, and I did say I would buy it without an AI, but from my viewpoint until the AI comes out this will not be a complete game. Do I have illusions about a good AI in a game this complex with 42 million hex's No I do not, if Steve gets a soso AI up and running I will be happy as a lark with some hope of a better AI down the road. I would really like to know how many of you WIF boardgamers are playing PBEM or Net play right now with any game. And if you are not playing or playing very little how do you know that Matrix MWIF pbem will be to your liking. Not an argument just curious. It almost sounds like Bo shut the hell up Steve might be listening to you about the AI. Rest easy I would be the last person he would listen to. Its his game and he will do what he feels best for all concerned.

Bo


Bo, egocentrism is not really a wrong word, it means the person looks at the world from his own point of view, not empatizing with others. Better not to be egocentric but no way unusual in society.

As for the AI, a so-so AI is worth a bullshit, that's for sure. I can remember hundreds of comments on the TW series because although the AI is not bad, it has some serious issues, specially in sieges when, sometimes, it would simply let the army in front of the castle receive your arrows loads until there are no more arrows left and then wait for the battle end without attacking. AI must be competitive or nothing. You get bored of a so-so AI in a week if not earlier.

And judging for what I can see, and although people would prefer to die than acknowlegge it (they won't easily accept that an AI is better than them) there are AIs that are actually better than humans. And it's not a new thing. I am thinking of http://www.matrixgames.com/products/310/details/Battles.in.Italy and http://www.matrixgames.com/products/281/details/Battles.In.Normandy . Of course these are much simpler games than MWIF.

PBEM can give a lot of problems, judging for what I saw at Red Prince posts, it's a disgrace if you have to send an email to say that you are port attacking, then the other guy needs to say if there will be caps or not(email), then you attack (email) , then the other guy sends interceptors or not (email), and there is a result (email), then ground sticking, declare all ground strickes, then email, the other guy says which ones he will send caps (email), and so on. I consider it unpracticable, although I would like to be proved wrong.

And however, if somebody loves WIF, and for some reason he cannot play online (time zones or one of them cannot be a lot of time online continuatedly) they may apreciate this feature.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2604
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 9:55:31 AM   
npilgaard

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline

Excellent post, Aaron - thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
(...)
Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before,
(...)


The time this project has gone on taken into account it is a truly impressive commitment! Again, thanks for the effort, Steve!
(It must be quite satisfying, both to follow the progress of the program/game - ones very own work - and now to be able to actually see the finish line on the horizon [not sure you can use that expression in English(?) ] )

_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 2605
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 1:15:46 PM   
rmdesantis


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/25/2007
Status: offline
Joseignacio

If I recall correctly, one of the features that Steve had mentioned (years ago, it seems) to help facilitate PBEM was standing orders. That way, a lot of the petty back-and-forth communication that you are concerned about could be administered without delaying the game significantly.

Speaking personally, PBEM, in conjunction with NetPlay, would be the ideal way to handle this game. Just on this forum we have players from time zones spanning the globe - the possibility of NetPlay with someone in another time zone would practically be limited, but in concert with PBEM you could construct a reasonable game. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just saying that there is a place for all of these features.

Mike

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 2606
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 1:30:13 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 726
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
Of course, rmdesantis. I think we are all debating calmly (by now, and I hope in the future), besides nobody can be against PBEM, I was just pointing some problems that I could see about it's practicity.

Yes, standing orders may help but still is not fine tunning. I may not want to send a CAP or intercept a port attack with 3 planes totalling 3 naval factors but I may want to do it against one only plane with 3 factors or a swarm of carrier planes port attack. The same stands for ground strikes, tactical bombing... you may want to use all or any of your fighters to intercept one critical attack but not the others, wether you left the "intercept" order ON or OFF you need to specify for these cases, which are frequent.

Of course those without other options will have to use whatever they can use, including Netplay, which will be an advance from not being able to play or diving hundreds of km or miles to be able to hold a game.

However, I am kind of reluctant to believe we cannot find some dozen opponents in our time zone, specially those living in Europe or USA, don't know elsewhere. A different matter is wanting to play with old friends who live in a far time zone...

(in reply to rmdesantis)
Post #: 2607
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 5:05:26 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
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Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona our bulls are out west thank god Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing the Commonwealth, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France It is the end of July and Mrs Rojo says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe]

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/16/2012 7:45:16 PM >

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2608
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 7:05:10 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 2536
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona our bulls are out west thank god Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe]

Bo

I've always got my Lap Top with me on vacation...
Together with all those very nice WiFi points, I think I would be all right, wouldn't I?

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2609
RE: When? - 2/16/2012 7:30:08 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2474
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona our bulls are out west thank god Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe]

Bo

I've always got my Lap Top with me on vacation...
Together with all those very nice WiFi points, I think I would be all right, wouldn't I?


Thats why I did not put you in that game Centuur I knew you would bring up the laptop and ruin my presentation

Bo

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 2610
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