Matrix Games Forums

War in the West gets its first update!Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm version 2.08 is now available!Command gets huge update!Order of Battle: Pacific Featured on Weekly Streaming SessionA new fight for Battle Academy!Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager is out for Mac!The definitive wargame of the Western Front is out now! War in the West gets teaser trailer and Twitch Stream!New Preview AAR for War in the West!War in the West Manual preview
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: When?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: When? Page: <<   < prev  84 85 [86] 87 88   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 12:01:50 AM   
BallyJ

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline
Since the issue of "AI or no AI" has come up again.
I will buy this game with or with out the AI.
I wish everyone working on it all the best.
Looking forward to a release ASAP.

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 2551
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 3:09:54 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 19320
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.


I agree Num with you 100% as I have adg's wif and I have learned a lot from it [no AI] and with the rules and the roll of the dice anything can happen. But after awhile it starts to get a little stale, but that is just me probably. I believe that I would be helpless against most of the board game players here and before I could hope to challenge them I would need a lot of practice and one solution would be an AI good, bad or soso.

Bo

When choosing an opponent for NetPlay, I think that the preference in optional rules is going to be a strong indicator of how experienced the player is. If you just play against opponents who want to use the Novice set of optional rules, you are unlikely to run into someone who has been playing the game for years.

Playing against players of roughly equal skill level is a good way to learn. You can gradually work your way up to better players. The converse of this is that if you play against someone who is much, much better, well, neither of you is going to enjoy the game very much.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2552
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 1:21:14 PM   
Manic Inertia

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline
Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 2/12/2012 7:06:45 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2553
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 2:03:39 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 20262
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.
Warspite1

My my, what an unpleasant post.

You play a game almost daily? Mmmm, perhaps you may like to get out more - who knows, you may grow up and learn how to communicate with people in proper fashion.

"armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs.
fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking
I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat
Wake up and smell the poo

You pride yourself on being able to speak with gravitas about a game, and of course you could choose to to that, and get your points across in a polite and sensible fashion. But given the wording and tone of your post, I suspect that you are probably incapable of understanding that your post was totally out of order - indeed it would be offensive if you weren't so ridiculous; how old are you for goodness sake? Second thoughts don't answer that, I don't want to know.




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/12/2012 2:30:58 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Manic Inertia)
Post #: 2554
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 3:13:30 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2169
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.


Here is the less than 1 minute of attention you deserve troll.

(it would have been less than 30 seconds, but I had to wipe the cheetos stains off my fingers in my Moms basement ).

Someone get the ban hammer out please. Sheesh.

(in reply to Manic Inertia)
Post #: 2555
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 4:29:46 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.


I agree Num with you 100% as I have adg's wif and I have learned a lot from it [no AI] and with the rules and the roll of the dice anything can happen. But after awhile it starts to get a little stale, but that is just me probably. I believe that I would be helpless against most of the board game players here and before I could hope to challenge them I would need a lot of practice and one solution would be an AI good, bad or soso.

Bo

When choosing an opponent for NetPlay, I think that the preference in optional rules is going to be a strong indicator of how experienced the player is. If you just play against opponents who want to use the Novice set of optional rules, you are unlikely to run into someone who has been playing the game for years.

Playing against players of roughly equal skill level is a good way to learn. You can gradually work your way up to better players. The converse of this is that if you play against someone who is much, much better, well, neither of you is going to enjoy the game very much.

Uhhhhhhhh Steve, your advice is well taken about netplay, but negative me is reading between the lines and I am not happy about the reading I will say no more about that until July

Bo

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2556
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 4:34:56 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

No obesity here just balding, uh whats your name, I feel sorry for you being am alien because you never had a Pat's or Geno's south philly cheesesteak

Bo

(in reply to Manic Inertia)
Post #: 2557
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 4:43:19 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.
Warspite1

My my, what an unpleasant post.

You play a game almost daily? Mmmm, perhaps you may like to get out more - who knows, you may grow up and learn how to communicate with people in proper fashion.

"armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs.
fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking
I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat
Wake up and smell the poo

You pride yourself on being able to speak with gravitas about a game, and of course you could choose to to that, and get your points across in a polite and sensible fashion. But given the wording and tone of your post, I suspect that you are probably incapable of understanding that your post was totally out of order - indeed it would be offensive if you weren't so ridiculous; how old are you for goodness sake? Second thoughts don't answer that, I don't want to know.




Great Warspite, right on, I told you the Crussdaddy's of the world would be rearing their ugly heads soon and here we go right on schedule. Oh lord I love a fight The forums are waking up and Bo is gearing up [I think that's a wif pun]
Just kidding, maybe!

Bo

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2558
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 4:50:49 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you mostly "armchair", obese, opinionated, american, middle-aged 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been beating his meat designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you fat american middle-aged 'solo' game dreamers are rubbing yourselves into a deluded frenzy thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up and smell the poo : THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.


Here is the less than 1 minute of attention you deserve troll.

(it would have been less than 30 seconds, but I had to wipe the cheetos stains off my fingers in my Moms basement ).

Someone get the ban hammer out please. Sheesh.

Klydon everyone is entitled to their oponion, that is why we have forums. He is not trolling he is expressing his feelings and he is allowed to, as long as no foul language is use I see no reason to ban anyone. With that said I have to agree with you

Bo

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 2559
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 7:11:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 19320
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.

The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Manic Inertia)
Post #: 2560
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 7:50:31 PM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline
Hey Manic, your thoughts are welcome, but remember this is a public forum so keep it clean and there's no reason to personally attack anyone. You may be right about the financial viability issue. We will have to wait and see. I can't believe you speak this way to the people you play WIF with in person. I'm sure it would not be tolerated.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2561
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 9:41:14 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4029
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

any thought is welcome .. but keep a civic tone

_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 2562
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 10:04:54 PM   
gguentner

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/12/2012
Status: offline
3 manyear are - in high cost country, surely ~ 300k USD full cost. if you add to this lisences and other stuff I guess the total costs come close to 500k USD for sure. With a retails price of 80 USD it should then sell ~ 8500 times to make some profit..... - This sounds achievable

Even if a real WIF round with 4 or 5 makes surely much more fun than a sole computer game -  I will surely buy it :-)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 2563
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 10:21:19 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 19320
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gguentner

3 manyear are - in high cost country, surely ~ 300k USD full cost. if you add to this lisences and other stuff I guess the total costs come close to 500k USD for sure. With a retails price of 80 USD it should then sell ~ 8500 times to make some profit..... - This sounds achievable

Even if a real WIF round with 4 or 5 makes surely much more fun than a sole computer game -  I will surely buy it :-)


Welcome to the forum.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to gguentner)
Post #: 2564
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 10:38:38 PM   
SewerStarFish


Posts: 304
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Reading, Pa. USA
Status: offline
Hey, I may be obese, I may be opinionated,  I may be American,  I may be middle-aged .... but I am not armchair.

I do agree with gguentner, there has to be a number of units at a certain price that makes the game profitable. When, not if, it is released I'm betting I will be happy with the product and the price. I don't have any AI with my present editions -- if one is included in the first release or later it will be an improvement. And the rules refereeing will be worth the price outright.

What makes me happiest is how many bugs that Steve and the betas have eliminated. The open reporting by Steve of his trials and triumphs has made a believer out of me. I'm in as soon as it's available for payment. So 1 down and however many to go for profitability.

(in reply to gguentner)
Post #: 2565
RE: When? - 2/12/2012 11:56:06 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: online
I don't know diddley about the game market; I really only play this game any more. But I do know how much people like playing World in Flames once they try; it has a pretty high repeat factor, imo. So the only way to grow it from hundreds or thousands is to get it out there.

One thing I like about a computer edition coming out is perhaps a bit of feature creep, but is something that can only come along after a full, rules-enforced game is published. I hope there will be somewhere out there that can keep copies of completed games; I would hope someone would be interested in using such a pile of data on results in the game to work on future improvements in the game. If an initial release comes out without an AI, such a trove of data could perhaps also somehow be used in AI development I would hope.

I think one thing that would help grow the base of players is a bit of focus on a somewhat neglected way to play the game: WiF Classic. This can get you into the game a lot faster than trying to dive into a game of Super Deluxe. I know some very good players who play Classic to have shorter games, and more of them. I like bells and whistles, so I don't see myself doing that anytime soon. But perhaps one of those pre-defined sets of Optional rules could be one for a pure Classic game, albeit with Ships in Flames. The lower counter density makes things easier to learn all around.

(in reply to SewerStarFish)
Post #: 2566
RE: When? - 2/13/2012 12:46:50 AM   
wodin


Posts: 8108
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
I'm confused. Is there going to be an AI or not?

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 2567
RE: When? - 2/13/2012 2:30:55 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm confused. Is there going to be an AI or not?

ahhh Wodin your confused join the club, read Steve's post 2551, if you dissect it properly you might have your answer about an AI.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/13/2012 2:32:28 AM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 2568
RE: When? - 2/13/2012 2:39:51 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

Hey Steve removing all those needless adjectives probably took you longer than doing the AI

Bo

(in reply to Manic Inertia)
Post #: 2569
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 1:05:36 AM   
gridley

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline
I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2570
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 1:31:52 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 19320
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 2571
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 4:06:45 AM   
gridley

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.


Of course it would have been better if you aren't ready. In case you have forgotten, you decided not to give release dates after you missed July 1st, 2009, then Sept 2009. I know that sounds snippy, which is not like me, but I thought it had to be said.

No one forced you to respond to Joseignacio request. You could have wisely ignored it like the previous hundred times it had been asked. But something did make you respond this time.

I have followed your posts on this site for...a long time. I have seen your graphs. You have included us in many of your thought processes. I know you would not have given a July 1st date off the top of your head. You know what would be included with such a deadline. To announce it would cost you no time whatsover. If you aren't inclined, you wouldn't even have to read our long discussions and zillions of questions/issues either.

The bottom line is I really don't care what is to be included on an initial release, I'm going to buy it. However, I do believe you are making a mistake not anonouncing it. I remember the excitement on this board before your June 2009 update. It will take a few months for that excitement level to build again.

I also believe you are making a mistake if after all these years you are releasing a product you had not intended. But I do understand that sometimes compromises have to be made. I wish you the best and you will continue to have my support.


< Message edited by gridley -- 2/14/2012 4:14:35 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2572
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 4:30:35 AM   
CrusssDaddy

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 8/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Hey Dudes.
Some of you might remember my user name. My real name's Tim, and I'm a keen WiFFE enthusiast who plays the game almost daily and who's attended both AusWiFCons, 2010 qnd 2011. I was part of an Allied Team that claimed a draw against skilled European opposition in 2010, and part of an Allied Team that won against Harry Rowland and two of his best freinds in 2011. I think that entitles me to speak with some gravity about WiFFE, regardless of whatever you 'solo' WiFFErs might hold as significant insights into how to play the game effectively.

This Computer WiF is a waste of space, commercially speaking. It won't work. I feel sorry for the guy who's been designing it for these last few years .. I love WiF, and I'd buy it myself, but you 'solo' game dreamers are deluded thinking that WiF has a sufficiently evolved market for a viable, commercial PC based distribution. Wake up: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US. It doesn't. Sorry.

EDITED by Moderator to remove needless adjectives.

The When thread has 430,700+ hits and the Monthly Reports thread has 16,650+.

The few hundred players you envision must spend a lot of time reading those posts over and over again.


Is 16,650+ the number of hits, or the number of monthly reports? Ha, I couldn't resist...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2573
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 4:40:46 AM   
CrusssDaddy

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 8/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.


No need for you to get into this discussion, now would be the perfect time for one of the Matrix crew to drop in for a visit. Been a couple years since their last comment in this forum, certainly someone from the marketing department could throw a bone to the patient dogs in this kennel. Gridley is right - something changed to merit dropping the tired "It's done when it's done line." With less than 4 months to go until D-Day, it's certainly not too early for Matrix to comment directly to the forum, if not officially via a press release.

Bo, it's good to see you're no longer writing ALL IN CAPS!!! When someone says to me "Old people can never adapt to new technology," I will point proudly to your achievements in reply.

Michael Baldur, now that Peyton Manning has played his last game and stands second to Eli in Super Bowl rings, don't you think it's time to change your sig?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2574
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 7:27:29 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1054
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.



Thanks for the info, sorry about the problems my question may have brought,

Steve, I think you simply should keep on doing your excellent job and let people wait 4 months more. It's obvious some will have some doubts and others will complain. It's obvious too, that after some days most troll shaped comments will decrease and we'll come back to almost normality (considering the excitation about a game wished for so long that is finally arriving).

Don't lose hart so close to completion. You rule!!!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2575
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 11:41:07 AM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.


Of course it would have been better if you aren't ready. In case you have forgotten, you decided not to give release dates after you missed July 1st, 2009, then Sept 2009. I know that sounds snippy, which is not like me, but I thought it had to be said.

No one forced you to respond to Joseignacio request. You could have wisely ignored it like the previous hundred times it had been asked. But something did make you respond this time.

I have followed your posts on this site for...a long time. I have seen your graphs. You have included us in many of your thought processes. I know you would not have given a July 1st date off the top of your head. You know what would be included with such a deadline. To announce it would cost you no time whatsover. If you aren't inclined, you wouldn't even have to read our long discussions and zillions of questions/issues either.

The bottom line is I really don't care what is to be included on an initial release, I'm going to buy it. However, I do believe you are making a mistake not anonouncing it. I remember the excitement on this board before your June 2009 update. It will take a few months for that excitement level to build again.

I also believe you are making a mistake if after all these years you are releasing a product you had not intended. But I do understand that sometimes compromises have to be made. I wish you the best and you will continue to have my support.

I'm going to try to respond to this, not on Steve's behalf, but of my own volition. Since I am not Steve or a Matrix employee, I have to adhere to the Non-Disclosure Agreement, and that might make what I have to say seem a little cryptic, so I'm going to apologize for that before I say anything.
-----
I think there have been a lot of signs that MWiF is closing on a release date over the last 6 months. A good example of this is the work that Steve and the beta-testers did to finish up the Players Manual last summer, and his announcement in the Montly Reports that it had gone to the Matrix Games editors. You can't have a manual without a game that works the way you expect it to work, can you? Other indications are the Barbarossa AAR that Orm and I ran in the early autumn, the one I am running now, and the fact that bugs have started to trickle down to the "rules violation" variety instead of the "game crash" type. Also, some of the most annoying large-scale issues have been dealt with: supply, Vichy Declaration, and most of the Production Planning issues are now cleared up. Yes, a few remain, but there's still time to finish those up.

If you look back through the Monthly Reports, there are even more indications.

In November, Steve announced the addition of sound effects to the game. That's pure chrome, and that kind of thing can only mean that the game is coming close to completion. How close, I can't say. That isn't just due to the NDA I signed, but because there still could be bumps in the road ahead.

In July, Steve settled on the Optional Rules that would not be included in the initial release. He also listed the ones he hoped to include if he could. That's another good indication that things are winding down to a finish. Unfortunately, Steve had some serious health issues the next 2 months, and that limited the time he could put in to some extent. I have to say, though, that the entire beta-test team did a good job picking up the slack.

There are, however, a lot of things that remain to be determined. Which rules are going to be included and which aren't going to make the cut? How quickly can we finalize all of the standardized screen layouts, tutorials, and "educational" material? (Some is completely finished, but some isn't). There is a lot of work still to be done. Much of this work relies on volunteers, and there are any number of things that can interfere with a volunteer's ability to contribute to his potential (pneumonia, for instance ).
-----
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?

Steve reads through everything that is posted in this forum, and he responds to as much as time allows. Believe me, it is a very time-consuming endeavor. In the work I've been doing on the Global War AAR, I'd say that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of my time is spent creating detailed explanations of what is happening, not only for posting in the forum, but also for the notes I take on the progress of the game and any bugs I might encounter. Only about 1/3 of my "MWiF time" is actually spent running the game itself. I don't actually know how many lines of code MWiF has, but I know that Steve inserts notes on ideas he has for coding certain aspects of the program, and also on how some of the bug fixes were created so that he can reference it later if something should go wrong again.

Steve is also responsible to Matrix Games, himself, and the beta-testers for what he says (as we all are), not to mention the readers of these forums. None of us can just shoot off a quick post to answer questions, especially Steve. We have to put serious thought into what we say, so that we don't end up misleading anyone. That also takes time.

As to the level of involvement the people from Matrix should have in the forums, I really have no opinion. In my work as a beta-tester, I've found them to be fairly responsive to my needs, but I've had little need to contact them. Most of the questions or suggestions I've had went to Steve, and when it was appropriate, he referred me to the Matrix people.
-----
In conclusion:

I count myself very lucky to be involved in the process of helping to build this incredible game. Steve would not have said anything if he were not confident. (I think he learned his lesson on that one back in 2009 -- no, Steve, that isn't a dig). But I do know, based on my involvement, that Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before, to get this finished as elegantly as possible. Please accept that, and know that your curiosity will be answered in time.

Thanks for reading this, and I hope it helps to clear up some of the confusion surrounding Steve's comments. I will apologize once again for anything that may have sounded cryptic, and I'd also like to apologize to Steve if I have said anything to mis-represent his views.

-Aaron

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to gridley)
Post #: 2576
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 12:07:03 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 3873
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley

I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about this release.

Let's take the July 1st date to actually mean something, that leaves just 3 1/2 months of programming left. Is that really enough time to finish?
And if the July 1st date doesn't mean anything, why put it out there? Why this cryptic "no comment" after mentioning the date? Was it just a bubble to see what our reactions would be? I think we deserve better than that.

I was fine with the mantra of it will be done when Steve is finished.

Now it just seems like the mantra has changed to "We have to release something...anything...Now!" And this was obviously internal, as we WiFers have pretty much become apathetic towards a release date.

Let's face it most of us on this forum will buy whatever is released. I was hoping, after so many years in developement, for a successful product release that would justify continued support on the part of Matrix and Steve. But flip flopping on major business/marketing strategies this late in the process is not a good sign.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had said nothing.

As for my "no comment", I just don't want to get involved in a long discussion about the zillion of possible questions/issues related to the initial MWIF product release. I have neither the time nor the inclination.


Of course it would have been better if you aren't ready. In case you have forgotten, you decided not to give release dates after you missed July 1st, 2009, then Sept 2009. I know that sounds snippy, which is not like me, but I thought it had to be said.

No one forced you to respond to Joseignacio request. You could have wisely ignored it like the previous hundred times it had been asked. But something did make you respond this time.

I have followed your posts on this site for...a long time. I have seen your graphs. You have included us in many of your thought processes. I know you would not have given a July 1st date off the top of your head. You know what would be included with such a deadline. To announce it would cost you no time whatsover. If you aren't inclined, you wouldn't even have to read our long discussions and zillions of questions/issues either.

The bottom line is I really don't care what is to be included on an initial release, I'm going to buy it. However, I do believe you are making a mistake not anonouncing it. I remember the excitement on this board before your June 2009 update. It will take a few months for that excitement level to build again.

I also believe you are making a mistake if after all these years you are releasing a product you had not intended. But I do understand that sometimes compromises have to be made. I wish you the best and you will continue to have my support.

I'm going to try to respond to this, not on Steve's behalf, but of my own volition. Since I am not Steve or a Matrix employee, I have to adhere to the Non-Disclosure Agreement, and that might make what I have to say seem a little cryptic, so I'm going to apologize for that before I say anything.
-----
I think there have been a lot of signs that MWiF is closing on a release date over the last 6 months. A good example of this is the work that Steve and the beta-testers did to finish up the Players Manual last summer, and his announcement in the Montly Reports that it had gone to the Matrix Games editors. You can't have a manual without a game that works the way you expect it to work, can you? Other indications are the Barbarossa AAR that Orm and I ran in the early autumn, the one I am running now, and the fact that bugs have started to trickle down to the "rules violation" variety instead of the "game crash" type. Also, some of the most annoying large-scale issues have been dealt with: supply, Vichy Declaration, and most of the Production Planning issues are now cleared up. Yes, a few remain, but there's still time to finish those up.

If you look back through the Monthly Reports, there are even more indications.

In November, Steve announced the addition of sound effects to the game. That's pure chrome, and that kind of thing can only mean that the game is coming close to completion. How close, I can't say. That isn't just due to the NDA I signed, but because there still could be bumps in the road ahead.

In July, Steve settled on the Optional Rules that would not be included in the initial release. He also listed the ones he hoped to include if he could. That's another good indication that things are winding down to a finish. Unfortunately, Steve had some serious health issues the next 2 months, and that limited the time he could put in to some extent. I have to say, though, that the entire beta-test team did a good job picking up the slack.

There are, however, a lot of things that remain to be determined. Which rules are going to be included and which aren't going to make the cut? How quickly can we finalize all of the standardized screen layouts, tutorials, and "educational" material? (Some is completely finished, but some isn't). There is a lot of work still to be done. Much of this work relies on volunteers, and there are any number of things that can interfere with a volunteer's ability to contribute to his potential (pneumonia, for instance ).
-----
I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?

Steve reads through everything that is posted in this forum, and he responds to as much as time allows. Believe me, it is a very time-consuming endeavor. In the work I've been doing on the Global War AAR, I'd say that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of my time is spent creating detailed explanations of what is happening, not only for posting in the forum, but also for the notes I take on the progress of the game and any bugs I might encounter. Only about 1/3 of my "MWiF time" is actually spent running the game itself. I don't actually know how many lines of code MWiF has, but I know that Steve inserts notes on ideas he has for coding certain aspects of the program, and also on how some of the bug fixes were created so that he can reference it later if something should go wrong again.

Steve is also responsible to Matrix Games, himself, and the beta-testers for what he says (as we all are), not to mention the readers of these forums. None of us can just shoot off a quick post to answer questions, especially Steve. We have to put serious thought into what we say, so that we don't end up misleading anyone. That also takes time.

As to the level of involvement the people from Matrix should have in the forums, I really have no opinion. In my work as a beta-tester, I've found them to be fairly responsive to my needs, but I've had little need to contact them. Most of the questions or suggestions I've had went to Steve, and when it was appropriate, he referred me to the Matrix people.
-----
In conclusion:

I count myself very lucky to be involved in the process of helping to build this incredible game. Steve would not have said anything if he were not confident. (I think he learned his lesson on that one back in 2009 -- no, Steve, that isn't a dig). But I do know, based on my involvement, that Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before, to get this finished as elegantly as possible. Please accept that, and know that your curiosity will be answered in time.

Thanks for reading this, and I hope it helps to clear up some of the confusion surrounding Steve's comments. I will apologize once again for anything that may have sounded cryptic, and I'd also like to apologize to Steve if I have said anything to mis-represent his views.

-Aaron

I don't think you need to make any apologies. But I still think that Steve should take all the time he needs to get this done properly. If that means july, it's july. If it is later, than that's the time it takes.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 2577
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 12:22:23 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1054
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?


It is not. Considering that giving a date is a valiant posture, since not everything is predictable and there was a previous serious error (whatever the reason was) he has done more than necessary.

It's true that most games give in advance a description of what they will include but this:

- Is an option that they select to do because they want to inform the followers, which is as well a marketing technicque.

- They are not facing the difficulties of developing a game like this,  having one only programmer, and trying till last second to include as many options and improvements as possible. Yes, they also try to include this or that feature till edition time, but not as complex as the ones in WIF (and MWIF).

What the game includes or not, only needs to be said when the game is for sale. It would be nice to share it with us followers, but this is no "usual product", and real WIF fans can wait 4 more months and see. Newcomers sometimes no, then they can try to enhance their spirits through





< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/14/2012 12:24:28 PM >

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 2578
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 5:04:45 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

I'll tell you the truth. It was a surprise to see Steve post his expectations here, but I don't truly think it was unfair of him to say that he wouldn't speak more on the subject. He has more important work to do than to try to describe everything that will be included in the initial release. I don't mean that to be offensive. Just ask yourself which you would prefer: Do you want a full accounting of the product Steve expects to deliver? Or would you rather have Steve spend that time finishing the product he expects to deliver?


It is not. Considering that giving a date is a valiant posture, since not everything is predictable and there was a previous serious error (whatever the reason was) he has done more than necessary.

It's true that most games give in advance a description of what they will include but this:

- Is an option that they select to do because they want to inform the followers, which is as well a marketing technicque.

- They are not facing the difficulties of developing a game like this,  having one only programmer, and trying till last second to include as many options and improvements as possible. Yes, they also try to include this or that feature till edition time, but not as complex as the ones in WIF (and MWIF).

What the game includes or not, only needs to be said when the game is for sale. It would be nice to share it with us followers, but this is no "usual product", and real WIF fans can wait 4 more months and see. Newcomers sometimes no, then they can try to enhance their spirits through





Ah Jose, if that is really you sitting there looking at the sun? I am deeply impressed but I do have a question that I would appreciate an answer to. In the picture is the sun rising or setting? The reason for my question is if the sun is rising then you are sitting on the beach of Paseo Martimo in Valencia overlooking the gulf of Valencia, very lovely, but if the sun is setting you are sitting on the beach of Pointe de San Pedro in La Coruna overlooking the Atlantic Ocean, either way it looks like your asking the gods for atonement for asking that dreaded WHEN question

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/14/2012 6:13:54 PM >

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 2579
RE: When? - 2/14/2012 5:08:19 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 3229
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline
Well said Red Prince well said, with that said is anyone haveing trouble posting, I seem to be getting an unusual delay waiting for the post to be put into the posts never had that before?

Bo

(in reply to BallyJ)
Post #: 2580
Page:   <<   < prev  84 85 [86] 87 88   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: When? Page: <<   < prev  84 85 [86] 87 88   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.164